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Re: West Coast Jazz

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  • bigboy7734
    Go to http://www/sftradjazz.org/ It has all info you need and records. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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      Go to http://www/sftradjazz.org/ <http://www/sftradjazz.org/>

      It has all info you need and records.


      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
      >
      > Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
      > Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
      >
      > Dave Richoux
      > On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
      >
      > > Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and Lou
      > > Watters?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gary
      ... Lou ... Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco. Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10 Lp records in my
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
        >
        > Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
        > Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
        >
        > Dave Richoux
        > On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
        >
        > > Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and
        Lou
        > > Watters?

        Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco.
        Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10" Lp records
        in my collection recorded in the early 1950s

        Gary
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Scott Alexander
        Please see the SF Traditional Jazz Foundation: http://www.sftradjazz.org/articles.html
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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          Please see the SF Traditional Jazz Foundation:
          http://www.sftradjazz.org/articles.html
        • David Richoux
          There is a wealth of information on Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and the YBJB at this site: http://www.sftradjazz.org/articles.html some is free, more info is
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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            There is a wealth of information on Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and the
            YBJB at this site: http://www.sftradjazz.org/articles.html

            some is free, more info is available if you join the organization.

            Dave Richoux

            On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Gary wrote:

            > Turk Murphy also recorded a couple of 10" Lps, as I remember. I
            > think I have them in my collection.
            >
            >
          • Jeffrey Jastram
            Yes, he did record some 10-inchers, which I also have around here somewhere. In general, the personnel were: Lu Watters and/or Bob Scobey (cornets); Horne
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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              Yes, he did record some 10-inchers, which I also have around here somewhere.

              In general, the personnel were: Lu Watters and/or Bob Scobey (cornets); Horne (clarinet); Murphy ('bone); Walter Rose (piano); Clancy Hayes and/or Ed(?) Bennett (banjo); Girsback or Lammi (bass); and Billy Dart (drums).

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gary
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: 10/3/2006 12:40:40 PM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] West Coast Jazz


              Turk Murphy also recorded a couple of 10" Lps, as I remember. I think I have them in my collection.

              Gary
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jeffrey Jastram
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:36 AM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] West Coast Jazz

              Yes, I have 6 78's recorded in 1941 & 1942 on the Jazz Man label. My
              parents knew the members very well and used to sneak me in backstage at San
              Francisco clubs like 'On The Levee' (owned by Turk Murphy, as I remember)
              and 'Storyville'.

              BTW ... they recorded and performed under the moniker "Lu Watters' Yerba
              Buena Jazz Band".

              Jeff

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: john schott
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: 10/3/2006 11:15:18 AM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] West Coast Jazz

              Never heard of 'em.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "millsbernard" <millsbernard@...>
              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:09 AM
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] West Coast Jazz

              > Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and Lou
              > Watters?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Richoux
              Are you ALL suffering from irony deficiency? that was maybe a somewhat lame attempt at humor - I have been playing in jazz bands in the Bay Area for 30+ years
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 3, 2006
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                Are you ALL suffering from irony deficiency?

                that was maybe a somewhat lame attempt at humor - I have been playing
                in jazz bands in the Bay Area for 30+ years and hosted a jazz radio
                show for 23 years. I have played Earthquake McGoon's and worked with
                many of the members of Turk's band (and even a few survivors of YBJB!)

                anyway,

                Dave Richoux
                On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Gary wrote:

                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
                >> Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
                >>
                >> Dave Richoux
                >> On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
                >>
                >>> Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and
                > Lou
                >>> Watters?
                >
                > Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco.
                > Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10" Lp records
                > in my collection recorded in the early 1950s
                >
                > Gary
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
              • David N. Lewis
                I must confess, like Dave, I am completely mystified by this thread. Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena are absolutely legendary - among the VERY best of the
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 4, 2006
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                  I must confess, like Dave, I am completely mystified by this thread.
                  Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena are absolutely legendary - among the
                  VERY best of the revival groups, if not THE best.

                  I probably play their Mercury 78 of their recording of "Strut That
                  Thing" as often as any traditional jazz record I own. It kicks. If
                  you want to experience the spirit of the city of San Francisco before
                  its landscape became dominated by corporate monoliths, then the Yerba
                  Buena is a must.

                  I also have the four volumes of reissues on Good Time Jazz of Lu
                  Watters on single disc - not the box. I really like Volume 4, "On the
                  Air" which is taken from transcription service recordings averaging 2-
                  3 minutes in length. You can put that thing on auto repeat and play
                  it for days...

