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Re: [RedHotJazz] Creoles (in the census)

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  • Howard Rye
    ... I think the testimony of Lee Collins is fairly conclusive. See Johnny Simmen s article on Sidney in Storyville 37, where he also reports that Joe Robichaux
    Message 1 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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      on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

      > Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a remark
      > by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is frequently
      > categorised as "white".
      >
      I think the testimony of Lee Collins is fairly conclusive. See Johnny
      Simmen's article on Sidney in Storyville 37, where he also reports that Joe
      Robichaux told Brian Rust that Sidney was passing.

      Robichaux is quoted "when Sidney recorded with the Jones and Collins Astoria
      Hot Eight he was with me of his own race while his presence on the other
      dates made these groups automatically "mixed groups". All the negro
      performers knew about it, but the white musicians with whom Sidney worked
      all his life had no idea that he was colored person."

      Simmen comments that he doubts the latter statement is correct, and he
      brings up the Louis Prima quote in evidence. Prima had an evil reputation
      amongst black musicians so it's anyone's guess what the significance of this
      is.



      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
    • Bob Eagle
      My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent on the
      Message 2 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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        My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent on the state) in which the state was in limbo, until it had reached a satisfactory level of reorganization to merit being readmitted to the Union.

        There then generally followed the carpet bag era when it seems that some white politicians manipulated the black minority vote for their own ends.

        When white voters recovered their power (mainly 1890s), the Jim Crow movement saw its apogee, which I believe is the period when the losses of status reached their maximum levels.

        Bob

        Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
        The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more laissez-faire latin society of the "old" south. The Creoles, who had in some cases enjoyed privileges like owning slaves (but not all) were now lumped together with their former slaves, or at least with people at whom they would have looked down their noses. As in situations of this kind, people reacted differently - thiss is illustrated clearly in Howard's post.

        Jelly Roll Morton is an interesting case, since he stated his family came from the shores of France and was obviously proud of the fact, but he took the course of resorting to all kinds of legitimate and illegitimate activity with a goal of achieving recognition (pimping, winning money as a card shark, playing in a bordello, but towards the end of his life trying to underline his role as a pivotal figure in the history of jazz and swing, making the then-existing distinction here).

        While the Creoles made many contributions to jazz, we should not overlook the role of other musicians: Buddy Bolden was not a Creole and is part of a "lowdown and hot school which is contrasted with the more genteel music of John Robichaux, the Tios et al.

        Even in the 1910s and 1920s, musicians seem to have overlooked differences if it suited them: there the known examples of Achil(l)e Baquet and Dave Perkins. Baquet seems to have reacted by ultimately denying his African ancestors although I have an e-mail from the late Frank Powers in which he says George Brunis told him all the musicians knew he was black. "Apparently Achille was very handsome and when the Creole girls would call out his name while strolling by the cabaret where he played, Achille would pretend not to hear them much to the mirth of his fellow musicians" (personal communication from F. Powers, 5 October 1995).

        The difference to the 1930s and why Benny Goodman gets the credit for racial integration is that in the first three decades of the 20th century bands hid the fact that musicians were Afro-Americans: Jelly Roll Morton was apparently able to record with the NORK by posing as a "Mexican" and Bill Moore of whose geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on his recordings with the California Ramblers.

        Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a remark by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is frequently categorised as "white".

        This wouldn't be important were it not for the fact that any trace of African blood had led to people being segregated. In my own country we had another example of this more recently with even more devastating results, so maybe I should don a tin helmet too.


        Michael Rader

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      • Howard Rye
        on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@web.de wrote: Bill Moore of whose ... He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was
        Message 3 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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          on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

          Bill Moore of whose
          > geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on his
          > recordings with the California Ramblers.
          >
          He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was from
          Ohio, his mother from Louisiana. The Louisiana connection surprised me,
          though his mother's birth name does not suggest a Creole origin.

