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"Corrinne" tp solo mystery solved

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  • Lynn Bayley
    Hi group, There seems to have been a lot of speculation and confusion regarding the trumpet solo on Red Nichols recording of Corrinne Corrina. I glibly
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 8, 2006
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      Hi group,

      There seems to have been a lot of speculation and confusion
      regarding the "trumpet" solo on Red Nichols' recording of "Corrinne
      Corrina." I glibly posted a few weeks ago that I thought it was
      Johnny "Scat" Davis, but that was before I checked the personnel and
      re-listened to the record last night.

      That's when I remembered that this was Ralph Berton's favorite Red
      Nichols disc. (His second-favorite was "Boneyard Shuffle," for
      obvious reasons.) When he first heard it in 1931 he, like I,
      thought the solo was possibly on a kazoo. Twenty-eight years later,
      after "The Red Nichols Story" had been made, Ralph met up with Red
      again and asked him about it.

      Red told him it was Wingy Manone, buzzing and humming through his
      mouthpiece.

      So, now you know why it sounds so weird. I'm not sure that Manone
      ever attempted this again (sorry, but I'm not a huge Wingy Manone
      fan).

      Cheers,
      Lynn
    • Mordechai Litzman
      Hi Lynn, Just wanted to tell you that Tar Paper Stomp with Barbecue Joe and His Hot Dogs is one of my favorites (and one of my finds on the RHJA). Enough to
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 8, 2006
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        Hi Lynn,
        Just wanted to tell you that Tar Paper Stomp with Barbecue Joe and His Hot Dogs is one of my favorites (and one of my "finds" on the RHJA). Enough to make me a fan of Wingy Manone....

        Lynn Bayley <lynnrbayley@...> wrote: Hi group,

        There seems to have been a lot of speculation and confusion
        regarding the "trumpet" solo on Red Nichols' recording of "Corrinne
        Corrina." I glibly posted a few weeks ago that I thought it was
        Johnny "Scat" Davis, but that was before I checked the personnel and
        re-listened to the record last night.

        That's when I remembered that this was Ralph Berton's favorite Red
        Nichols disc. (His second-favorite was "Boneyard Shuffle," for
        obvious reasons.) When he first heard it in 1931 he, like I,
        thought the solo was possibly on a kazoo. Twenty-eight years later,
        after "The Red Nichols Story" had been made, Ralph met up with Red
        again and asked him about it.

        Red told him it was Wingy Manone, buzzing and humming through his
        mouthpiece.

        So, now you know why it sounds so weird. I'm not sure that Manone
        ever attempted this again (sorry, but I'm not a huge Wingy Manone
        fan).

        Cheers,
        Lynn






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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Many thanks Lynn. I ve just relistened and have no reason to doubt your explanation. I can definitely hear the full three trumpet section immediately before
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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          Many thanks Lynn.

          I've just relistened and have no reason to doubt your explanation. I can
          definitely hear the full three trumpet section immediately before and after
          the apparently muted solo.

          The enigma always was that, although the phrasing was quintessentially
          Wingie, it seemed impossible that he could manipulate the mute ormutes
          necessary to produce this quasi wa-wa effect.

          I am surprised that such a sound can be mouthpiece only produced. Is there
          any brass player on the Forum who can comment ? Also ,as so redolent, why
          did Wingie not use it before or after ? Or did he ?

          Otherwise this seems a small but interesting footnote 'from the horse's
          mouth' to be added to Jazz History, amazingly 75 years after the event.

          And I wonder therefore why Wingie, writing a mere 17 years after the event,
          failed to remember or misremembered this session .

          Dave


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Albert Haim
          Very intereting. Are there other examples of recordings where a trumpet (or trombone, see below) mouthpiece is used? At least one Bixophile has speculated that
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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            Very intereting. Are there other examples of recordings where a
            trumpet (or trombone, see below) mouthpiece is used?

            At least one Bixophile has speculated that Brunies' 16-bar kazoo solo
            in the 1924 Wolverines "Lazy Daddy" is not really a kazoo, but a
            trombone mouthpiece. Does that make sense?

