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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: West Coast Jazz

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  • Howard Rye
    ... Hear, hear. I can t think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
      on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

      > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
      >
      >
      Hear, hear.

      I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
      enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
      Watters thought he was doing.

      By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
      in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
      Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
      albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
      in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
      had heard them.

      The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
      analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
      startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
      for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
      fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
      most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
    • Robert Greenwood
      David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along with in the Lu Watters YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the Yerba Buena Yobs).
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
        David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along
        with in the Lu Watters' YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the
        Yerba Buena Yobs). Thanks, David. It's good to see mention on here of
        Doc Evans – a fine player. And the Bell Band were excellent. Lazy Ade
        Monsbourgh died very recently; a fact which went unreported (as far as
        I know) anywhere in the UK press who eagerly report in their obituary
        pages the demise of any jazz musician. The boxed set of LW I saw in
        Fopp consists, I think, of the various Yerba Buena JB GTJ albums/CDs.
        Fopp is a vaguely trendy-looking outlet selling mostly bargain priced
        CDs, DVDs, and paperback books for those who seek constantly to be
        entertained somewhere down the shallow end; although they do sell a
        fair number of jazz, blues, and classical music CDs.
        Robert Greenwood.
      • Michael Rader
        I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it s a pity he doesn t post here as well) recently pointed out an article by
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
          I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it's a pity he doesn't post here as well) recently pointed out an article by Eddie Condon, of all people, on San Francisco trad , mainly Turk Murphy. It's on Jim Cullum's Riverwalk website: www.riverwalkjazz.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=18wmbbgcn4.app14a&page=NewsArticle&id=5434&am
          Incidentally, Condon put together a tune called "Duff Campbell's Revenge", named after one of the SF scenes's characters. It was recorded both by Condon and Murphy.

          Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

          At this distance, it's difficult to do any of these early revivalist bands justice, since we tend to hear their flaws more than any of the contemporary listeners. But hidden in the recordings are redeeming features, such as Bob Helm's solos - the late Frank Powers really opened my ears to Helm, who sounds off-tune to many critics, like Pee Wee Russell - an acquired taste.

          Cheers,
          Michael Rader
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        • Howard Rye
          ... What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton s I Play As I Please. Lyttelton agrees that
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
            on 6/10/06 17:23, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

            > Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest
            > recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits
            > to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of
            > awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy
            > of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

            What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for
            dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton's I Play As I Please. Lyttelton
            agrees that the Bell band was in the Yerba Buena mould though he
            characterizes the results rather differently from the way anyone has done
            here. Which brings us round in a circle.

            If I express the view that the commercial phenomenon that became British
            Trad (and the tired mainstream in which its practitioners took refuge when
            the bubble burst) owes much more to Joe Daniels and Freddie Randall than to
            George Webb, I will need a triple thickness tin hat, so forget I said it.

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Bob Eagle
            I ll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain s Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
              I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.

              It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation. Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond. Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered through players from Down Under.

              Bob

              Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
              on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

              > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
              >
              >
              Hear, hear.

              I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
              enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
              Watters thought he was doing.

              By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
              in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
              Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
              albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
              in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
              had heard them.

              The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
              analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
              startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
              for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
              fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
              most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098





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            • David Richoux
              Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day History of Rock in SF show - the very
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
                Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major
                FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day "History of Rock
                in SF" show - the very first song they played was YBJB's "Annie
                Street Rock" - to my ears it fit right in with the late 1940's R&B
                and other "pre-rock." Again, YBJB was geared to teen age and young
                adult dancers as much as the slightly older "listeners" of the
                previous generation.

                Dave Richoux


                On Oct 6, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Bob Eagle wrote:

                > I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came
                > up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard
                > the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when
                > they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.
                >
                > It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach
                > and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western
                > Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation.
                > Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of
                > hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond.
                > Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were
                > geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the
                > interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered
                > through players from Down Under.
                >
                > Bob
                >
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