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Re: A few ODJB questions

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  • Todd Robbins
    Lynn, Thanks for bringing up the ODJB. This is such a fascinating band and it is sad that they have been dismissed by so many. First off, they were a band
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 13, 2006
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      Lynn,
      Thanks for bringing up the ODJB. This is such a fascinating band and
      it is sad that they have been dismissed by so many.

      First off, they were a band that played for dancing. It was not
      about solos. That concept didn't come into favor until several years
      later. It was about ensemble playing that made people want to get up
      and dance.

      Only two of the members of the band, pianist Henry Ragas and
      trombonist Eddie Edwards, read music. This meant that they had to
      work out head arrangements of the tunes they played. And once they
      created their part in an arrangement, it was acceptable to play those
      same notes every time the tune was played.

      It has been reported that on a gig they did loosen up a bit, but for
      the most part it was the same as on the records. And when they hit
      big, the public wanted to hear live what they heard on their
      records. At one dance they played, a recording of the ODJB was
      played followed by the band playing the same tune. This was done to
      assure the dancers that this was the real band!

      When they went in to record for Columbia, the company did not want
      the ODJB original compositions. They wanted the band to play pop
      songs of the day. That's why they played Indiana and Darktown
      Strutters Ball. They had to learn the tunes for this recording date,
      so that is why their playing was not up to what was done on the
      Victor sides when they recorded tunes they had been played for a year.

      Also, the recording session at Columbia did not go well. The sound
      engineer had a very tough time recording the band, so I'm sure there
      was a lot of tension at that date. This did not help their playing.

      The complete drum set was NOT used on the Victor sides. What sounds
      like a bass drum is accents played on the tom tom. The bass drum did
      not record well, so Tony Sbarbaro did not play it. It is possible
      that he may have played some accent on the bass drum by hitting it
      with his drum stick, but he did not play time on that drum with his
      bass pedal.

      I don't think that the ODJB was completely representative of what was
      being played in New Orleans in the teens. The band came together in
      such a way that created a musical mix unique unto this group. The way
      those three horns fit together and the roles they played was
      something that only came together with that band.

      Earlier band member were dismissed because the mix was not quite what
      LaRocca wanted. Admittedly, there were other reasons that played
      into various members of the band being cast out, but musical
      incapatiblity was the major factor.

      I don't think the Bunk Johnson band of the 1940s sounded like the
      Bunk Johnson band of 1911. What came later was filter through all
      the changes in jazz and it affected the sound of that 1940s band.
      The Bunk band of the teens would probably had more of a ragtime 8/8
      feel to it. It would be a rhythm feel closer to the ODJB. The swing
      of the 1940s Bunk band was not heard on recordings of other bands
      from the teens, so it is doubtful that Bunk's band played that way.

      I like to look upon the ODJB as a phenomenon kindred to the Beatles.
      They weren't truly the first to play this music, but they had a sound
      all their own, were a major influence on others and change music
      history.