                  They may not belong to the time period proscribed by redhotjazz.com,
                  but boy could the Yerba Buena rock the house.

                  Uncle Dave Lewis

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Are you ALL suffering from irony deficiency?
                  >
                  > that was maybe a somewhat lame attempt at humor - I have been
                  playing
                  > in jazz bands in the Bay Area for 30+ years and hosted a jazz
                  radio
                  > show for 23 years. I have played Earthquake McGoon's and worked
                  with
                  > many of the members of Turk's band (and even a few survivors of
                  YBJB!)
                  >
                  > anyway,
                  >
                  > Dave Richoux
                  > On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Gary wrote:
                  >
                  > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
                  > >> Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
                  > >>
                  > >> Dave Richoux
                  > >> On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>> Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and
                  > > Lou
                  > >>> Watters?
                  > >
                  > > Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco.
                  > > Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10" Lp records
                  > > in my collection recorded in the early 1950s
                  > >
                  > > Gary
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  >
                • Mordechai Litzman
                  After Turk Murphy s death a foundation was set up to preserve his legacy. I have a couple of CDs from the San Fransisco Traditional Jazz Foundation with early
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 4, 2006
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                    After Turk Murphy's death a foundation was set up to preserve his legacy. I have a couple of CDs from the San Fransisco Traditional Jazz Foundation with early Turk material from 1937-1947 which are very enjoyable.
                    At the end of vol 2 ((SFTJF 106) is a bonus: four piano recordings with Jelly Roll Morton. Two are from 1938, a third is a hitherto unknown piano roll of the Pearls from 1924, but the fourth recording is what puzzles me. This is a piano roll that was discovered in 1999 which came without a label. The song is "Soap Suds" (Fickle Fay Creep). Several experts identify this recording as being played by Jelly himself. After listening to it I don't believe it is Jelly at all, especially since the left hand playing is poor and unlike Jelly. Would be interested to know if somebody concurs or has information or knowledge of this piano roll.

                    "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote: I must confess, like Dave, I am completely mystified by this thread.
                    Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena are absolutely legendary - among the
                    VERY best of the revival groups, if not THE best.

                    I probably play their Mercury 78 of their recording of "Strut That
                    Thing" as often as any traditional jazz record I own. It kicks. If
                    you want to experience the spirit of the city of San Francisco before
                    its landscape became dominated by corporate monoliths, then the Yerba
                    Buena is a must.

                    I also have the four volumes of reissues on Good Time Jazz of Lu
                    Watters on single disc - not the box. I really like Volume 4, "On the
                    Air" which is taken from transcription service recordings averaging 2-
                    3 minutes in length. You can put that thing on auto repeat and play
                    it for days...

                    They may not belong to the time period proscribed by redhotjazz.com,
                    but boy could the Yerba Buena rock the house.

                    Uncle Dave Lewis

                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Are you ALL suffering from irony deficiency?
                    >
                    > that was maybe a somewhat lame attempt at humor - I have been
                    playing
                    > in jazz bands in the Bay Area for 30+ years and hosted a jazz
                    radio
                    > show for 23 years. I have played Earthquake McGoon's and worked
                    with
                    > many of the members of Turk's band (and even a few survivors of
                    YBJB!)
                    >
                    > anyway,
                    >
                    > Dave Richoux
                    > On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Gary wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
                    > >> Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
                    > >>
                    > >> Dave Richoux
                    > >> On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and
                    > > Lou
                    > >>> Watters?
                    > >
                    > > Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco.
                    > > Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10" Lp records
                    > > in my collection recorded in the early 1950s
                    > >
                    > > Gary
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    >






                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David W. Littlefield
                    ... I have a duplicate copy of the box set, in box, with book. $50.00 postpaid. Please reply off-list if you re interested. Thanks. --Sheik
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 4, 2006
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                      At 01:11 PM 10/04/06 +0000, Uncle Dave Lewis wrote:
                      >I also have the four volumes of reissues on Good Time Jazz of Lu
                      >Watters on single disc - not the box. I really like Volume 4, "On the
                      >Air" which is taken from transcription service recordings averaging 2-
                      >3 minutes in length. You can put that thing on auto repeat and play
                      >it for days...

                      I have a duplicate copy of the box set, in box, with book.
                      $50.00 postpaid.

