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Re: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

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  • David W. Littlefield
    I just visited the Archeohone website, which has it s own blurb, and links to the outrageous and uninformative On the Record blurb, and fired off an eMail
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
      I just visited the Archeohone website, which has it's own blurb, and links
      to the outrageous and uninformative "On the Record" blurb, and fired off
      an eMail to Archeophone.

      I do remind fans of JRT Davies' work that he is often quoted as saying that
      the classics should be retransferred every 10 years or so because the
      technology is continually improving.

      Members of this list who don't have any Olivers or have never heard them
      should get the 18 or 20 track Naxos collection transferred by David
      Lennick. When I was transcribing the '23 Olivers, I used the Retrieval set,
      but I found Lennick's work revealing in several instances where the cornets
      were easier to distinguish.

      --Sheik

      At 11:32 AM 11/05/06 +0000, you wrote:
      >I share this opinion. I doubt if the JRT issue can be improved.
      >Hugh
      >
      >----- Original Message ----
      >From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
      >To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Sunday, 5 November, 2006 9:36:39 AM
      >Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE
      >
      >I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
      >
      >The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be bettered ?
      >
      >What source used for remastering ?
      >
      >What is non-invasive ?
      >.
    • loerchen2@aol.com
      I wouldn t rush to criticize this before you ve heard it -- a couple of my musician friends (who are also record collectors) heard it pre-release and say that
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
        I wouldn't rush to criticize this before you've heard it -- a couple of my
        musician friends (who are also record collectors) heard it pre-release and say
        that it is excellent, and is indeed better than the Retrieval set in some
        aspects....

        Sue



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • stewmclean
        Hi Sue,I would agree with you and wait and Hear the CD first.You can get some sound samples at http://www.archeophone.com/product_info.php?products_id=85 The
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
          Hi Sue,I would agree with you and wait and Hear the CD
          first.You can get some sound samples at
          http://www.archeophone.com/product_info.php?products_id=85

          The Windows Media player would be the better choice over the Real
          Audio.
          As for the CD it's self, there always improving the sound on them.
          At one time they would just sample the the 78 at the standard
          44.100/16bit.Now there using at the least the 96k/24bit and then
          mastering the CD at the standard 44.100/16bit.
          From the sample I heard,I will order the CD.
          Stewart
          ------------------------------------------------------------------
          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > I wouldn't rush to criticize this before you've heard it -- a couple
          of my
          > musician friends (who are also record collectors) heard it pre-
          release and say
          > that it is excellent, and is indeed better than the Retrieval set in
          some
          > aspects....
          >
          > Sue
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • john schott
          As others have noted, $30 is a bunch of money for music you ve probably already purchased at least twice, even if it is among the greatest music. Part of me
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
            As others have noted, $30 is a bunch of money for music you've probably
            already purchased at least twice, even if it is among the greatest music.
            Part of me feels, like some software upgrades, I'll just wait until the
            inevitable upgrade AFTER this one, when they'll be able to give me the smell
            in the room that day back in 1923, or individual sliders for each
            instrument, so that I can do my own mix.
            Archeophone is my current favorite record company (well, let's say it's
            a tie for 1st with Old Hat, Revenent, and Jazz Oracle), and if they say
            something is cool, I'm well disposed to believe them. But since, I'm
            guessing, 75% of the people their email or website reaches already have the
            J.R.T. Davies set, I sort of wish they'd meet that comparison head on, and
            really make a case for the new one.
            If anyone can help me decide if I MUST have the new set, or if that
            money would be better spent on either 1) other Archeophone reissues, 2)
            Harlem Hamfats Vols. 2-5 on Document, or 3) my son's education, I'd be most
            grateful.

            John






            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "stewmclean" <stewmclean@...>
            To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:03 PM
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


            > Hi Sue,I would agree with you and wait and Hear the CD
            > first.You can get some sound samples at
            > http://www.archeophone.com/product_info.php?products_id=85
            >
            > The Windows Media player would be the better choice over the Real
            > Audio.
            > As for the CD it's self, there always improving the sound on them.
            > At one time they would just sample the the 78 at the standard
            > 44.100/16bit.Now there using at the least the 96k/24bit and then
            > mastering the CD at the standard 44.100/16bit.
            > From the sample I heard,I will order the CD.
            > Stewart
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> I wouldn't rush to criticize this before you've heard it -- a couple
            > of my
            >> musician friends (who are also record collectors) heard it pre-
            > release and say
            >> that it is excellent, and is indeed better than the Retrieval set in
            > some
            >> aspects....
            >>
            >> Sue
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 11/4/2006
            > 5:30 PM
            >
            >
          • Michael Rader
            First remastering in decades to me suggests lacking awareness of the Retrieval set. Even so, I would wait until passing judgement over Archeophone, or
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
              "First remastering in decades" to me suggests lacking awareness of the Retrieval set.