      Todd Robbins

      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn Bayley" <lynnrbayley@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi group,
      >
      > I have just been relistening to the ODJB, a group I have had a love-
      > hate relationship with for 40 years. (I initially loved and was
      > attracted to their energy but, after discovering Louis and Bix,
      > became bored by their lack of improvisation and variety.)
      >
      > Perhaps someone on the list has some answers to the questions that
      > keep coming up for me.
      >
      > Almost everything they did on those early Victors and Columbias
      > sounded so tightly-controlled and well-rehearsed, as if every
      cornet
      > note, every clarinet gliss, every tailgate response, were a matter
      > of drilled precision. But then you listen to the Columbia
      recording
      > of "Indiana," and it's very sloppy – the earlier take is even worse
      > than the following one. The band seems to have trouble feeding the
      > rhythm to each other; Sbarbaro's drums come in late; it ends
      oddly.
      > Could they have been merely reading a written arrangement? If so,
      a
      > strange departure for this group.
      >
      > On those early Victors, Sbarbaro is clearly using his entire drum
      > kit, and the recorded balance sounds fine. So why did the bass
      drum
      > virtually disappear from jazz records by the early 1920s?? People
      > have said it was because it overwhelmed the early recording horns,
      > but Victor obviously solved this problem in 1917.
      >
      > And now, for the million-dollar question.
      >
      > Which is truly representative of the way jazz was played in New
      > Orleans in the Teens? The stiff, ragtimey beat of the ODJB,
      Freddie
      > Keppard and King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band? Or the looser,
      > swingier, jazzier style of the NORK or Jelly Roll Morton?
      >
      > Bunk Johnson didn't make his first recordings until the early
      1940s,
      > and they exhibit a looser, more relaxed beat and greater polyphonic
      > improvisation than anything recorded in the early years. One is
      > tempted to say that Bunk and his musicians represented an
      evolution,
      > but Louis Armstrong affirmed that Bunk's style had never really
      > changed since he heard him around 1911; and certainly drummer Baby
      > Dodds' style was virtually unchanged since he first appeared on
      > discs in 1923. But there is little or nothing of this kind of
      > playing in the records of the ODJB – they just blare full-blast and
      > every chorus sounds like the one before, as if the polyphony were
      > written down and dutifully memorized. Until you come to the 1936
      > recordings. Then, suddenly, the rhythm is less raggy, LaRocca's
      > lead is more varied and Larry Shields takes real solos, something
      he
      > only hinted at in the early records.
      >
      > So what do you think? Was the early ODJB truly representative of
      > what was played in New Orleans at the time, or possibly a
      > simplification that was done for a big-city, Northern audience? I
      > do know from ear-witnesses who were in Chicago at the time that the
      > Creole Jazz Band played a lot looser in person, more like Oliver's
      > Dixie Syncopators, than they sounded on records. You would think
      > that, if the ODJB were capable of more varied and colorful playing
      > in 1918-1920 that they would have recorded some of it, but even
      > their 12-inch British Columbia recordings are the same old thing –
      > chorus after chorus a virtual carbon-copy of the one before.
      >
      > I'd appreciate any ideas, especially if based on any first-hand
      > accounts that you may have heard.
      >
      > Lynn
      >
    • Chris Tyle
      Todd Robbins wrote... ... As a drummer with many years experience, I beg to differ. Sbarbaro is clearly playing the bass drum on the early Victor session.
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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        Todd Robbins wrote...

        > The complete drum set was NOT used on the Victor sides. What sounds
        > like a bass drum is accents played on the tom tom. The bass drum did
        > not record well, so Tony Sbarbaro did not play it. It is possible
        > that he may have played some accent on the bass drum by hitting it
        > with his drum stick, but he did not play time on that drum with his
        > bass pedal.

        As a drummer with many years experience, I beg to differ. Sbarbaro is
        clearly playing the bass drum on the early Victor session. Right now
        I'm listen to "Livery Stable Blues" and I can CLEARLY hear him playing
        two beat (i.e., on one and three of the measure). He's also hitting
        the bass drum with his stick, not a tom-tom. Many drummers did this,
        including Baby Dodds, Zutty Singleton and Gene Krupa. Zutty was famous
        for playing the bass drum with the left stick and a pattern between
        his woodblock and cowbell. Very effective!

        I suggest if you can't hear the bass, listen very carefully after the
        "barnyard" breaks. Tony also is playing the snare drum with a
        "dum-ta-da-dum" rhythm, akin to what is still being played by jazz
        drummers as a ride cymbal rhythm.

        By the time of the "Mournin' Blues" session, the bass drum is very
        muffled, but still there. By the time of "Margie," the bass drum is
        absent, as it is on all the Aeolion and English Columbia recordings.

        Of course the great mystery is, if Victor let him play the bass drum
        on the earliest session, why was it omitted later on? It seems to me I
        read somewhere that the engineer on the first session was a very
        experienced Victor tech. Obviously HE knew how to do it. Shame he
        didn't engineer all the acoustical Victor sessions, and those by other
        companies.

        Cheers,
        Chris Tyle
      • Howard Rye
        ... I find this suggestion particularly interesting because the 1913 James Reese Europe Victors also feature drumming of a kind one is always told couldn t be
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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          on 15/8/06 15:52, Chris Tyle at silverleafjb@... wrote:

          > Of course the great mystery is, if Victor let him play the bass drum
          > on the earliest session, why was it omitted later on? It seems to me I
          > read somewhere that the engineer on the first session was a very
          > experienced Victor tech. Obviously HE knew how to do it. Shame he
          > didn't engineer all the acoustical Victor sessions, and those by other
          > companies.