                      Please reply off-list if you're interested.

                      Thanks.
                      --Sheik
                    • Martin
                      My two-cents about Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena... There is no doubt this band was at the vanguard of the revivalist movement. By recreating (or imitating)
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 4, 2006
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                        My two-cents about Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena...

                        There is no doubt this band was at the vanguard of the revivalist
                        movement. By recreating (or imitating) Oliver's CJB, this group made way
                        for the numerous bands and festivals that still dot the landscapes of
                        the U.S., the U.K. and Europe.

                        This was a separate though parallel movement to the reserection and
                        diafication of Kid Rena, Bunk Johnson, George Lewis, Kid Ory, Sidney
                        Bechet, et al.

                        I collected YBJB recordings from the early 1950's when GTJ issued a
                        three-lp YBJB Story, and a 2-record Turk Murphy Story. They also issued
                        an extended 45 rpm recording (air check) of the YBJB from 1942 after Lu
                        and Scobey were in the armed forces and a young, soon-to-die trumpet
                        player held down that chair. His name was Benny Strickler, and he was
                        really fine. His melodic sense and behind-the-beat delivery were unusual
                        and much different from Lu or Bob Scobey. The tunes were Fidgety Feet,
                        Dippermouth, Jazzin Babies and Kansas City Stomps. I don't know if GTJ
                        included these sides in the YBJB boxed set, or if they have ever been
                        reissued, but they deserve to be.
                      • bernard mills
                        RE Turk Murphy/Lu Watters..Many thanks for all the interest and Gen. I am a Brit coming to Trad Jazz in the early 50 s Cut my teeth on Humph Lyttleton and
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                          RE Turk Murphy/Lu Watters..Many thanks for all the interest and Gen. I am a Brit coming to Trad Jazz in the early 50's Cut my teeth on Humph Lyttleton and progressed onwards. I remember Turk Murphy and his Jazz with great affection..Once again Cheers..Thanks a lot !!

                          "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote: I must confess, like Dave, I am completely mystified by this thread.
                          Lu Watters and the Yerba Buena are absolutely legendary - among the
                          VERY best of the revival groups, if not THE best.

                          I probably play their Mercury 78 of their recording of "Strut That
                          Thing" as often as any traditional jazz record I own. It kicks. If
                          you want to experience the spirit of the city of San Francisco before
                          its landscape became dominated by corporate monoliths, then the Yerba
                          Buena is a must.

                          I also have the four volumes of reissues on Good Time Jazz of Lu
                          Watters on single disc - not the box. I really like Volume 4, "On the
                          Air" which is taken from transcription service recordings averaging 2-
                          3 minutes in length. You can put that thing on auto repeat and play
                          it for days...

                          They may not belong to the time period proscribed by redhotjazz.com,
                          but boy could the Yerba Buena rock the house.

                          Uncle Dave Lewis

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Are you ALL suffering from irony deficiency?
                          >
                          > that was maybe a somewhat lame attempt at humor - I have been
                          playing
                          > in jazz bands in the Bay Area for 30+ years and hosted a jazz
                          radio
                          > show for 23 years. I have played Earthquake McGoon's and worked
                          with
                          > many of the members of Turk's band (and even a few survivors of
                          YBJB!)
                          >
                          > anyway,
                          >
                          > Dave Richoux
                          > On Oct 3, 2006, at 12:41 PM, Gary wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, David Richoux <tubaman@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> Weren't they the ones who tried to recreate the music of Lewis
                          > >> Harmstrong and the the Kansas City Hot 8?
                          > >>
                          > >> Dave Richoux
                          > >> On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:09 AM, millsbernard wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>> Anybody know anything of Turk Murphy Yerba Bueno Jazz Band..and
                          > > Lou
                          > >>> Watters?
                          > >
                          > > Turk Murphy and his Yerba Buena Jazz Band played in San Francisco.
                          > > Recording under the name of Lu Watters. I have 2 10" Lp records
                          > > in my collection recorded in the early 1950s
                          > >
                          > > Gary
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          >