            Albert

            PS In "Red Head, A Chronological Survey of "Red" Nichols and His Five
            Pennies," Stephen Stroff writes about Corinna, Corinna, "There is a
            four-trumpet intro with clarinet and trombone commentary, reviving
            (however briefly) the brass-ensemble-with-small-group concept that Red
            favored for a while in 1927-28. This is followed by a Manone vocal, a
            little better in pitch; then a trumpet section improvisation for three
            choruses, particularly good in the second, with Goodman's clarinet
            wailing overhead in the third. This is followed by a muted Manone,
            then Glenn Miller on trombone, quite bluesy and good. After that is a
            typical Miller device, a trumpet section riff with one trumpet holding
            a high Bb (Charlie Teagarden, it seems). After two choruses, an upward
            glissando smear to a high Bb ends it."
            Warning: several people feel that Stroff's book is plagued with errors.

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn Bayley" <lynnrbayley@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi group,
            >
            > There seems to have been a lot of speculation and confusion
            > regarding the "trumpet" solo on Red Nichols' recording of "Corrinne
            > Corrina." I glibly posted a few weeks ago that I thought it was
            > Johnny "Scat" Davis, but that was before I checked the personnel and
            > re-listened to the record last night.
            >
            > That's when I remembered that this was Ralph Berton's favorite Red
            > Nichols disc. (His second-favorite was "Boneyard Shuffle," for
            > obvious reasons.) When he first heard it in 1931 he, like I,
            > thought the solo was possibly on a kazoo. Twenty-eight years later,
            > after "The Red Nichols Story" had been made, Ralph met up with Red
            > again and asked him about it.
            >
            > Red told him it was Wingy Manone, buzzing and humming through his
            > mouthpiece.
            >
            > So, now you know why it sounds so weird. I'm not sure that Manone
            > ever attempted this again (sorry, but I'm not a huge Wingy Manone
            > fan).
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Lynn
            >
          • spacelights
            I wonder if the same technique appears on Ma Rainey s session of May, 1925... There s a forceful wah-wah sound resembling a kazoo, but it does sometimes
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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              I wonder if the same technique appears on Ma Rainey's session of May,
              1925... There's a forceful wah-wah sound resembling a kazoo, but it
              does sometimes border on a cornet's sound. Usually listed as kazoo,
              in 'Storyville 1998-9' Laurie Wright describes it as "a fiercely
              played kazoo or possibly muted cornet."

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn Bayley" <lynnrbayley@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi group,
              >
              > There seems to have been a lot of speculation and confusion
              > regarding the "trumpet" solo on Red Nichols' recording of "Corrinne
              > Corrina." I glibly posted a few weeks ago that I thought it was
              > Johnny "Scat" Davis, but that was before I checked the personnel and
              > re-listened to the record last night.
              >
              > That's when I remembered that this was Ralph Berton's favorite Red
              > Nichols disc. (His second-favorite was "Boneyard Shuffle," for
              > obvious reasons.) When he first heard it in 1931 he, like I,
              > thought the solo was possibly on a kazoo. Twenty-eight years later,
              > after "The Red Nichols Story" had been made, Ralph met up with Red
              > again and asked him about it.
              >
              > Red told him it was Wingy Manone, buzzing and humming through his
              > mouthpiece.
              >
              > So, now you know why it sounds so weird. I'm not sure that Manone
              > ever attempted this again (sorry, but I'm not a huge Wingy Manone
              > fan).
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Lynn
              >
            • Lynn Bayley
              ... So was Nichols. Red told Ralph that, when Wingy told him before the session what he was going to do, Red said, You re crazy! Wingy said, Let me try
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                wrote:

                >I am surprised that such a sound can be mouthpiece only produced

                So was Nichols. Red told Ralph that, when Wingy told him before the
                session what he was going to do, Red said, "You're crazy!" Wingy
                said, "Let me try it, if you don't like it we can do it over."
                Nichols and the band had to stifle a laugh when he rehearsed it, but
                the phrasing was so down and dirty that they loved it, and so let
                him do it on the record.

                >I wonder therefore why Wingie, writing a mere 17 years after the
                event, failed to remember or misremembered this session.

                I think that one thing we fail to take into consideration is that
                jazz musicians normally don't burn their recording session events
                into their minds the way collectors do. Max Kaminsky, for instance,
                hated to be questioned about old records. His attitude was, it was
                a gig, it was 30 or 40 years ago, if the personnel wasn't listed
                don't ask ME to remember it! This also explains why some musicians'
                memories are so bad. Red Nichols, fortunately or otherwise, had a
                photographic memory. As late as 1964, he wrote to Nichols collector
                Stan Hester that he distinctly remembered that Eddie Lang replaced
                Dick McDonough on the Don Voorhees record of "Baby's Blue." It
                wasn't something he consciously kept in his mind – he could just
                remember EVERYTHING. A shame the poor man didn't live long enough
                for his reputation to be re-evaluated. One reason why Red retreated
                into fairly routine Dixieland work after WW2 was that he began to
                believe the critical backlash that he was a "poor man's
                Beiderbecke," that he didn't swing, and therefore he wasn't a real
                jazz musician.

