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Re: [RedHotJazz] Creoles (in the census)

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  • Michael Rader
    The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more
    Message 1 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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      The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more laissez-faire latin society of the "old" south. The Creoles, who had in some cases enjoyed privileges like owning slaves (but not all) were now lumped together with their former slaves, or at least with people at whom they would have looked down their noses. As in situations of this kind, people reacted differently - thiss is illustrated clearly in Howard's post.

      Jelly Roll Morton is an interesting case, since he stated his family came from the shores of France and was obviously proud of the fact, but he took the course of resorting to all kinds of legitimate and illegitimate activity with a goal of achieving recognition (pimping, winning money as a card shark, playing in a bordello, but towards the end of his life trying to underline his role as a pivotal figure in the history of jazz and swing, making the then-existing distinction here).

      While the Creoles made many contributions to jazz, we should not overlook the role of other musicians: Buddy Bolden was not a Creole and is part of a "lowdown and hot school which is contrasted with the more genteel music of John Robichaux, the Tios et al.

      Even in the 1910s and 1920s, musicians seem to have overlooked differences if it suited them: there the known examples of Achil(l)e Baquet and Dave Perkins. Baquet seems to have reacted by ultimately denying his African ancestors although I have an e-mail from the late Frank Powers in which he says George Brunis told him all the musicians knew he was black. "Apparently Achille was very handsome and when the Creole girls would call out his name while strolling by the cabaret where he played, Achille would pretend not to hear them much to the mirth of his fellow musicians" (personal communication from F. Powers, 5 October 1995).

      The difference to the 1930s and why Benny Goodman gets the credit for racial integration is that in the first three decades of the 20th century bands hid the fact that musicians were Afro-Americans: Jelly Roll Morton was apparently able to record with the NORK by posing as a "Mexican" and Bill Moore of whose geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on his recordings with the California Ramblers.

      Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a remark by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is frequently categorised as "white".

      This wouldn't be important were it not for the fact that any trace of African blood had led to people being segregated. In my own country we had another example of this more recently with even more devastating results, so maybe I should don a tin helmet too.


      Michael Rader

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    • Howard Rye
      ... I think the testimony of Lee Collins is fairly conclusive. See Johnny Simmen s article on Sidney in Storyville 37, where he also reports that Joe Robichaux
      Message 2 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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        on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

        > Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a remark
        > by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is frequently
        > categorised as "white".
        >
        I think the testimony of Lee Collins is fairly conclusive. See Johnny
        Simmen's article on Sidney in Storyville 37, where he also reports that Joe
        Robichaux told Brian Rust that Sidney was passing.

        Robichaux is quoted "when Sidney recorded with the Jones and Collins Astoria
        Hot Eight he was with me of his own race while his presence on the other
        dates made these groups automatically "mixed groups". All the negro
        performers knew about it, but the white musicians with whom Sidney worked
        all his life had no idea that he was colored person."

        Simmen comments that he doubts the latter statement is correct, and he
        brings up the Louis Prima quote in evidence. Prima had an evil reputation
        amongst black musicians so it's anyone's guess what the significance of this
        is.



        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • Bob Eagle
        My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent on the
        Message 3 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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          My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent on the state) in which the state was in limbo, until it had reached a satisfactory level of reorganization to merit being readmitted to the Union.

          There then generally followed the carpet bag era when it seems that some white politicians manipulated the black minority vote for their own ends.

          When white voters recovered their power (mainly 1890s), the Jim Crow movement saw its apogee, which I believe is the period when the losses of status reached their maximum levels.

          Bob

          Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
          The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more laissez-faire latin society of the "old" south. The Creoles, who had in some cases enjoyed privileges like owning slaves (but not all) were now lumped together with their former slaves, or at least with people at whom they would have looked down their noses. As in situations of this kind, people reacted differently - thiss is illustrated clearly in Howard's post.

          Jelly Roll Morton is an interesting case, since he stated his family came from the shores of France and was obviously proud of the fact, but he took the course of resorting to all kinds of legitimate and illegitimate activity with a goal of achieving recognition (pimping, winning money as a card shark, playing in a bordello, but towards the end of his life trying to underline his role as a pivotal figure in the history of jazz and swing, making the then-existing distinction here).

          While the Creoles made many contributions to jazz, we should not overlook the role of other musicians: Buddy Bolden was not a Creole and is part of a "lowdown and hot school which is contrasted with the more genteel music of John Robichaux, the Tios et al.

          Even in the 1910s and 1920s, musicians seem to have overlooked differences if it suited them: there the known examples of Achil(l)e Baquet and Dave Perkins. Baquet seems to have reacted by ultimately denying his African ancestors although I have an e-mail from the late Frank Powers in which he says George Brunis told him all the musicians knew he was black. "Apparently Achille was very handsome and when the Creole girls would call out his name while strolling by the cabaret where he played, Achille would pretend not to hear them much to the mirth of his fellow musicians" (personal communication from F. Powers, 5 October 1995).

          The difference to the 1930s and why Benny Goodman gets the credit for racial integration is that in the first three decades of the 20th century bands hid the fact that musicians were Afro-Americans: Jelly Roll Morton was apparently able to record with the NORK by posing as a "Mexican" and Bill Moore of whose geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on his recordings with the California Ramblers.

          Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a remark by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is frequently categorised as "white".

          This wouldn't be important were it not for the fact that any trace of African blood had led to people being segregated. In my own country we had another example of this more recently with even more devastating results, so maybe I should don a tin helmet too.


          Michael Rader

          _______________________________________________________________
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          kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192





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        • Howard Rye
          on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@web.de wrote: Bill Moore of whose ... He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was
          Message 4 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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            on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

            Bill Moore of whose
            > geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on his
            > recordings with the California Ramblers.
            >
            He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was from
            Ohio, his mother from Louisiana. The Louisiana connection surprised me,
            though his mother's birth name does not suggest a Creole origin.

            He is a very successful case of "passing" musically as well as socially. I
            wonder when the rumor of this first appeared in print. Anyone know?

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Howard Rye
            ... Yet another ruddy typo - really the 1920 census! Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk Tel/FAX: +44 20
            Message 5 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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              on 5/5/06 16:35, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

              > on 5/5/06 8:45, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
              >
              > Bill Moore of whose
              >> geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the "Hot Hawaian" on
              >> his
              >> recordings with the California Ramblers.
              >>
              > He and his family appear in the 1910 census as mulattos. His father was from
              > Ohio, his mother from Louisiana. The Louisiana connection surprised me,
              > though his mother's birth name does not suggest a Creole origin.
              >
              > He is a very successful case of "passing" musically as well as socially. I
              > wonder when the rumor of this first appeared in print. Anyone know?

              Yet another ruddy typo - really the 1920 census!

              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • Prof_Hi_Jinx
              Oops - people should read period (Tired and emotional). Bob ... From: Bob Eagle To: Sent:
              Message 6 of 6 , May 5, 2006
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                Oops - "people" should read "period"

                (Tired and emotional).

                Bob

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bob Eagle" <prof_hi_jinx@...>
                To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:50 PM
                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Creoles (in the census)


                My understanding is that the civil war was only the first domino in the
                chain. After Emancipation, there was a people (of varying length dependent
                on the state) in which the state was in limbo, until it had reached a
                satisfactory level of reorganization to merit being readmitted to the Union.

                There then generally followed the carpet bag era when it seems that some
                white politicians manipulated the black minority vote for their own ends.

                When white voters recovered their power (mainly 1890s), the Jim Crow
                movement saw its apogee, which I believe is the period when the losses of
                status reached their maximum levels.

                Bob

                Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                The loss of status of the Creoles was a direct result of the civil war and
                the imposition of the more rigid Anglo-Saxon society in place of the more
                laissez-faire latin society of the "old" south. The Creoles, who had in some
                cases enjoyed privileges like owning slaves (but not all) were now lumped
                together with their former slaves, or at least with people at whom they
                would have looked down their noses. As in situations of this kind, people
                reacted differently - thiss is illustrated clearly in Howard's post.

                Jelly Roll Morton is an interesting case, since he stated his family came
                from the shores of France and was obviously proud of the fact, but he took
                the course of resorting to all kinds of legitimate and illegitimate activity
                with a goal of achieving recognition (pimping, winning money as a card
                shark, playing in a bordello, but towards the end of his life trying to
                underline his role as a pivotal figure in the history of jazz and swing,
                making the then-existing distinction here).

                While the Creoles made many contributions to jazz, we should not overlook
                the role of other musicians: Buddy Bolden was not a Creole and is part of a
                "lowdown and hot school which is contrasted with the more genteel music of
                John Robichaux, the Tios et al.

                Even in the 1910s and 1920s, musicians seem to have overlooked differences
                if it suited them: there the known examples of Achil(l)e Baquet and Dave
                Perkins. Baquet seems to have reacted by ultimately denying his African
                ancestors although I have an e-mail from the late Frank Powers in which he
                says George Brunis told him all the musicians knew he was black. "Apparently
                Achille was very handsome and when the Creole girls would call out his name
                while strolling by the cabaret where he played, Achille would pretend not to
                hear them much to the mirth of his fellow musicians" (personal communication
                from F. Powers, 5 October 1995).

                The difference to the 1930s and why Benny Goodman gets the credit for racial
                integration is that in the first three decades of the 20th century bands hid
                the fact that musicians were Afro-Americans: Jelly Roll Morton was
                apparently able to record with the NORK by posing as a "Mexican" and Bill
                Moore of whose geographical origins I know nothing, was described as the
                "Hot Hawaian" on his recordings with the California Ramblers.

                Incidentally, do we know for sure that Arodin was a Creole? There is a
                remark by George Brunis on a Louis Prima record, but even today he is
                frequently categorised as "white".

                This wouldn't be important were it not for the fact that any trace of
                African blood had led to people being segregated. In my own country we had
                another example of this more recently with even more devastating results, so
                maybe I should don a tin helmet too.


                Michael Rader

                _______________________________________________________________
                SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
                kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192





                Yahoo! Groups Links










                ---------------------------------
                On Yahoo!7
                Answers: Real people ask and answer questions on any topic.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                Yahoo! Groups Links
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