          He is a very successful case of "passing" musically as well as socially. I
          wonder when the rumor of this first appeared in print. Anyone know?

          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        • Howard Rye
          ... Yet another ruddy typo - really the 1920 census! Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk Tel/FAX: +44 20
          Message 4 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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            on 5/5/06 16:35, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

            > on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
            >
            > Bill Moore of whose
            >> geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on
            >> his
            >> recordings with the California Ramblers.
            >>
            > He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was from
            > Ohio, his mother from Louisiana. The Louisiana connection surprised me,
            > though his mother's birth name does not suggest a Creole origin.
            >
            > He is a very successful case of "passing" musically as well as socially. I
            > wonder when the rumor of this first appeared in print. Anyone know?

            Yet another ruddy typo - really the 1920 census!

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Prof_Hi_Jinx
            Oops - people should read period (Tired and emotional). Bob ... From: Bob Eagle To: Sent:
            Message 5 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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              Oops - "people" should read "period"

              (Tired and emotional).

              Bob

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bob Eagle" <prof_hi_jinx@...>
              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:50 PM
              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Creoles (in the census)


              My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the
              chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent
              on the state) in which the state was in limbo, until it had reached a
              satisfactory level of reorganization to merit being readmitted to the Union.

              There then generally followed the carpet bag era when it seems that some
              white politicians manipulated the black minority vote for their own ends.

              When white voters recovered their power (mainly 1890s), the Jim Crow
              movement saw its apogee, which I believe is the period when the losses of
              status reached their maximum levels.

              Bob

              Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
              The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and
              the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more
              laissez-faire latin society of the "old" south. The Creoles, who had in some
              cases enjoyed privileges like owning slaves (but not all) were now lumped
              together with their former slaves, or at least with people at whom they
              would have looked down their noses. As in situations of this kind, people
              reacted differently - thiss is illustrated clearly in Howard's post.

              Jelly Roll Morton is an interesting case, since he stated his family came
              from the shores of France and was obviously proud of the fact, but he took
              the course of resorting to all kinds of legitimate and illegitimate activity
              with a goal of achieving recognition (pimping, winning money as a card
              shark, playing in a bordello, but towards the end of his life trying to
              underline his role as a pivotal figure in the history of jazz and swing,
              making the then-existing distinction here).

              While the Creoles made many contributions to jazz, we should not overlook
              the role of other musicians: Buddy Bolden was not a Creole and is part of a
              "lowdown and hot school which is contrasted with the more genteel music of
              John Robichaux, the Tios et al.

              Even in the 1910s and 1920s, musicians seem to have overlooked differences
              if it suited them: there the known examples of Achil(l)e Baquet and Dave
              Perkins. Baquet seems to have reacted by ultimately denying his African
              ancestors although I have an e-mail from the late Frank Powers in which he
              says George Brunis told him all the musicians knew he was black. "Apparently
              Achille was very handsome and when the Creole girls would call out his name
              while strolling by the cabaret where he played, Achille would pretend not to
              hear them much to the mirth of his fellow musicians" (personal communication
              from F. Powers, 5 October 1995).

              The difference to the 1930s and why Benny Goodman gets the credit for racial
              integration is that in the first three decades of the 20th century bands hid
              the fact that musicians were Afro-Americans: Jelly Roll Morton was
              apparently able to record with the NORK by posing as a "Mexican" and Bill
              Moore of whose geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the
              "Hot Hawaian" on his recordings with the California Ramblers.

              Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a
              remark by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is
              frequently categorised as "white".

              This wouldn't be important were it not for the fact that any trace of
              African blood had led to people being segregated. In my own country we had
              another example of this more recently with even more devastating results, so
              maybe I should don a tin helmet too.


              Michael Rader

              _______________________________________________________________
              SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
              kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192





              Yahoo! Groups Links










              ---------------------------------
              On Yahoo!7
              Answers: Real people ask and answer questions on any topic.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              Yahoo! Groups Links
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