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Vicksburg Blowers Mystery Clarinet - Earliest example of cycle breathing?

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  • velostigmat
    For those that have not heard this group, two cuts appeared on Rare Hot Chicago Jazz Herwin 109 LP. The tracks are Monte Carlo Joys and Twin Blues. The
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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      For those that have not heard this group, two cuts appeared on "Rare
      Hot Chicago Jazz" Herwin 109 LP. The tracks are Monte Carlo Joys and
      Twin Blues. The reedman plays clarinet on Twin Blues and alto on Monte
      Carlo Joys. He holds one note on clarinet for about twenty seconds - I
      am sure he's cycle-breathing. Given that this is circa 1929 it's quite
      amazing. I believe the piano to be Kline Tyndall and the reedman to be
      Vance Dixon, though the personnel listed says it someone else. I know
      Mary Lou Williams drew attention in an interview to Dixon's amazing
      technique, so I think it's not likely to have been some unknown
      musician - whoever it is he's as good a technician as Stump Evans was
      at the time. I've heard other work by Dixon, but none this good.
      Anyone out there familiar with these tracks and care to speculate who
      it is, if not Dixon?
    • Howard Rye
      ... In his monograph on Vance Dixon, Chris Hillman treats it as certain that this is Dixon, and suggests Kline Tindall on piano and Lawrence Dixon on banjo.
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 5, 2006
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        on 5/9/06 2:40, velostigmat at bigbeark@... wrote:

        > For those that have not heard this group, two cuts appeared on "Rare
        > Hot Chicago Jazz" Herwin 109 LP. The tracks are Monte Carlo Joys and
        > Twin Blues. The reedman plays clarinet on Twin Blues and alto on Monte
        > Carlo Joys. He holds one note on clarinet for about twenty seconds - I
        > am sure he's cycle-breathing. Given that this is circa 1929 it's quite
        > amazing. I believe the piano to be Kline Tyndall and the reedman to be
        > Vance Dixon, though the personnel listed says it someone else. I know
        > Mary Lou Williams drew attention in an interview to Dixon's amazing
        > technique, so I think it's not likely to have been some unknown
        > musician - whoever it is he's as good a technician as Stump Evans was
        > at the time. I've heard other work by Dixon, but none this good.
        > Anyone out there familiar with these tracks and care to speculate who
        > it is, if not Dixon?

        In his monograph on Vance Dixon, Chris Hillman treats it as certain that
        this is Dixon, and suggests Kline Tindall on piano and Lawrence Dixon on
        banjo.

        Given that the Black Patti issue is credited to Dixon's Chicago Serenaders,
        aural evidence has at least some documentary support.

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • Mordechai Litzman
        The tracks by the Vicksburg Blowers are listed on the RHJA with two takes of each with a recording date of March 30, 1927. Unfortunately the tunes are not
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 5, 2006
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          The tracks by the Vicksburg Blowers are listed on the RHJA with two takes of each with a recording date of March 30, 1927. Unfortunately the tunes are not available on the RHJA.
          On Doctor Jazz with Jelly Roll Morton's Red Hot Peppers Omer Simeon holds the same note for about 10 seconds and then continues playing (seemingly without catching his breath), but I am not familiar with the breathing techniques of clarinet players or the technical proficiency required.
          Vance Dixon was an excellent clarinet player, and his version of Crazy Quilt from Jan 1927 is one of my favorites and well worth listening to.

          velostigmat <bigbeark@...> wrote: For those that have not heard this group, two cuts appeared on "Rare
          Hot Chicago Jazz" Herwin 109 LP. The tracks are Monte Carlo Joys and
          Twin Blues. The reedman plays clarinet on Twin Blues and alto on Monte
          Carlo Joys. He holds one note on clarinet for about twenty seconds - I
          am sure he's cycle-breathing. Given that this is circa 1929 it's quite
          amazing. I believe the piano to be Kline Tyndall and the reedman to be
          Vance Dixon, though the personnel listed says it someone else. I know
          Mary Lou Williams drew attention in an interview to Dixon's amazing
          technique, so I think it's not likely to have been some unknown
          musician - whoever it is he's as good a technician as Stump Evans was
          at the time. I've heard other work by Dixon, but none this good.
          Anyone out there familiar with these tracks and care to speculate who
          it is, if not Dixon?