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                        • Robert Greenwood
                          Not that I really want to promote the music of this rather leaden ensemble, but subscribers in the UK who live anywhere near a branch of Fopp may like to know
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                            Not that I really want to promote the music of this rather leaden
                            ensemble, but subscribers in the UK who live anywhere near a branch of
                            Fopp may like to know that I have glimpsed in the Tottenham Court Road
                            branch of that outlet copies of the GTJ boxed set of the Lu Watters
                            YBJB for a mere fifteen quid. I personally wasn't tempted. They also
                            have the GTJ issue of the recordings made by Watters with Bunk Johnson
                            for three pounds. Now that I would recommend, although the issue on
                            Document is preferable.
                            Robert Greenwood
                          • Howard Rye
                            ... Mike Meddings says: BTW, on the Red Hot discussion board, the piano roll of Soap Suds for Capitol is definitely played by JRM. This has been confirmed by
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                              on 4/10/06 16:57, Mordechai Litzman at folke613@... wrote:

                              > After Turk Murphy's death a foundation was set up to preserve his legacy. I
                              > have a couple of CDs from the San Fransisco Traditional Jazz Foundation with
                              > early Turk material from 1937-1947 which are very enjoyable.
                              > At the end of vol 2 ((SFTJF 106) is a bonus: four piano recordings with Jelly
                              > Roll Morton. Two are from 1938, a third is a hitherto unknown piano roll of
                              > the Pearls from 1924, but the fourth recording is what puzzles me. This is a
                              > piano roll that was discovered in 1999 which came without a label. The song is
                              > "Soap Suds" (Fickle Fay Creep). Several experts identify this recording as
                              > being played by Jelly himself. After listening to it I don't believe it is
                              > Jelly at all, especially since the left hand playing is poor and unlike Jelly.
                              > Would be interested to know if somebody concurs or has information or
                              > knowledge of this piano roll.

                              Mike Meddings says:

                              BTW, on the Red Hot discussion board, the piano roll of "Soap Suds" for
                              Capitol is definitely played by JRM.

                              This has been confirmed by Jim Dapogny, Larry Gushee, Mike Montgomery and
                              Frank Himpsl. See:

                              http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/page7.html#capitol

                              Haven't yet looked at it myself but I can't see how any of those named can
                              possibly come nearer to proof than to say that they believe it is JRM!



                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                            • Howard Rye
                              ... It d be interesting to know whether there is any literature on the point, but I suspect that many of the pioneers of revivalism in France and Britain would
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                on 4/10/06 23:29, Martin at martin@... wrote:

                                > There is no doubt this band was at the vanguard of the revivalist
                                > movement. By recreating (or imitating) Oliver's CJB, this group made way
                                > for the numerous bands and festivals that still dot the landscapes of
                                > the U.S., the U.K. and Europe.

                                It'd be interesting to know whether there is any literature on the point,
                                but I suspect that many of the pioneers of revivalism in France and Britain
                                would indignantly repudiate any suggestion that they needed or used Lu
                                Watters as an intermediary between the creators and their own recreations,
                                or that he was in their vanguard.

                                It is possible (just) that George Webb's band had somewhow contrived to hear
                                Yerba Buena records, though I doubt much space was available for records
                                from Californian private labels on the convoys, but Claude Luter and his
                                mates across the Manche certainly cannot have known Lu Watters existed.

                                In short, whatever Watters's pioneering role in the States, I think the
                                Europeans did their own pioneering here.

                                Following this line of thought at another tangent, many on this list will
                                have heard Delmark's recent issue of the 'lost' Frank Melrose session of
                                1939 or 1940. For my part I was disappointed at how "revivalist" it was.
                                This was really Pete Daley's band and it owes much more to the inspiraions
                                of Daley's later work that Kansas City Frank's earlier work. Daley, like
                                Watters, was a graduate of minor-league dance bands in the very latest 20s
                                (which brings him on topic here?) and there is a trend here.

                                Passing thought: Daley was clearly unable to make up his mind how to spell
                                his own name. If you prefer Dailey, fine. He used that too, also Daily.
                                Let's not discuss it.

