RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Did Whiteman Steal from Oliver?
- ' New Orleans was the stomping grounds for all the greatest pianists in the
country. We had coloured, we had white, we had Frenchmen, we had Americans,
we had them from all parts of the world ---'
' Jazz music came from New Orleans and New Orleans was inhabited with maybe
every race on the face of the globe and, of course, plenty from French
origin --- Then we had a lot of Spanish people there.'
Jelly Roll Morton ' Mister Jelly Roll'
I enjoyed the erudite posts from both Howard and Albert but warn against
bringing a political agenda to Jazz history.
If we agree, as I believe, that the origins of Jazz are in N.O. then we must
accept all evidence of its multi-racial and multi-cultural origins. To the
groups noted by Morton we can also add Haitian, Cuban, Martiniquen and other
The reason that New Orleans produced Jazz was this very meeting and mixing
of such diverse racial, musical, cultural and social elements.
The black/white debate does not really run in N.O. because it ignores the
presence of the large mulatto --Creole-- population which, it could be
argued, was the most important element in the development of Jazz. The
majority of the first generation of players, and many of the greatest
figures in our music, were Creoles.
Under French & Spanish rule, Creoles had a distinct and independent society
with many privileges, including the owning of slaves, not allowed the
'blacks' they regarded as inferior. Can these really be termed '
Afro-Americans' ? I suggest that their culture and aesthetic was far more
European --specifically French & Spanish---than African.
Stealing ? The prime example of 'copying' must be Goodman's riding of the
Henderson charts to fame and riches. Was this stealing ? Henderson was paid
and even, in hard times, put on Goodman's payroll. No, it was not stealing.
Honest exploitation is the most that can be claimed. But then, Henderson had
first knock, he recorded them first and --arguably -- better but the
economic power was white and 1930s America was never going to have black
superstars. I don't think Goodman, nor those that followed, can be held
Howard. I think none of us match your vast library, could you just give us,
at least, a clue on the Blesh/Bix ?
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> Maybe you are right but I wonder how Oliver could listen to Whiteman,Everybody bought Paul Whiteman records.
> I mean , was he allowed to enter a record store that is dedicated to
> noncolored artists music and buy records ? Or maybe he entered one of
> Whiteman's gigs ? Is it possible ?