          I find this suggestion particularly interesting because the 1913 James
          Reese Europe Victors also feature drumming of a kind one is always told
          couldn't be recorded acoustically.

          An alternative suggestion that I have seen for the decline in bass recording
          quality later in the acoustic era is that as cheap playing equipment became
          more widespread it was necessary to degrade recording quality to match.
          There is undoubtedly a decline in recording quality, also at the bass end,
          between recordings of the 1927-9 era and those made during the Depression
          and this also is put down to the greater prevalence of cheap equipment at
          that time.


          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        • Lynn Bayley
          My sincere thanks to Todd Robbins for his very thoughtful and thought-provoking reply, also to Chris Tyle and Howard Rye for confirming what I had read - on
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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            My sincere thanks to Todd Robbins for his very thoughtful and
            thought-provoking reply, also to Chris Tyle and Howard Rye for
            confirming what I had read - on the liner notes of the old RCA
            Vintage LP (which I think was by Rudi Blesh, but I'm not sure now) -
            that on their first Victor session, the bass drum kept knocking the
            cutting stylus off the disc, but that one of Victor's "crack
            engineers" found a way to place Sbarbaro's kit so that it could be
            clearly heard yet not disturb the recording process. I always kept
            this comment in mind when listening to the ODJB records.

            I concede that, yes, Bunk Johnson's 1944 records probably DO reflect
            some degree of a more modern influence, particularly in the feel of
            the jazz beat or swing, just as the ODJB's 1936 sides show a more
            relaxed beat than their original discs. But then there is Mr.
            Robbins' remark that these bands adapted their style to the
            environment in which they played, and the ODJB's function at
            Reisenweber's and elsewhere was to simply provide a dancing beat.
            When one listens to other N.O. bands of that vintage, particularly
            those of Fate Marable, King Oliver's CJB and Freddie Keppard, one
            also hears this stiff, ragtimey beat, but a much looser, more varied
            TEXTURE than one hears on the ODJB discs. I suppose that other will
            find me to be a historical heretic, in a way, but I have personally
            always loved the ODJB's 1936 recordings much more than their
            originals, historic though they may be, for the simple reason that
            the band is looser and there are real solos - especially by
            clarinetist Larry Shields.

            I've always considered Mr. Shields to be the real jazz "hero" of the
            ODJB. Even on those early discs, his breaks and riffs are, to my
            ears, the very jazziest things to be heard on them. On the 1936
            sides, he really shines.

            You know, in relistening to the ODJB, I was struck by a thought.
            LaRocca had so well-balanced the ensemble that no one instrument
            predominated, yet in a way - if one uses one's imagination - the
            interplay between the front line presages the big band work of
            pioneer white bands like Art Hickman's and Whiteman's. I know that
            Whiteman was one of the patrons at Reisenweber's who was impressed
            by the band. I wonder if he, or Ferde Grofe, conceived their ideas
            of instrumental texture from their hearing of the ODJB?

            If one concedes that most jazz bands of that era played stiffly
            (even Jelly Roll Morton's first Victors have what I call the "ricky-
            ticky" beat to them, though their musical conception is brilliant),
            then one must really give the New Orleans Rhythm Kings a lot of
            credit for innovation, and not just Leon Roppolo's clarinet solos.
            Listen to the ODJB, Marable, Oliver's CJB, the Lousiana Five and
            Freddie Keppard's discs. Then put on the NORK's very first discs,
            from 1922. The difference is startling. Right away, you hear in
            the NORK a more relaxed, loping beat, ensembles and solos that ride
            on the beat instead of pushing it aggressively: in short,
            real "swing." We know that this band greatly influenced all the
            white musicians in and around Chicago during those years. Could
            they, possibly, also have influenced Louis Armstrong in his
            development of the swing beat? Louis' 1923 and early 1924
            recordings only show a little of what was to come, but by the time
            he was with Fletcher Henderson in early 1925, you can clearly hear
            him loosening the Dixieland beat to produce a real swing.

