Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

"Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the National Registry

Expand Messages
  • Albert Haim
    The Library of Congress has announced the 50 recordings chosen this year for inclusion in the National Recording Registry. One of them is Singin the Blues
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 12, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      The Library of Congress has announced the 50 recordings chosen this
      year for inclusion in the "National Recording Registry." One of them
      is "Singin' the Blues" , the Feb 4, 1927 seminal recording by the
      Frank Trumbauer orchestra with Bix.

      Here is the write-up for "Singi' the Blues" in the announcement. Not
      very inspiring and/or well-written.

      "Singin' the Blues," Frankie Trumbauer and his Orchestra with Bix
      Beiderbecke (1927)

      "Saxophonist Frankie Trumbauer and cornetist Bix Beiderbecke created
      some of the most significant jazz recordings of the 1920s, works still
      noted for their beauty and influence on fellow musicians. Traumbauer
      [sic] and Beiderbecke had worked together in the orchestras of Jean
      Goldkette, Adrian Rollini and Paul Whiteman. For a brief [not brief!!
      ed.] period in 1927, Trumbauer had his own recording contract with
      Okeh Records. Together with guitarist Eddie Lang and other members of
      the ensemble, Trumbauer and Beiderbecke recorded "Singin' the blues,"
      which contains one of Beiderbecke's greatest solos."


      To see the complete list of recordings in the 2005 Registry, go to
      http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/nrpb/nrpb-2005reg.html

      Albert
    • Jeffrey Jastram
      Albert: Please explain the significance of this event. I have two of the records, if it was originally issued on OKEH 40772-B? Jeff ... From: Albert Haim To:
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 12, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Albert:

        Please explain the significance of this event. I have two of the records,
        if it was originally issued on OKEH 40772-B?

        Jeff


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Albert Haim
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 4/12/2006 2:14:50 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the National
        Registry


        The Library of Congress has announced the 50 recordings chosen this
        year for inclusion in the "National Recording Registry." One of them
        is "Singin' the Blues" , the Feb 4, 1927 seminal recording by the
        Frank Trumbauer orchestra with Bix.

        Here is the write-up for "Singi' the Blues" in the announcement. Not
        very inspiring and/or well-written.

        "Singin' the Blues," Frankie Trumbauer and his Orchestra with Bix
        Beiderbecke (1927)

        "Saxophonist Frankie Trumbauer and cornetist Bix Beiderbecke created
        some of the most significant jazz recordings of the 1920s, works still
        noted for their beauty and influence on fellow musicians. Traumbauer
        [sic] and Beiderbecke had worked together in the orchestras of Jean
        Goldkette, Adrian Rollini and Paul Whiteman. For a brief [not brief!!
        ed.] period in 1927, Trumbauer had his own recording contract with
        Okeh Records. Together with guitarist Eddie Lang and other members of
        the ensemble, Trumbauer and Beiderbecke recorded "Singin' the blues,"
        which contains one of Beiderbecke's greatest solos."


        To see the complete list of recordings in the 2005 Registry, go to
        http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/nrpb/nrpb-2005reg.html

        Albert






        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

        Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Albert Haim
        Jeff, Here is some information. National Recording Preservation Act of 2000 A bill to establish the National Recording Registry in the Library of Congress to
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 12, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Jeff,

          Here is some information.

          National Recording Preservation Act of 2000

          "A bill to establish the National Recording Registry in the Library of
          Congress to maintain and preserve sound recordings and collections of
          sound recordings that are culturally, historically, or aesthetically
          significant, and for other purposes" (Public Law 106-474; H.R.4846)

          Beginning in 2002, 50 recordings were chosen to be included in the
          National Recording Registry. Every year, 50 recordidngs are added. By
          now, there are 200 recordings. You can see the complete list in

          http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/nrpb/nrpb-masterlist.html

          Yes, OKeh 40772-B is one of the recordings added this year. To me this
          is highly significant because of my strong interest in Bix
          Beiderbecke. Any honor or tribute paid to Bix's musicianship is worthy
          of attention, as far as I am concerned.