              Even so, I would wait until passing judgement over Archeophone, or whoever it was who is producing this set (I think strictly speaking it is a separate endeavour). The blurb insinuates that the set uses a freshly assembled set of originals and that half the trick was actually playing them properly. The engineer, Doug Benson, did good work on the Hit of the Week recordings (at least Vol. 1, I don't have vol. 2) and does respect the original sound of the 78s.

              I'm not sure what kind of sources were available to John RT Davies for the Retrievals and how extensive the search for better copies was. In fact I seem to recall someone telling me that John had to resort to tape dubs made in the 1950s in some cases, since the original 78s were no longer in as good condition. David French sent me a cassette dub of one of the OKehs which sounded very good and fresh, suggesting that there would have been room for improvement, had John RT have had access to better condition originals. Archeophone highlights the *consistency* of the new set and claims that even the intro to "Zulu's Ball" sounds good .- unfortunately they don't include it in the sample.

              Archeophones are usually very lovingly produced - some of their early productions were however marred by digital artifacts. These have gradually been replaced with upgraded audio quality, usually adding tracks, and improved booklets. The "year" series are particularly attractive, having information both on the music and the social background.

              I would be interested to hear opinions from people who have heard both sets - even if $30 isn't quite peanuts, it would be worth the expenditure to hear really improved versions of these classics. Oh, and even then the Retrieval wouldn't quite be redundant since it has the Oliver/Morton duos and the Oliver accompaniments to Butterbeans and Susie.

              Michael Rader
              >
              >
              > I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
              >
              > The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be bettered ?
              >
              > What source used for remastering ?
              >
              > What is non-invasive ?
              > .
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • Michael Rader
              Discussions on the Red Hot Jazz list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we re approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on the subject:


                " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
                reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
                claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T. Davies.
                In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for this
                reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
                is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes for the project.

                <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
                disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them last
                time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
                the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
                didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set is
                the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
                have created with access to improved source material, and it would not exist
                without his guidance and encouragement.>>"

                As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses fresh remasters of all the recordings.

                Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.

                Michael Rader
                Karlsruhe,
                Germany



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              • davidsager1958
                I think I can clear up the confusion: This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                  I think I can clear up the confusion:

                  This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
                  Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
                  Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
                  Davies did back in the 50s.

                  Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                  comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                  better -- listen to the examples provided.

                  Best

                  David Sager


                  -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Crozier <jellyrollstomp@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I share this opinion. I doubt if the JRT issue can be improved.
                  >
                  > Hugh
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                  > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, 5 November, 2006 9:36:39 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE
                  >
                  > I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
                  >
                  > The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be
                  bettered ?
                  >
                  > What source used for remastering ?
                  >
                  > What is non-invasive ?
                  > .
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • john schott
                  Thanks for posting this - I imagine it s what many of us ASSUMED, on some level, but I appreciate it. ... From: Michael Rader To:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                    Thanks for posting this - I imagine it's what many of us ASSUMED, on some
                    level, but I appreciate it.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Michael Rader" <Rader.Michael@...>
                    To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:39 PM
                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


                    > Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder
                    > now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the
                    > debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail
                    > from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard
                    > attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new
                    > production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on
                    > the subject:
                    >
                    >
                    > " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
                    > reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
                    > claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T.
                    > Davies.
                    > In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for
                    > this
                    > reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
                    > is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes
                    > for the project.
                    >
                    > <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
                    > disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them
                    > last
                    > time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
                    > the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
                    > didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set
                    > is
                    > the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
                    > have created with access to improved source material, and it would not
                    > exist
                    > without his guidance and encouragement.>>"
                    >
                    > As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses
                    > fresh remasters of all the recordings.
                    >
                    > Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week
                    > recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.
                    >
                    > Michael Rader
                    > Karlsruhe,
                    > Germany
                  • loerchen2@aol.com
                    Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped it would be. I m amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of all,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                      Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped
                      it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of
                      all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never heard before,
                      and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!

                      Sue



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • spacelights
                      In my opinion, the word remastered fosters confusion as well... If an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                        In my opinion, the word "remastered" fosters confusion as well... If
                        an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
                        source--collectively--was mastered once before. If these are indeed
                        new transfers, then the disc is newly mastered, not remastered.

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "davidsager1958"
                        <davidsager1958@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I think I can clear up the confusion:
                        >
                        > This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
                        > Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
                        > Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
                        > Davies did back in the 50s.
                      • Michael Rader
                        David, Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I ve said before, most computers don t provide really good
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                          David,

                          Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.

                          If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of claims made for reissues.

                          Michael Rader

                          Karlsruhe, Germany

                          >
                          > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                          > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                          > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                          >
                          > Best
                          >
                          > David Sager

                          _______________________________________________________________________
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                        • David Brown
                          For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus ) extant. Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                            For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus )
                            extant.

                            Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even 'mastering'
                            ?


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • davidsager1958
                            Hi Michael The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I don t think that any one particular is better than another. Do, however, sample
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                              Hi Michael

                              The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I
                              don't think that any one particular is better than another.

                              Do, however, sample "Krooked Blues" -- Joe Oliver's blues style is so
                              very evident on this one as he is rather exposed.