          ---------------------------------
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        • velostigmat
          Howard: Thanks for the reply, where can I find the monograph? What became of Dixon and Tyndall? Thanks Barry ... on Rare ... and ... Monte ... seconds - I ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 5, 2006
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            Howard:

            Thanks for the reply, where can I find the monograph?
            What became of Dixon and Tyndall?

            Thanks

            Barry

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
            >
            > on 5/9/06 2:40, velostigmat at bigbeark@... wrote:
            >
            > > For those that have not heard this group, two cuts appeared
            on "Rare
            > > Hot Chicago Jazz" Herwin 109 LP. The tracks are Monte Carlo Joys
            and
            > > Twin Blues. The reedman plays clarinet on Twin Blues and alto on
            Monte
            > > Carlo Joys. He holds one note on clarinet for about twenty
            seconds - I
            > > am sure he's cycle-breathing. Given that this is circa 1929 it's
            quite
            > > amazing. I believe the piano to be Kline Tyndall and the reedman
            to be
            > > Vance Dixon, though the personnel listed says it someone else. I
            know
            > > Mary Lou Williams drew attention in an interview to Dixon's
            amazing
            > > technique, so I think it's not likely to have been some unknown
            > > musician - whoever it is he's as good a technician as Stump
            Evans was
            > > at the time. I've heard other work by Dixon, but none this good.
            > > Anyone out there familiar with these tracks and care to
            speculate who
            > > it is, if not Dixon?
            >
            > In his monograph on Vance Dixon, Chris Hillman treats it as
            certain that
            > this is Dixon, and suggests Kline Tindall on piano and Lawrence
            Dixon on
            > banjo.
            >
            > Given that the Black Patti issue is credited to Dixon's Chicago
            Serenaders,
            > aural evidence has at least some documentary support.
            >
            > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            > howard@...
            > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            >
          • Howard Rye
            ... Dave Nelson And Others: Essays in Historical and Discographical Jazz Research by Christopher Hillman and Roy Middleton with Richard Rains, published by
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 6, 2006
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              on 6/9/06 4:44, velostigmat at bigbeark@... wrote:

              > Howard:
              >
              > Thanks for the reply, where can I find the monograph?
              > What became of Dixon and Tyndall?


              Dave Nelson And Others: Essays in Historical and Discographical Jazz
              Research by Christopher Hillman and Roy Middleton with Richard Rains,
              published by Cygnet Productions (P.O. Box 4, Tavistock, England, PL19 9YP).
              v + 77 pages. Price: £10 including post & packing to UK & EU, £11 to
              elsewhere. Sterling cheques to Cygnet Productions, sterling or equivalent
              Euros cash acceptable, or by Paypal to <gooferdust@...>


              Vance Dixon was last heard of in 1936 at the Quogue Inn, "Long Island"
              working with June Clark. He vanishes without trace.

              I think Tyndall's later career is unresearched.

              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • Howard Rye
              Cline Tindull, which is the spelling which appears in the original Chicago Defender caption to the photograph reproduced in Hillman s book, was born 21 October
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 6, 2006
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                Cline Tindull, which is the spelling which appears in the original Chicago
                Defender caption to the photograph reproduced in Hillman's book, was born 21
                October 1899.

                In the 1910 census, Cline Tindull, aged 10, he is living on Market Street,
                Lewisport Town, Kentucky, with his mother Katie Tindull, a 29 year old
                bookkeeper, in the home of her parents Cooper and Rachel Lee. There are two
                sister and a brother of Katie's still in the household. Cline was born in
                Ohio and his absent father in Virginia. Everybody else and their parents is
                from Kentucky.

                He registered for the draft as Robert Cline Tindull of 216 Cleveland Avenue,
                Columbus, Ohio, describing himself as a self-employed musician. His mother,
                of the same address, had remarried. From the 1930 census, see below, he name
                was apparently Katherine Brice, but on the draft card it looks more like
                Price.

                In 1920, Klyne Tindull, aged 21 is lodging at 223 Fifth Street, Columbus
                City, Ohio, he is described as a traveling musician. He thought his father
                was Ohio-born like himself.

                In 1930, Klein Tindull, aged 29, is back with his mother, now Katherine
                Brice, a 43-year old widow, at 3420 Michigan Avenue, Chicago. He is a
                "musician theatre". His father's birth state is again given as Virginia.
                Katherine Brice, whose occupation is described as "employment in home"
                evidently took in lodgers. None of the four present are musical but John L.
                and Scotland Harris are respectively "attendant, club" and "bellboy, club".