                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                              • bernard mills
                                Hi Rob! Don t agree with the Leaden ensemble bit ...but is the boxed set 78s? Or what? And where in Tottenham Court Road is the outlet and...Whats the name?
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                  Hi Rob! Don't agree with the 'Leaden ensemble' bit ...but is the boxed set 78s? Or what? And where in Tottenham Court Road is the outlet and...Whats the name? I'm a Brit in the Midlands Cheers.. Sorryjust re-read its Fopps....Ta a lot...Regards

                                  Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote: Not that I really want to promote the music of this rather leaden
                                  ensemble, but subscribers in the UK who live anywhere near a branch of
                                  Fopp may like to know that I have glimpsed in the Tottenham Court Road
                                  branch of that outlet copies of the GTJ boxed set of the Lu Watters
                                  YBJB for a mere fifteen quid. I personally wasn't tempted. They also
                                  have the GTJ issue of the recordings made by Watters with Bunk Johnson
                                  for three pounds. Now that I would recommend, although the issue on
                                  Document is preferable.
                                  Robert Greenwood






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                                • David W. Littlefield
                                  ... The 2-beat nature of the West Coast style makes it seem leaden to folks who prefer/respond more to the 4=beat swing style of the Condonites. It s
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                    At 05:04 PM 10/05/06 +0100, you wrote:
                                    >Hi Rob! Don't agree with the 'Leaden ensemble' bit
                                    >
                                    >Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                                    > this rather leaden ensemble
                                    >Robert Greenwood
                                    >

                                    The 2-beat nature of the West Coast style makes it seem "leaden" to folks
                                    who prefer/respond more to the 4=beat swing style of the Condonites. It's
                                    brighter, happier feel makes the body move very differently than the
                                    driving 4-beat, and the banjo and raggy piano appeal to a broader, and, I
                                    suspect, less sophisticated, audience than 4-beat jazz, as does the body of
                                    20s pop and novelty tunes in the repertoire.

                                    My basic reservation is the all-too-frequent 2-trumpet/cornet line--I much
                                    prefer the cleaner sound of a single cornet, especially since they usually
                                    seem play together rather than following the Oliver-Armstrong model...




                                    --Sheik
                                    David W. Littlefield, Piano, Guitar, Banjo, Washboard
                                    http://americanmusiccaravan.com DixFB VOL.2 (C, Bb) available
                                    "BOOK NEWS: click on "Books" click on "Book News"
                                    eMail: dwlit@...
                                  • silverleafjb
                                    snip ... way for the numerous bands and festivals that still dot the landscapes of the U.S., the U.K. and Europe. I m always surprised to read or hear
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                      snip
                                      > There is no doubt this band was at the vanguard of the revivalist
                                      > movement. By recreating (or imitating) Oliver's CJB, this group made
                                      way > for the numerous bands and festivals that still dot the
                                      landscapes of > the U.S., the U.K. and Europe.

                                      I'm always surprised to read or hear references that the Watters and
                                      Murphy bands "recreated" or "imitated" Oliver. Watters very
                                      emphatically stated in print (and to me personally) that was not the
                                      point of the band. There is an interview where he clearly states "How
                                      can you copy the King Oliver band?" Watters concept was to use two
                                      trumpets (or cornets) partly because he liked the sound, and he wanted
                                      to play the tunes from the 1920s, some of which had been recorded by
                                      Oliver. But the band played and recorded a lot of numbers that weren't
                                      recorded by Oliver. BTW, the Oliver tunes the band played were all
                                      originally available as stock arrangements from Melrose Publishing. In
                                      addition, not very many people at that time had copies of the original
                                      recordings. None had been reissued and the originals were not easy to
                                      come by.

                                      As was mentioned in another post, Watters and Turk came out of the
                                      dance band scene of the 1920s and 30s, as did most of their
                                      colleagues, playing with bands that often had tuba rather than string
                                      bass, or a bassist that doubled. I believe Watters was attempting to
                                      grab a slightly different audience than most swing bands of the time
                                      simply by playing two beat with a tuba in the rhythm section. There
                                      were lots of people around in the 1940s who would have preferred
                                      dancing to Watters' music rather than, for example, Benny Goodman's
                                      band blasting away on a fast-tempo killer-diller. By having two
                                      trumpets, Watters could attempt to get some of the volume of a big
                                      band with a smaller combination, making it more financially viable. As
                                      it was, he had played in a conventional big band at Sweets Ballroom in
                                      Oakland a couple of years prior to his forming the Yerba Buena group
                                      (in 1937, and those recordings are available from the San Francisco
                                      Trad Jazz Foundation). And that band played quite a few 1920s numbers,
                                      in addition to playing popular tunes.

                                      Regarding Strickler, he was a favorite of Watters, and he was one of
                                      Turk's favorite trumpet players. On the boxed GTJ set, there are
                                      versions of "Muskrat Ramble" and "Trombone Rag" with Strickler that
                                      were previously unissued (that I helped supply for that set), and I
                                      believe one of the San Francisco Trad Jazz Foundation CDs has a
                                      previously unreleased "Ace in the Hole."