            Just a few random thoughts for an overactive imagination!

            Cheers,
            Lynn
          • Lynn Bayley
            My sincere thanks to Todd Robbins for his very thoughtful and thought-provoking reply, also to Chris Tyle and Howard Rye for confirming what I had read - on
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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              My sincere thanks to Todd Robbins for his very thoughtful and
              thought-provoking reply, also to Chris Tyle and Howard Rye for
              confirming what I had read - on the liner notes of the old RCA
              Vintage LP (which I think was by Rudi Blesh, but I'm not sure now) -
              that on their first Victor session, the bass drum kept knocking the
              cutting stylus off the disc, but that one of Victor's "crack
              engineers" found a way to place Sbarbaro's kit so that it could be
              clearly heard yet not disturb the recording process. I always kept
              this comment in mind when listening to the ODJB records.

              I concede that, yes, Bunk Johnson's 1944 records probably DO reflect
              some degree of a more modern influence, particularly in the feel of
              the jazz beat or swing, just as the ODJB's 1936 sides show a more
              relaxed beat than their original discs. But then there is Mr.
              Robbins' remark that these bands adapted their style to the
              environment in which they played, and the ODJB's function at
              Reisenweber's and elsewhere was to simply provide a dancing beat.
              When one listens to other N.O. bands of that vintage, particularly
              those of Fate Marable, King Oliver's CJB and Freddie Keppard, one
              also hears this stiff, ragtimey beat, but a much looser, more varied
              TEXTURE than one hears on the ODJB discs. I suppose that other will
              find me to be a historical heretic, in a way, but I have personally
              always loved the ODJB's 1936 recordings much more than their
              originals, historic though they may be, for the simple reason that
              the band is looser and there are real solos - especially by
              clarinetist Larry Shields.

              I've always considered Mr. Shields to be the real jazz "hero" of the
              ODJB. Even on those early discs, his breaks and riffs are, to my
              ears, the very jazziest things to be heard on them. On the 1936
              sides, he really shines.

              You know, in relistening to the ODJB, I was struck by a thought.
              LaRocca had so well-balanced the ensemble that no one instrument
              predominated, yet in a way - if one uses one's imagination - the
              interplay between the front line presages the big band work of
              pioneer white bands like Art Hickman's and Whiteman's. I know that
              Whiteman was one of the patrons at Reisenweber's who was impressed
              by the band. I wonder if he, or Ferde Grofe, conceived their ideas
              of instrumental texture from their hearing of the ODJB?

              If one concedes that most jazz bands of that era played stiffly
              (even Jelly Roll Morton's first Victors have what I call the "ricky-
              ticky" beat to them, though their musical conception is brilliant),
              then one must really give the New Orleans Rhythm Kings a lot of
              credit for innovation, and not just Leon Roppolo's clarinet solos.
              Listen to the ODJB, Marable, Oliver's CJB, the Lousiana Five and
              Freddie Keppard's discs. Then put on the NORK's very first discs,
              from 1922. The difference is startling. Right away, you hear in
              the NORK a more relaxed, loping beat, ensembles and solos that ride
              on the beat instead of pushing it aggressively: in short,
              real "swing." We know that this band greatly influenced all the
              white musicians in and around Chicago during those years. Could
              they, possibly, also have influenced Louis Armstrong in his
              development of the swing beat? Louis' 1923 and early 1924
              recordings only show a little of what was to come, but by the time
              he was with Fletcher Henderson in early 1925, you can clearly hear
              him loosening the Dixieland beat to produce a real swing.

              Just a few random thoughts for an overactive imagination!

              Cheers,
              Lynn
            • Todd Robbins
              The post I made about not playing bass drum came from a converstation I had years ago with Pete Sbarbaro about what his father had told him. I might have
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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                The post I made about not playing bass drum came from a converstation I
                had years ago with Pete Sbarbaro about what his father had told him. I
                might have heard it wrong.

                Todd Robbins
              • David Brown
                Louis first recorded solo, Chimes Blues 6 April 1923 already shows his innovative rhythmic style. Chilton finds NORK a halfway house rhythmically between
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 15, 2006
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                  Louis' first recorded solo, 'Chimes Blues' 6 April 1923 already shows his
                  innovative rhythmic style.

