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Re: Did Whiteman Steal from Oliver?

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  • Albert Haim
    It is your privilege to avoid further discussion of the subject. My final point: you are unable to offer examples of white musicians stealing from black
    Message 1 of 44 , May 2, 2006
      It is your privilege to avoid further discussion of the subject.

      My final point: you are unable to offer examples of white musicians
      stealing from black musicians; nevertheless, in every one of your
      previous posts in this thread you insist that white musicians were
      thieves!!!

      Albert



      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
      >
      > Albert, I think that if we pursue our disagreements as to what
      constitutes
      > theft, plagiarism etc., we will drive everybody else mad, and
      probably lead
      > the moderators to issue a fatwa against us. I find myself
      disagreeing with
      > you from both directions because I don't agree that stealing ideas
      > necessarily involves an intention to deceive. We have both stated our
      > positions. Let's leave it at that. Ethical disagreements are way off
      topic.
      >
      > I have avoided providing specific examples because I have already
      (twice now
      > and this is the third time) conceded that I can't in fact think of
      any! I
      > can think of examples from later eras. But I have made all these points
      > already.
      >
      > I still can't find Cab Calloway's article which I know I have
      somewhere. If
      > I find it or when I have time to look for any of Dave Peyton's
      pieces in the
      > Defender (which requires getting microfilm out and searching through
      it), I
      > will post any specific examples they may give (with full credit of
      course)
      > for you to shoot down.
      >
      > on 2/5/06 23:12, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
      >
      > > Your definition of stealing/plagiarism is too restrictive. When we
      > > deal with the theft of a material object, the financial benefit to the
      > > thief is immediate or, alternatively, near in time once the object is
      > > disposed of. In the case of music/literature, there is a time delay
      > > between the moment the concept/idea is stolen/plagiarized and the time
      > > that financial benefits are accrued, if at all: there is really no
      > > certainty that financial gain will ensue.
      > >
      > > Regardless, it seems to me that the question of financial gain
      > > following theft/plagiarism is of minor importance. There is an
      > > essential ethical component that has nothing to do with ┬ľand
      > > supersedes, in my opinion- legalities/copyright/court/financial gain
      > > issues. Theft/plagiarism in music/literature is the appropriation of
      > > an idea, concept, style, text without giving credit to the author and
      > > passing it for one's own. Theft/plagiarism are very different from
      > > influence. There is an intention to deceive in stealing ideas, but not
      > > in being influenced by a style of music. Certainly, the music of the
      > > black musicians influenced (or at least inspired) white musicians -and
      > > vice versa.
      > >
      > > You avoided answering my specific question of examples of
      > > plagiarism/theft on the part of white musicians by making the proviso
      > > that theft requires financial gain and asserting that that was enough
      > > to define theft as opposed to influence.
      > >
      > > I ask you to examine theft/plagiarism as an ethical concept. Do you
      > > still maintain that white musicians stole the music of the black
      > > musicians? Another point: You failed to address the other issue that
      > > I raised, namely, that white musicians were financially successful by
      > > playing dance music, not jazz. That is, in part, why I asked for
      > > specific examples of what it is that you claim the white musicians
      > > stole from the black musicians. Did they steal/plagiarized the actual
      > > jazz numbers created by the black musicians and then play them in
      > > ballrooms (for high fees)? If so, give me specific examples. Or, as I
      > > maintain, white dance bandleaders were influenced by the style of the
      > > black (and white) jazz musicians and adapted some of what they heard
      > > to their dance numbers. In fact, they also hired jazz musicians for
      > > their dance bands. That, in my book, is not stealing/plagiarizing, but
      > > simply trying to make a living by playing music that appealed to the
      > > audience of the time.
      > >
      > > Albert
      > >
      >
      >
      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > howard@...
      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      >
    • Andrew Homzy
      ... Everybody bought Paul Whiteman records. A.
      Message 44 of 44 , Jun 2, 2006
        > Maybe you are right but I wonder how Oliver could listen to Whiteman,
        > I mean , was he allowed to enter a record store that is dedicated to
        > noncolored artists music and buy records ? Or maybe he entered one of
        > Whiteman's gigs ? Is it possible ?
        > tommersl

        Everybody bought Paul Whiteman records.

        A.
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