                                      Regarding the Watters band being "at the vanguard," this is not
                                      strictly the case. They were part of an ongoing interest in early
                                      jazz. Just some of the media attention at that time were articles on
                                      record collecting in Esquire magazine; publication of the book
                                      Jazzmen; recordings by Bob Crosby's band (especially the Bobcats)and
                                      by Eddie Condon's groups on Commodore; and a number of reissues of
                                      1920s recordings. I belive the only reason Watters gets a good deal of
                                      attention is simply due to the fact he was able to make a number of
                                      recordings, first for the Jazz Man label (based in LA) before WWII,
                                      then after WWII on his own labels (first West Coast, then Down Home).
                                      Other groups didn't have this opportunity until after WWII (with the
                                      exception of the Castle Jazz Band in Portland, with two 78 issues from
                                      recording sessions in 1944).

                                      BTW, regarding the Castle Jazz Band, that band was originally oriented
                                      more towards the Chicago style until the band's session from December
                                      1947, when leader Monte Ballou switched to banjo and cornetist/valve
                                      trombonist Bob Short switched to tuba.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Chris Tyle
                                    • john schott
                                      Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks. ... From: silverleafjb To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                        Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "silverleafjb" <silverleafjb@...>
                                        To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:13 PM
                                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: West Coast Jazz
                                        [...]
                                        > I'm always surprised to read or hear references that the Watters and
                                        > Murphy bands "recreated" or "imitated" Oliver. Watters very
                                        > emphatically stated in print (and to me personally) that was not the
                                        > point of the band. There is an interview where he clearly states "How
                                        > can you copy the King Oliver band?" Watters concept was to use two
                                        > trumpets (or cornets) partly because he liked the sound, and he wanted
                                        >
                                        [...]
                                        >
                                        > Regarding the Watters band being "at the vanguard," this is not
                                        > strictly the case. They were part of an ongoing interest in early
                                        > jazz. Just some of the media attention at that time were articles on
                                        > record collecting in Esquire magazine; publication of the book

                                        [...]

                                        > Cheers,
                                        > Chris Tyle
                                      • Howard Rye
                                        ... Hear, hear. I can t think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                          on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

                                          > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          Hear, hear.

                                          I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
                                          enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
                                          Watters thought he was doing.

                                          By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
                                          in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
                                          Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
                                          albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
                                          in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
                                          had heard them.

                                          The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
                                          analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
                                          startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
                                          for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
                                          fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
                                          most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

                                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                          howard@...
                                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                        • Robert Greenwood
                                          David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along with in the Lu Watters YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the Yerba Buena Yobs).
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                            David Littlefield has admirably articulated what I cannot get along
                                            with in the Lu Watters' YBJB (described once by Max Harrison as the
                                            Yerba Buena Yobs). Thanks, David. It's good to see mention on here of
                                            Doc Evans – a fine player. And the Bell Band were excellent. Lazy Ade
                                            Monsbourgh died very recently; a fact which went unreported (as far as
                                            I know) anywhere in the UK press who eagerly report in their obituary
                                            pages the demise of any jazz musician. The boxed set of LW I saw in
                                            Fopp consists, I think, of the various Yerba Buena JB GTJ albums/CDs.
                                            Fopp is a vaguely trendy-looking outlet selling mostly bargain priced
                                            CDs, DVDs, and paperback books for those who seek constantly to be
                                            entertained somewhere down the shallow end; although they do sell a
                                            fair number of jazz, blues, and classical music CDs.
                                            Robert Greenwood.
                                          • Michael Rader
                                            I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it s a pity he doesn t post here as well) recently pointed out an article by
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                              I sometimes read the archive of the dixieland jazz mailing list. Bill Haesler (it's a pity he doesn't post here as well) recently pointed out an article by Eddie Condon, of all people, on San Francisco trad , mainly Turk Murphy. It's on Jim Cullum's Riverwalk website: www.riverwalkjazz.org/site/News2?JServSessionIdr006=18wmbbgcn4.app14a&page=NewsArticle&id=5434&am
                                              Incidentally, Condon put together a tune called "Duff Campbell's Revenge", named after one of the SF scenes's characters. It was recorded both by Condon and Murphy.