                Though the spellings are quite clear in all of these records, only the 1910
                census is correctly indexed!

                He can be heard on his own Paramount 12377 (June 1926), an incredibly rare
                record (probably only one copy extant), reissued as far as I know only on
                Frog DGF13 "Alexander, Where's That Band?'

                Also on a lot of Vance Dixon's records (all on RST JPCD1519-2, Jimmy
                O'Bryant (Vol. 2) and Vance Dixon) and with Vance behind the singer Ardella
                Bragg. These are on Document DOCD5341 Tiny Parham and the Blues Singers.
                Chris Hillman thinks this is Tindull, probably because of the presence of
                Vance Dixon, but rejects Rust's suggestion of Tindull on Hattie McDaniels's
                1929 OKeh, preferring Parham. This disc is also on DOCD5341.

                I don't know what the evidence is for his appearance with Harlem House Rent
                Stompers (Brunswick 28 August 1929).


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              • Howard Rye
                ... It is composer credits to Tindell-McCord-Tinsley , the three musicians reckoned to be present. This is from a Brunswick 7000 listing, not from the record,
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 6, 2006
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                  on 6/9/06 12:34, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

                  > I don't know what the evidence is for his appearance with Harlem House Rent
                  > Stompers (Brunswick 28 August 1929).

                  It is composer credits to "Tindell-McCord-Tinsley", the three musicians
                  reckoned to be present. This is from a Brunswick 7000 listing, not from the
                  record, so presented with all due reservation about the spelling "Tindell"!

                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                • Howard Rye
                  on 6/9/06 12:34, Howard Rye at howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk wrote: rejects Rust s suggestion of Tindull on Hattie McDaniels s ... The 1929 disc in question is
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 6, 2006
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                    on 6/9/06 12:34, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

                    rejects Rust's suggestion of Tindull on Hattie McDaniels's
                    > 1929 OKeh, preferring Parham. This disc is also on DOCD5341.
                    >
                    The 1929 disc in question is actually a Paramount and is on RST JPCD1519-2.
                    It is the 1927 OKeh which is on Document. This is an undoubted Tiny Parham
                    accompaniment as he is named in the OKeh files.


                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  • spacelights
                    Monte Carlo Joys is wonderful; I have not yet compared it to other Dixon alto work... In the Red Hot Jazz Archive, composer credit for both titles is
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 6, 2006
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                      "Monte Carlo Joys" is wonderful; I have not yet compared it to other
                      Dixon alto work...

                      In the Red Hot Jazz Archive, composer credit for both titles is
                      "Williams." Who does this refer to... J. Mayo Williams?
                    • Jeffrey Jastram
                      Mary Lou???? ... From: spacelights To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: 9/6/2006 9:28:30 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Vicksburg Blowers Mystery Clarinet -
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 7, 2006
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                        Mary Lou????


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: spacelights
                        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: 9/6/2006 9:28:30 PM
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Vicksburg Blowers Mystery Clarinet - Earliest
                        example of cycle breathing?


                        "Monte Carlo Joys" is wonderful; I have not yet compared it to other
                        Dixon alto work...

                        In the Red Hot Jazz Archive, composer credit for both titles is
                        "Williams." Who does this refer to... J. Mayo Williams?
                      • Howard Rye
                        ... Yes. I have no record of the copyright for Monte Carlo Joys, but Tu Cu Blues, which is the name of Twin Blues on Black Swan, and also has composer credit
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 7, 2006
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                          on 7/9/06 5:17, spacelights at spacelights@... wrote:

                          > "Monte Carlo Joys" is wonderful; I have not yet compared it to other
                          > Dixon alto work...
                          >
                          > In the Red Hot Jazz Archive, composer credit for both titles is
                          > "Williams." Who does this refer to... J. Mayo Williams?

                          Yes.

                          I have no record of the copyright for Monte Carlo Joys, but Tu Cu Blues,
                          which is the name of Twin Blues on Black Swan, and also has composer credit
                          to Williams, was copyrighted by Williams's State Street Music on 1 December
                          1927.
                          The copyright registration however is in the name of Vance Dixon, so that
                          ties up pretty neatly!
                          Odd that he should have made the copyright registration in Dixon's name and
                          then claimed credit himself on the labels but that's the record biz for you!

                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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