                              Perhaps if you play a bit of the Retrieval on your computer speakers
                              and then try a few samples, then you can get an idea...or perhaps
                              rote your computer through your stereo system...

                              David


                              RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > David,
                              >
                              > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                              sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                              provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                              the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                              directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                              than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                              >
                              > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                              claims made for reissues.
                              >
                              > Michael Rader
                              >
                              > Karlsruhe, Germany
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                              > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                              > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                              > >
                              > > Best
                              > >
                              > > David Sager
                              >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              _
                              > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                              kostenlos.
                              > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                              >
                            • davidsager1958
                              OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer... Krooked Blues as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T. had used on the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                                OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                                "Krooked Blues" as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T.
                                had used on the Retireval/King Jazz set. Therefore "Alligator Hop"
                                was from a dub as well.

                                I'll try and find out which others came from dubbed sources.



                                In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > David,
                                >
                                > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                                sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                                provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                                the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                                directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                                than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                                >
                                > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                                claims made for reissues.
                                >
                                > Michael Rader
                                >
                                > Karlsruhe, Germany
                                >
                                > >
                                > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                                > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                                > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                                > >
                                > > Best
                                > >
                                > > David Sager
                                >
                                >
                                ______________________________________________________________________
                                _
                                > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                                kostenlos.
                                > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                                >
                              • Patrice Champarou
                                ... From: davidsager1958 To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "davidsager1958" <davidsager1958@...>
                                  To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM
                                  Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


                                  > OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                                  ... but the previous one hasn't arrived yet! ;-(

                                  I'm sorry, David, the Yahoogroup server has strange delays, I cannot even
                                  remove the moderation feature because it hasn't shown your name yet!

                                  Patrice (creeping in the RHJ basement)
                                • David Brown
                                  Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used. However, the link in the text
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                                    Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question
                                    answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used.

                                    However, the link in the text referring to Gennett 5275 plays the Okeh '
                                    Working Man ' --- confusing.

                                    The track list further down does indeed play the Gennett.

                                    The transcriptions cited as 'dubs' on the Retrieval -- ' Krooked' and
                                    'Alligator' -- even if so, are among the best on that issue and I cannot
                                    hear any improvement on the limited clip available from Archeophone.

                                    But PC soundstream never is a fair test but generally the Archeophone sound
                                    seems good but then so is the Retrieval.




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • stewmclean
                                    Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it s worth while adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny Dodds would make it money well
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
                                      Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it's worth while
                                      adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny
                                      Dodds would make it money well spent.
                                      Stewart
                                      --------------------------------------------------------
                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is
                                      everything I hoped
                                      > it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the
                                      music. Best of
                                      > all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never
                                      heard before,
                                      > and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!
                                      >
                                      > Sue
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • David Brown
                                      Sue What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ? I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ? I m interested in what pitch
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
                                        Sue

                                        What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                                        I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                                        I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                                        Retrieval.

                                        Dave




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Hugh Crozier
                                        Sorry - I ve missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them. Hugh ... From: David Brown
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
                                          Sorry - I've missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them.

                                          Hugh


                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, 9 November, 2006 7:51:31 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

                                          Sue

                                          What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                                          I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                                          I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                                          Retrieval.

                                          Dave

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • David Brown
                                          David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This never was so and I ve just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior. More body,
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
                                            David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                            never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior.
                                            More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the acceptable
                                            cost of more surface.

                                            If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly sound as
                                            if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                            /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- ( and I
                                            suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                            digitalising process is.


                                            Dave




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • spacelights
                                            ... superior. ... acceptable ... sound as ... and I ... The implication perhaps wasn t intentional, but the use of the singular word set could cause someone
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
                                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                              > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                              superior.
                                              > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                              acceptable
                                              > cost of more surface.
                                              >
                                              > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                              sound as
                                              > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                              > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- (
                                              and I
                                              > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                              > digitalising process is.

                                              The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                              singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were the
                                              same...

                                              I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                              Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                              came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                              noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                              cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                              taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                              Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something achieved
                                              through mastering.

                                              King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                              "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                              Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."

                                              John
                                            • davidsager1958
                                              Hello Friends, John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
                                                Hello Friends,

                                                John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both
                                                King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                                Retrieval set sounds better than the King Jazz.

                                                I'll never forget the one time I visited John and he played me the
                                                tape of his restoration of Oliver's "Mandy Lee Blues" -- it was
                                                thrilling! He was a brilliant man.

                                                David

                                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are
                                                synonymous. This
                                                > > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                                > superior.
                                                > > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                                > acceptable
                                                > > cost of more surface.
                                                > >
                                                > > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                                > sound as
                                                > > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                                > > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz --
                                                (
                                                > and I
                                                > > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the
                                                actual
                                                > > digitalising process is.
                                                >
                                                > The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                                > singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were
                                                the
                                                > same...
                                                >
                                                > I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                                > Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                                > came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                                > noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                                > cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                                > taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                                > Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something
                                                achieved
                                                > through mastering.
                                                >
                                                > King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                                > "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                                > Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."
                                                >
                                                > John
                                                >
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