                                              Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

                                              At this distance, it's difficult to do any of these early revivalist bands justice, since we tend to hear their flaws more than any of the contemporary listeners. But hidden in the recordings are redeeming features, such as Bob Helm's solos - the late Frank Powers really opened my ears to Helm, who sounds off-tune to many critics, like Pee Wee Russell - an acquired taste.

                                              Cheers,
                                              Michael Rader
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                                            • Howard Rye
                                              ... What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton s I Play As I Please. Lyttelton agrees that
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                                on 6/10/06 17:23, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                                                > Wouldn't the earliest influence on British trad be George Webb? The earliest
                                                > recordings, which I have on a George Buck issued LP predate the Bells' visits
                                                > to the UK and were probably not influenced by Watters, due to lack of
                                                > awareness of their existence. The tuba's also not exactly flexible - a legacy
                                                > of the British brass band tradition, at a guess.

                                                What I had in mind was that it was the Bells who introduced music for
                                                dancing. See p.150 of Humphrey Lyttelton's I Play As I Please. Lyttelton
                                                agrees that the Bell band was in the Yerba Buena mould though he
                                                characterizes the results rather differently from the way anyone has done
                                                here. Which brings us round in a circle.

                                                If I express the view that the commercial phenomenon that became British
                                                Trad (and the tired mainstream in which its practitioners took refuge when
                                                the bubble burst) owes much more to Joe Daniels and Freddie Randall than to
                                                George Webb, I will need a triple thickness tin hat, so forget I said it.

                                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                howard@...
                                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                              • Bob Eagle
                                                I ll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain s Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                                  I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.

                                                  It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation. Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond. Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered through players from Down Under.

                                                  Bob

                                                  Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                                                  on 6/10/06 8:41, john schott at john@... wrote:

                                                  > Chris, Excellent contribution, thanks.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  Hear, hear.

                                                  I can't think of any way of not making this sound a bit pompous but it is an
                                                  enormous relief to learn that what my ears tell me Watters was doing is what
                                                  Watters thought he was doing.

                                                  By contrast I think the early European revivalists were consciously engaged
                                                  in "re-creating" what they heard on their records, and of course the Oliver
                                                  Creole Band Gennetts were freely available in Britain (and pre-Nazi Europe),
                                                  albeit in diabolical dubs whose deficiencies sometimes seem to be reflected
                                                  in the music of the revivalist bands. Everyone remotely interested in jazz
                                                  had heard them.

                                                  The Graeme Bell band down under were engaged in an enterprise much more
                                                  analagous to what Watters was doing, and there is a lot of testimony to how
                                                  startled homegrown revivalists were when this freewheeling ensemble playing
                                                  for dancers fetched up in London. Inadvertently, the Bells are the true
                                                  fathers of British Trad are they not? Their records are also some of the
                                                  most rewarding and enduring of the revivalist output.

                                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                  howard@...
                                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098





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                                                • David Richoux
                                                  Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day History of Rock in SF show - the very
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
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                                                    Going the same way in a slightly different direction - when a major
                                                    FM Rock station in San Francisco presented a 3 day "History of Rock
                                                    in SF" show - the very first song they played was YBJB's "Annie
                                                    Street Rock" - to my ears it fit right in with the late 1940's R&B
                                                    and other "pre-rock." Again, YBJB was geared to teen age and young
                                                    adult dancers as much as the slightly older "listeners" of the
                                                    previous generation.

                                                    Dave Richoux


                                                    On Oct 6, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Bob Eagle wrote:

                                                    > I'll be at the risk of causing great offence to some here. I came
                                                    > up during the Oz version of Britain's Trad Jazz craze, and I heard
                                                    > the Bell band (particularly on record but occasionally live when
                                                    > they visited Melbourne), and a number of worthwhile Melbourne bands.
                                                    >
                                                    > It has struck me forcibly in later years how much the approach
                                                    > and "feel" of the Aussie bands resembled that of the best Western
                                                    > Swing bands, despite the obvious differences in instrumentation.
                                                    > Australian popular music has had the pervasive influence of
                                                    > hillbilly music, from Jimmie Rodgers through Hank Snow and beyond.
                                                    > Of course both sets (Bell etc and Light Crust Doughboys et al) were
                                                    > geared towards dancers, but I think it again demonstrates the
                                                    > interconnectedness of all good American music, even when filtered
                                                    > through players from Down Under.
                                                    >
                                                    > Bob
                                                    >
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