                  Chilton finds NORK a' halfway house' rhythmically between ODJB & CJB, which
                  is what I hear.

                  'Loping' for NORK is good, it is not exactly swing.

                  ODJB, NORK and the Victor drum have all been previously discussed on the
                  forum without any suggestion that the latter was not bass.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • soundofcd
                  My understanding is, and please don t ask where I read it, that the bass drum became outlawed on acoustic recordings because the bass frequency hit the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 16, 2006
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                    My understanding is, and please don't ask where I read it, that the
                    bass drum became outlawed on acoustic recordings because the bass
                    frequency hit the recording horn with such a thud that it tended to
                    jerk the stylus clean out of the groove. Anyone who has lived next to
                    an unsoundproofed disco will know just what I mean.

                    Possibly the Victor engineers didn't realise this could happen prior
                    to the first ODJB session and struggled along with it.

                    Cheers,

                    Fred McCormick


                    Of course the great mystery is, if Victor let him play the bass drum
                    on the earliest session, why was it omitted later on? It seems to me I
                    read somewhere that the engineer on the first session was a very
                    experienced Victor tech. Obviously HE knew how to do it. Shame he
                    didn't engineer all the acoustical Victor sessions, and those by other
                    companies.

                    Cheers,
                    Chris Tyle
                  • Howard Rye
                    ... My understanding, and ditto, is that this is the explanation, but that it happened on playback on cheap equipment, rather than at the recording stylus.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 16, 2006
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                      on 16/8/06 10:42, soundofcd at Fredamhran@... wrote:

                      > My understanding is, and please don't ask where I read it, that the
                      > bass drum became outlawed on acoustic recordings because the bass
                      > frequency hit the recording horn with such a thud that it tended to
                      > jerk the stylus clean out of the groove. Anyone who has lived next to
                      > an unsoundproofed disco will know just what I mean.

                      My understanding, and ditto, is that this is the explanation, but that it
                      happened on playback on cheap equipment, rather than at the recording
                      stylus. Listen to the 1913 Europes and you'll find the recording equipment
                      could handle some pretty hefty thumping. (Of course you'll need a reissue
                      from a 78 which hasn't had the detail scoured out by steel needles.) While
                      the lateral cut patents endured they could guarantee the playback equipment
                      matched. Once anyone could market a "Victrola" it was another story.

                      I remember hearing people talk about some discs being "too strong" for their
                      crummy wind-ups, and what this appears to have meant is that the discs were
                      too heavily modulated for the five pound soundbox to negotiate the
                      modulations safely. Pre-war windups were generally pretty useless at playing
                      post-war 78s.

                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    • soundofcd
                      Could be. I bought an LP by the English acapella folk group, the Watersons, once - Frost and Fire. On one track they beat a drum on certain line endings. There
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 16, 2006
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                        Could be. I bought an LP by the English acapella folk group, the
                        Watersons, once - Frost and Fire. On one track they beat a drum on
                        certain line endings. There was a printed slip inside the sleeve
                        saying that this caused the stylus to veer sharply and they hoped
                        nobody had tracking problems.

                        Maybe the problem with the bass percussion on acoustic recordings
                        didn't come to light until after the ODJB record was released.

                        Cheers,

                        Fred Mccormick.