                Lynn
              • Lynn Bayley
                ... errors. I would be interested to know what they are. This particular Manone reference may simply be attributed to the fact that he didn t know, or
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                  > Warning: several people feel that Stroff's book is plagued with
                  errors.

                  I would be interested to know what they are. This particular Manone
                  reference may simply be attributed to the fact that he didn't know, or
                  imagine, the mouthpiece-only option. Most of his information was
                  culled from known Nichols experts Stan and Steve Hester, Max Kaminsky
                  and the late trad clarinetist Frank Powers who had a vast collection as
                  well as great knowledge of the era. And, if I am not mistaken, the
                  editor for the Scarecrow Jazz Studies series was Dan Morgenstern, who
                  found it to be an excellent piece of research.

                  Lynn
                • Albert Haim
                  Some people have complained about discographical information in the book, and about opinions expressed by Stroff. To protect privacy, I do not wish to give
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 9, 2006
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                    Some people have complained about discographical information in the
                    book, and about opinions expressed by Stroff. To protect privacy, I do
                    not wish to give names, but the details are available in the internet
                    to be found by appropriate googling.

                    I personally have found Stroff's book useful. Discographical
                    discrepancies are, unfortunatley, inevitable since discography is not
                    an exact science. (Certainly this is not a revelation to the members
                    of this list).

                    Any other examples of recordings with musicians using trumpet mouthpieces?

                    Albert

                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Lynn Bayley" <lynnrbayley@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                    > > Warning: several people feel that Stroff's book is plagued with
                    > errors.
                    >
                    > I would be interested to know what they are. This particular Manone
                    > reference may simply be attributed to the fact that he didn't know, or
                    > imagine, the mouthpiece-only option. Most of his information was
                    > culled from known Nichols experts Stan and Steve Hester, Max Kaminsky
                    > and the late trad clarinetist Frank Powers who had a vast collection as
                    > well as great knowledge of the era. And, if I am not mistaken, the
                    > editor for the Scarecrow Jazz Studies series was Dan Morgenstern, who
                    > found it to be an excellent piece of research.
                    >
                    > Lynn
                    >
                  • David Brown
                    Re. Stroff. He does pick the solo as Wingie, although not explaining how he could wield the mutes. But there are obviously only 3 trumpets in the section
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 10, 2006
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                      Re. Stroff. He does pick the solo as Wingie, although not explaining how he
                      could wield the mutes. But there are obviously only 3 trumpets in the
                      section initially, and after the vocal, as Wingie would not have time to
                      take down or pick up.

                      Also Wingie's own version of the session in 'Trumpet On The Wing' conforms
                      this beyond doubt, I think, and that the long held high -- surprisingly high
                      for Wingie -- note at the end is his.

                      As regards his --and musicians' generally --failure of memory --it is
                      surprising in this instance as this was apparently such a singular and
                      successful excursion into mouthpiece technique especially as he seems to
                      have otherwise almost accurate recall of the session.

                      However this does impel us to scepticism not only of 'established '
                      personnels and critical opinion but also musicians' tales.

                      Dave



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lynn Bayley
                      ... an exact science. (Certainly this is not a revelation to the members of this list). Thank you for your clear explanation and balanced view of the book. I,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 10, 2006
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                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:

                        > I personally have found Stroff's book useful. Discographical
                        > discrepancies are, unfortunatley, inevitable since discography is not
                        an exact science. (Certainly this is not a revelation to the members of
                        this list).

                        Thank you for your clear explanation and balanced view of the book. I,
                        too, have found it illuminating, even some of his controversial
                        opinions! As for the discographical information, he and I shared a
                        mutual friend who explained that he had to make compromises between
                        what Mr. Hester said (most of which he followed) and what other
                        sources, particularly but not limited to Brian Rust, had to say...but
                        as you said, this kind of information is scarcely an exact science,
                        especially since complete files were not usually kept.

                        Happy listening!
                        Lynn
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