Re: Did Whiteman Steal from Oliver?
- It is your privilege to avoid further discussion of the subject.
My final point: you are unable to offer examples of white musicians
stealing from black musicians; nevertheless, in every one of your
previous posts in this thread you insist that white musicians were
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
> Albert, I think that if we pursue our disagreements as to what
> theft, plagiarism etc., we will drive everybody else mad, and
> the moderators to issue a fatwa against us. I find myself
> you from both directions because I don't agree that stealing ideas
> necessarily involves an intention to deceive. We have both stated our
> positions. Let's leave it at that. Ethical disagreements are way off
> I have avoided providing specific examples because I have already
> and this is the third time) conceded that I can't in fact think of
> can think of examples from later eras. But I have made all these points
> I still can't find Cab Calloway's article which I know I have
> I find it or when I have time to look for any of Dave Peyton's
pieces in the
> Defender (which requires getting microfilm out and searching through
> will post any specific examples they may give (with full credit of
> for you to shoot down.
> on 2/5/06 23:12, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
> > Your definition of stealing/plagiarism is too restrictive. When we
> > deal with the theft of a material object, the financial benefit to the
> > thief is immediate or, alternatively, near in time once the object is
> > disposed of. In the case of music/literature, there is a time delay
> > between the moment the concept/idea is stolen/plagiarized and the time
> > that financial benefits are accrued, if at all: there is really no
> > certainty that financial gain will ensue.
> > Regardless, it seems to me that the question of financial gain
> > following theft/plagiarism is of minor importance. There is an
> > essential ethical component that has nothing to do with and
> > supersedes, in my opinion- legalities/copyright/court/financial gain
> > issues. Theft/plagiarism in music/literature is the appropriation of
> > an idea, concept, style, text without giving credit to the author and
> > passing it for one's own. Theft/plagiarism are very different from
> > influence. There is an intention to deceive in stealing ideas, but not
> > in being influenced by a style of music. Certainly, the music of the
> > black musicians influenced (or at least inspired) white musicians -and
> > vice versa.
> > You avoided answering my specific question of examples of
> > plagiarism/theft on the part of white musicians by making the proviso
> > that theft requires financial gain and asserting that that was enough
> > to define theft as opposed to influence.
> > I ask you to examine theft/plagiarism as an ethical concept. Do you
> > still maintain that white musicians stole the music of the black
> > musicians? Another point: You failed to address the other issue that
> > I raised, namely, that white musicians were financially successful by
> > playing dance music, not jazz. That is, in part, why I asked for
> > specific examples of what it is that you claim the white musicians
> > stole from the black musicians. Did they steal/plagiarized the actual
> > jazz numbers created by the black musicians and then play them in
> > ballrooms (for high fees)? If so, give me specific examples. Or, as I
> > maintain, white dance bandleaders were influenced by the style of the
> > black (and white) jazz musicians and adapted some of what they heard
> > to their dance numbers. In fact, they also hired jazz musicians for
> > their dance bands. That, in my book, is not stealing/plagiarizing, but
> > simply trying to make a living by playing music that appealed to the
> > audience of the time.
> > Albert
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
> Maybe you are right but I wonder how Oliver could listen to Whiteman,Everybody bought Paul Whiteman records.
> I mean , was he allowed to enter a record store that is dedicated to
> noncolored artists music and buy records ? Or maybe he entered one of
> Whiteman's gigs ? Is it possible ?