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > on 16/8/06 10:42, soundofcd at Fredamhran@... wrote:
                        >
                        > > My understanding is, and please don't ask where I read it, that
                        the
                        > > bass drum became outlawed on acoustic recordings because the bass
                        > > frequency hit the recording horn with such a thud that it tended
                        to
                        > > jerk the stylus clean out of the groove. Anyone who has lived
                        next to
                        > > an unsoundproofed disco will know just what I mean.
                        >
                        > My understanding, and ditto, is that this is the explanation, but
                        that it
                        > happened on playback on cheap equipment, rather than at the
                        recording
                        > stylus. Listen to the 1913 Europes and you'll find the recording
                        equipment
                        > could handle some pretty hefty thumping. (Of course you'll need a
                        reissue
                        > from a 78 which hasn't had the detail scoured out by steel
                        needles.) While
                        > the lateral cut patents endured they could guarantee the playback
                        equipment
                        > matched. Once anyone could market a "Victrola" it was another story.
                        >
                        > I remember hearing people talk about some discs being "too strong"
                        for their
                        > crummy wind-ups, and what this appears to have meant is that the
                        discs were
                        > too heavily modulated for the five pound soundbox to negotiate the
                        > modulations safely. Pre-war windups were generally pretty useless
                        at playing
                        > post-war 78s.
                        >
                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        > howard@...
                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >
                      • Ron L'Herault
                        Weren t the Europes on Pathe verticals? I think they could handle bass drums better. And it probably was not so much that it was cheap equipment for playback
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 16, 2006
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                          Weren't the Europes on Pathe verticals? I think they could handle bass
                          drums better. And it probably was not so much that it was cheap equipment
                          for playback rather it was because the state of the art did not have enough
                          compliance.

                          Ron

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Howard Rye
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:19 AM
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Tony Sbarbaro and the bass drum on
                          Victorsessions

                          on 16/8/06 10:42, soundofcd at Fredamhran@... wrote:

                          > My understanding is, and please don't ask where I read it, that the
                          > bass drum became outlawed on acoustic recordings because the bass
                          > frequency hit the recording horn with such a thud that it tended to
                          > jerk the stylus clean out of the groove. Anyone who has lived next to
                          > an unsoundproofed disco will know just what I mean.

                          My understanding, and ditto, is that this is the explanation, but that it
                          happened on playback on cheap equipment, rather than at the recording
                          stylus. Listen to the 1913 Europes and you'll find the recording equipment
                          could handle some pretty hefty thumping. (Of course you'll need a reissue
                          from a 78 which hasn't had the detail scoured out by steel needles.) While
                          the lateral cut patents endured they could guarantee the playback equipment
                          matched. Once anyone could market a "Victrola" it was another story.

                          I remember hearing people talk about some discs being "too strong" for their
                          crummy wind-ups, and what this appears to have meant is that the discs were
                          too heavily modulated for the five pound soundbox to negotiate the
                          modulations safely. Pre-war windups were generally pretty useless at playing
                          post-war 78s.

                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098





                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Howard Rye
                          ... Yes the Europes on Pathe (1919) are vertical. However, I was writing about the 1913-14 Victors, which are lateral! Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 17, 2006
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                            on 17/8/06 2:44, Ron L'Herault at lherault@... wrote:

                            > Weren't the Europes on Pathe verticals? I think they could handle bass
                            > drums better. And it probably was not so much that it was cheap equipment
                            > for playback rather it was because the state of the art did not have enough
                            > compliance.

                            Yes the Europes on Pathe (1919) are vertical.

                            However, I was writing about the 1913-14 Victors, which are lateral!

                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            howard@...
                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                          • Ron L'Herault
                            Oops, my bad. Actually, I ve noticed that a lot of early lateral recordings sound a lot better than the slightly later acousticals. I wonder if they dumbed
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 17, 2006
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                              Oops, my bad.

                              Actually, I've noticed that a lot of early lateral recordings sound a
                              lot better than the slightly later acousticals. I wonder if they
                              "dumbed them down" when internal horn machines became the norm.
                              External horn players always sound better. I have a Columbia 12" from
                              the early teens, Prince's band I think (disk is at home) of 'Ballin' the
                              Jack" that is just fantastic in its volume and clarity/fidelity(for the
                              times). And yes, I hear drums, especially snares but also, I believe,
                              bass drums.

                              Ron L
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Howard Rye
                              Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 5:54 AM
                              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Tony Sbarbaro and the bass drum
                              onVictorsessions

                              on 17/8/06 2:44, Ron L'Herault at lherault@... wrote:

                              > Weren't the Europes on Pathe verticals? I think they could handle
                              bass
                              > drums better. And it probably was not so much that it was cheap
                              equipment
                              > for playback rather it was because the state of the art did not have
                              enough
                              > compliance.

                              Yes the Europes on Pathe (1919) are vertical.

                              However, I was writing about the 1913-14 Victors, which are lateral!

                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098





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