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Coleman Source

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  • David Brown
    Rust lists alts. for 4 Bill Coleman Paris sides of 31 Jan 1936, OLA 849, 850, 851, 852. I have as many issues of these wonderful sides as possible but have yet
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 11, 2006
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      Rust lists alts. for 4 Bill Coleman Paris sides of 31 Jan 1936, OLA 849,
      850, 851, 852.

      I have as many issues of these wonderful sides as possible but have yet to
      find any alts, all issues seemingly the -1 takes.

      The alts. also appear in the pre-Rust 'Jazz Directory' which I think
      probably his source for them.

      Anybody know if there were alts. and if so where they were issued .

      Dave


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    • Howard Rye
      ... According to Brard and Nevers Le Jazz En France in respect of both couplings. Two takes recorded of both titles. Second takes never processed . If this is
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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        on 12/6/06 7:35, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        > Rust lists alts. for 4 Bill Coleman Paris sides of 31 Jan 1936, OLA 849,
        > 850, 851, 852.
        >
        > I have as many issues of these wonderful sides as possible but have yet to
        > find any alts, all issues seemingly the -1 takes.
        >
        > The alts. also appear in the pre-Rust 'Jazz Directory' which I think
        > probably his source for them.
        >
        > Anybody know if there were alts. and if so where they were issued .

        According to Brard and Nevers Le Jazz En France in respect of both
        couplings. "Two takes recorded of both titles. Second takes never
        processed". If this is true, they definitely do not exist since there cannot
        even be test pressings.

        It seems clear no one has ever heard them. They are not noted in Jan
        Evensmo's Bill Coleman Solography so are not in circulation.

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • David Brown
        Many thanks as ever Howard. What is the date of Le Jazz En France which I guess as the source then of the original entry in Jazz Directory ? What status
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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          Many thanks as ever Howard. What is the date of 'Le Jazz En France' which I
          guess as the source then of the original entry in 'Jazz Directory' ?

          What status should 'not processed' have in a discography ? None I
          uggest --- or certainly a note as to 'unprocessed' rather than 'unissued'.



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        • Howard Rye
          ... Le Jazz en France published in 3 vols 1989-91. This from Vol. 3, 1991, so original file data. JD probably results just from someone s misreading of file
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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            on 12/6/06 11:40, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

            > Many thanks as ever Howard. What is the date of 'Le Jazz En France' which I
            > guess as the source then of the original entry in 'Jazz Directory' ?

            Le Jazz en France published in 3 vols 1989-91. This from Vol. 3, 1991, so
            original file data. JD probably results just from someone's misreading of
            file data. An alternative possibility is that there might be (post-war)
            re-pressings of these issues using dub-masters. It was standard EMI practice
            to give dub-masters the next take number up from the master dubbed even if
            this take suffix already applied to a genuine take. This has caused a lot of
            confusion, but if this is the explanation I would expect Brard and Nevers to
            be aware and to have noted it.

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • David Brown
            Thanks again Howard. Jazz Directory dates from 1950 --or second d.1955 --so the Nevers cannot be the source and I doubt that Carey or McCarthy had access
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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              Thanks again Howard. 'Jazz Directory' dates from 1950 --or second
              d.1955 --so the Nevers cannot be the source and I doubt that Carey or
              McCarthy had access to Swing label files. Was Swing label in 1936 then
              already subsumed by EMI ? I think not.

              JD shows same issue numbers for both takes on all titles. Which means ?

              I think much of the Swing treasure was locked away, lost, till recent years.
              I think originally very few alts. ever appeared. Who owns it now?





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            • Howard Rye
              ... Swing was a branch of Pathé-Marconi from the start, but in any case these are on Disques Gramophone (which Rust calls French HMV for reasons best known to
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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                on 12/6/06 14:58, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                > Thanks again Howard. 'Jazz Directory' dates from 1950 --or second
                > d.1955 --so the Nevers cannot be the source and I doubt that Carey or
                > McCarthy had access to Swing label files. Was Swing label in 1936 then
                > already subsumed by EMI ? I think not.
                >
                > JD shows same issue numbers for both takes on all titles. Which means ?
                >
                > I think much of the Swing treasure was locked away, lost, till recent years.
                > I think originally very few alts. ever appeared. Who owns it now?

                Swing was a branch of Pathé-Marconi from the start, but in any case these
                are on Disques Gramophone (which Rust calls French HMV for reasons best
                known to himself) and were recorded over a year before Delaunay and Panassié
                established Swing. The first master assigned to Swing was OLA-1703 recorded
                on 21 April 1937. These Coleman sides are correctly shown as "GrF" in JD.

                Filing relating to the OLA- master series is held at Hayes and might have
                been seen by the authors of JD, but I grant you their information more
                likely comes from Delaunay, who had free access to the French files. Some
                time I'll look at these myself and see what the files really say, but I
                guess they say what Brard and Nevers say they say.

                Swing masters up to 1951 are owned by EMI, though of course all are out of
                copyright. The name itself was owned by Charles Delaunay who moved the label
                to Vogue in 1951 and subsequent Swing masters belong to whoever currently
                owns Vogue.

                A glance through Michel Ruppli's Swing Discography (1989), where I just
                checked this information, suggests that you are right that the vast majority
                of Swing issues used take-1. A lot of unissued material from the war years
                especially appeared in French EMI's short-lived Jazz-Time series of CDs in
                the 1990s. Unfortunately these survived in the catalogues only until the
                accountants noticed them and are now as hard to get as the 78s!



                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              • David Brown
                Howard Many thanks for your fascinating input on Swing , a great label. Yes I have and recommend all the Jazz Time CDs you can get. Also nice transfers.
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 13, 2006
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                  Howard

                  Many thanks for your fascinating input on 'Swing', a great label. Yes I have
                  and recommend all the 'Jazz Time ' CDs you can get. Also nice transfers.
                  Also nice graphics.

                  The notes for that series suggested there was a treasure of stuff never
                  issued. The Jazz Times were also a Nevers production, a name always
                  associated with quality issues. Is he still with us ?

                  Also where are the lost Swing treasures likely to be. Who owns them ?

                  Dave





                  .




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                • Howard Rye
                  ... As far as I know, yes. ... French EMI. Anything which remains unissued after the Jazz Time series will still be in their vaults if it survives.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 13, 2006
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                    on 14/6/06 7:08, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                    > The notes for that series suggested there was a treasure of stuff never
                    > issued. The Jazz Times were also a Nevers production, a name always
                    > associated with quality issues. Is he still with us ?

                    As far as I know, yes.
                    >
                    > Also where are the lost Swing treasures likely to be. Who owns them ?

                    French EMI. Anything which remains unissued after the Jazz Time series will
                    still be in their vaults if it survives.

                    Contemporary test pressings could be anywhere, in the hands of the artists'
                    descendants, in the Delaunay collection (Phonothèque Nationale?), in the
                    hands of anyone to whom Delaunay gave copies at the time. There may even by
                    some in the Panassié Collection (Discothèque Municipale de Villefrance de
                    Rouergue).

                    Frémeaux have drawn on some of the likely collections for their Django
                    Intégrale but I don't recall much previously unissued material from Swing.
                    To extract anything from EMI of course requires either a clever operative
                    capable of hoodwinking the bean counters (and Daniel Nevers has done his bit
                    there) or a multi-millionaire offering a leasing deal they can't refuse, and
                    we seem to be a bit short of them.


                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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