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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: West Coast Jazz

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  • john schott
    Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks. ... From: silverleafjb To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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      Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "silverleafjb" <silverleafjb@...>
      To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:13 PM
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: West Coast Jazz
      [...]
      > I'm always surprised to read or hear references that the Watters and
      > Murphy bands "recreated" or "imitated" Oliver. Watters very
      > emphatically stated in print (and to me personally) that was not the
      > point of the band. There is an interview where he clearly states "How
      > can you copy the King Oliver band?" Watters concept was to use two
      > trumpets (or cornets) partly because he liked the sound, and he wanted
      >
      [...]
      >
      > Regarding the Watters band being "at the vanguard," this is not
      > strictly the case. They were part of an ongoing interest in early
      > jazz. Just some of the media attention at that time were articles on
      > record collecting in Esquire magazine; publication of the book

      [...]

      > Cheers,
      > Chris Tyle
    • Howard Rye
      ... Hear, hear. I can t think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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        on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

        > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
        >
        >
        Hear, hear.

        I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
        enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
        Watters thought he was doing.

        By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
        in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
        Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
        albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
        in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
        had heard them.

        The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
        analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
        startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
        for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
        fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
        most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • Robert Greenwood
        David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along with in the Lu Watters YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the Yerba Buena Yobs).
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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          David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along
          with in the Lu Watters' YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the
          Yerba Buena Yobs). Thanks, David. It's good to see mention on here of
          Doc Evans – a fine player. And the Bell Band were excellent. Lazy Ade
          Monsbourgh died very recently; a fact which went unreported (as far as
          I know) anywhere in the UK press who eagerly report in their obituary
          pages the demise of any jazz musician. The boxed set of LW I saw in
          Fopp consists, I think, of the various Yerba Buena JB GTJ albums/CDs.
          Fopp is a vaguely trendy-looking outlet selling mostly bargain priced
          CDs, DVDs, and paperback books for those who seek constantly to be
          entertained somewhere down the shallow end; although they do sell a
          fair number of jazz, blues, and classical music CDs.
          Robert Greenwood.
        • Michael Rader
          I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it s a pity he doesn t post here as well) recently pointed out an article by
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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            I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it's a pity he doesn't post here as well) recently pointed out an article by Eddie Condon, of all people, on San Francisco trad , mainly Turk Murphy. It's on Jim Cullum's Riverwalk website: www.riverwalkjazz.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=18wmbbgcn4.app14a&page=NewsArticle&id=5434&am
            Incidentally, Condon put together a tune called "Duff Campbell's Revenge", named after one of the SF scenes's characters. It was recorded both by Condon and Murphy.

            Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

            At this distance, it's difficult to do any of these early revivalist bands justice, since we tend to hear their flaws more than any of the contemporary listeners. But hidden in the recordings are redeeming features, such as Bob Helm's solos - the late Frank Powers really opened my ears to Helm, who sounds off-tune to many critics, like Pee Wee Russell - an acquired taste.

            Cheers,
            Michael Rader
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          • Howard Rye
            ... What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton s I Play As I Please. Lyttelton agrees that
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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              on 6/10/06 17:23, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

              > Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest
              > recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits
              > to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of
              > awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy
              > of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

              What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for
              dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton's I Play As I Please. Lyttelton
              agrees that the Bell band was in the Yerba Buena mould though he
              characterizes the results rather differently from the way anyone has done
              here. Which brings us round in a circle.

              If I express the view that the commercial phenomenon that became British
              Trad (and the tired mainstream in which its practitioners took refuge when
              the bubble burst) owes much more to Joe Daniels and Freddie Randall than to
              George Webb, I will need a triple thickness tin hat, so forget I said it.

              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • Bob Eagle
              I ll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain s Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.

                It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation. Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond. Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered through players from Down Under.

                Bob

                Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

                > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
                >
                >
                Hear, hear.

                I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
                enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
                Watters thought he was doing.

                By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
                in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
                Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
                albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
                in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
                had heard them.

                The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
                analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
                startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
                for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
                fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
                most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098





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              • David Richoux
                Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day History of Rock in SF show - the very
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                  Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major
                  FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day "History of Rock
                  in SF" show - the very first song they played was YBJB's "Annie
                  Street Rock" - to my ears it fit right in with the late 1940's R&B
                  and other "pre-rock." Again, YBJB was geared to teen age and young
                  adult dancers as much as the slightly older "listeners" of the
                  previous generation.

                  Dave Richoux


                  On Oct 6, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Bob Eagle wrote:

                  > I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came
                  > up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard
                  > the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when
                  > they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.
                  >
                  > It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach
                  > and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western
                  > Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation.
                  > Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of
                  > hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond.
                  > Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were
                  > geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the
                  > interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered
                  > through players from Down Under.
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
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