Re: Did Whiteman Steal form Oliver?
The post by HR is the most enlighten I read about the subject.
I want to share incident that has IMO to do with the subject :
Theres a Jazz festival in my country next month, and it is mostly
about bands doing 1920's music, especially I'm interested as one of
the bands is doing a Bechet tribute claimed in the very old style.
I'm tiring with that story because the following incident : someone
posted a link on one of the local forums to the information about the
above mentioned festival, and one guy posted a reply that it's a waste
of time because it's an old music and not something that process
developement and modernization. The guy claimed he is a Jazz musician.
I followed a link from his profile to hear the music he is doing, and
I must say it's Pop/Rock music not a single doubt I have about it.
My conclusion is that Wynton Marsalis is one of those that are
stopping the Rock music from fooling Rock musicians making them think
they are playing Jazz music , and by doing so I believe he is saving
Jazz from a certain and quick death.
--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
> on 2/5/06 2:52, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:
> > It is
> > part of the Ken Burns/Wynton Marsalis and company effort to change
> > history to suit their political agendas.
> Many white Americans seem to find it impossible to accept, but
> African-Americans are just as entitled to celebrate the uniqueness
> culture independently of the influences on it, as I am to celebrate my
> English culture in full awareness that it has evolved from the
> of German, French and Celtic elements, and heaven knows what else
> and in distinction to a wider concept of a British or European
> That this is controversial in the case of African-Americans is doubtless
> part of the legacy of slavery and in my opinion Wynton Marsalis
> highest praise for using the position he has carved for himself to
> as hard as he can. He could so easily have opted for a quiet life and
> accepted the comfortable view of whites and blacks beavering together to
> create this music - that isn't really a "whites only" notice you see
> you. Some early European writers thought this was what was
> they actually met some white jazz musicians and got a rude awakening.
> African-Americans are in a truly unique position, denied full
> in the wider society, but attacked if they celebrate the differences
> deny them access.
> Those of us, white or black, who value African-American jazz for its
> African-American-ness are perfectly entitled to do so, and those who
> hear the difference or don't value it are quite entitled to their
> as well. Unfortunately, they tend not to see it that way, and resort to
> insults of which "political correctness" is one of the milder ones.
> why I'm 100% for Wynton!
> You should gather from this that I do completely agree with you that
> Miff Mole, Red Nichols, the Dorsey Brothers, Joe Venuti and Eddie
> Lang, Bix Beiderbecke, Frankie Trumbauer (I have dropped the
> this list) had a creative output distinct from that of the black
> You and Richard Sudhalter are just as entitled to celebrate that as
> Marsalis and I are to celebrate the African-American tradition.
> If Wynton is changing history to suit his political agenda I don't
> words would be appropriate to describe Sudhalter's agenda, but they
> just as inappropriate. I cannot see the use of trading insults in
> Hopefully a greater understanding of American vernacular music as a
> will emerge from this dialectic.
> It would actually be very interesting to know exactly what the many
> African-American musicians who thought that whites were stealing
> thought was being stolen. They rarely say and on recorded evidence it is
> difficult to hear more than the faintest echo of the hard-swinging blues
> based music of 20s black Chicago in the contemporary white output.
> Reflecting on the issue I think a much better case can be made for a
> in this direction (on the recorded evidence) in the period after
> music of Goodman and Herman, and the Chicagoans, is explicitly based on
> black models, unlike that of the musicians mentioned two paragraphs
> there are far fewer complaints. I guess this reflects the beginnings
> breakdown in segregation, at least in some places, but I call it a guess
> because it is. Especially as an even better case can be made for
> the rhythm-and-blues to rock-and-roll period.
> Though it is to a great extent a work of fiction (possibly the best jazz
> novel ever written), Ralph Berton's Remembering Bix provides a
> alternative insight from someone who was an insider to white jazz in the
> 20s. Berton clearly believed to a much greater extent than I think the
> recorded evidence justifies that the white jazz of the 20s was
> black models, though he would clearly be the last person to claim
> mates were just copyists.
> By the way, please let us leave Bix out of this discussion. Genius is
> genius. We can argue for ever about whether he really has anything to do
> with the African-American jazz tradition in the "King Oliver to whoever"
> sense, and about just what influences on him came from where, but it is
> worth remembering that no conclusion (joke!) on this point would
> bearing whatever on his actual artistic merit!
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
> Maybe you are right but I wonder how Oliver could listen to Whiteman,Everybody bought Paul Whiteman records.
> I mean , was he allowed to enter a record store that is dedicated to
> noncolored artists music and buy records ? Or maybe he entered one of
> Whiteman's gigs ? Is it possible ?