          Albert
          http://bixbeiderbecke.com




          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey Jastram" <mister_j@...> wrote:
          >
          > Albert:
          >
          > Please explain the significance of this event. I have two of the
          records,
          > if it was originally issued on OKEH 40772-B?
          >
          > Jeff
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Albert Haim
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 4/12/2006 2:14:50 PM
          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the National
          > Registry
          >
          >
          > The Library of Congress has announced the 50 recordings chosen this
          > year for inclusion in the "National Recording Registry." One of them
          > is "Singin' the Blues" , the Feb 4, 1927 seminal recording by the
          > Frank Trumbauer orchestra with Bix.
          >
          > Here is the write-up for "Singi' the Blues" in the announcement. Not
          > very inspiring and/or well-written.
          >
          > "Singin' the Blues," Frankie Trumbauer and his Orchestra with Bix
          > Beiderbecke (1927)
          >
          > "Saxophonist Frankie Trumbauer and cornetist Bix Beiderbecke created
          > some of the most significant jazz recordings of the 1920s, works still
          > noted for their beauty and influence on fellow musicians. Traumbauer
          > [sic] and Beiderbecke had worked together in the orchestras of Jean
          > Goldkette, Adrian Rollini and Paul Whiteman. For a brief [not brief!!
          > ed.] period in 1927, Trumbauer had his own recording contract with
          > Okeh Records. Together with guitarist Eddie Lang and other members of
          > the ensemble, Trumbauer and Beiderbecke recorded "Singin' the blues,"
          > which contains one of Beiderbecke's greatest solos."
          >
          >
          > To see the complete list of recordings in the 2005 Registry, go to
          > http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/nrpb/nrpb-2005reg.html
          >
          > Albert
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
        • David Brown
          Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no man -- except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met again, in my
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no man --
            except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met again, in
            my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
            artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to why Bix
            left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a few,
            rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake but nothing
            else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?

            I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom I also
            rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz for I do not
            discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Albert Haim
            The Bix Influence and Inspiration After the Feb 4, 1927 recording of Singin the Blues was issued, Chauncey Morehouse, the drummer for the Jean Goldkette
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              The Bix Influence and Inspiration

              After the Feb 4, 1927 recording of "Singin' the Blues" was issued,
              Chauncey Morehouse, the drummer for the Jean Goldkette Orchestra, said,

              "You couldn't go anywhere in New York without
              hearing some guy trying to play like Bix. They
              copied his tone, his attack, his figures. Some guys
              tried to take his stuff right off the records.
              Others just came and listened. It was amazing."

              Indeed, many trumpet players emulated Bix from 1927 on: in the US,
              Chelsea Quealey, Mickey Bloom, Bob Mayhew, Sylvester Ahola, Bobby
              Hackett, and many others; overseas, Norman Payne, Max Goldberg,
              Philippe Brun, and others. In fact, several of Bix's solos were copied
              almost note for note in the 1930s: the solo in "Singin' the Blues"
              copied by Rex Stewart (twice) with Fletcher Henderson in 1931; the
              solo in "Sweet Sue" copied by two trumpet players in a radio program
              from 1932 by Jimmy Grier and His Cocoanut Orchestra; the solo in
              "Sweet Sue" copied in 1935 by Swedish trumpeter Sune Lundwalls; the
              solo in "I'm Coming Virginia" copied by Bobby Hackett in the 1938
              Carnegie Hall BG concert.

              However, even before 1927, there were almost note for note copies of
              Bix's solos: the solo in "Jazz Me Blues" copied by Red Nichols with
              George Olsen in 1924; the solo in Copenhagen copied by many trumpeters
              in 1924 and 1925, with the Benson Orchestra of Chicago, the Varsity
              Eight, the California Ramblers, the Oriole Orchestra, etc; the solo in
              "Riverboat Shuffle" (Wolverines version) copied in 1925 by Jack
              Hylton's Kit-Cat Band and by Richard Hitter and His Cabineers; the
              solo in "Tiger Rag" copied in 1925-1927 by the California Ramblers,
              the University Six, the Purple Pirates Orchestra, Devine's Wisconsin
              Roof Orchestra.

              Red Nichols and Jimmy McPartland were under the spell of Bix beginning
              in 1924.

              I have listed above emulations of Bix in the 1920s and 1930s. What
              about a long-lasting influence of Bix? Here, I want to make a
              distinction between influence and inspiration. Clearly, the examples
              above are instances of influence. But there is something more subtle
              which I will refer to as inspiration. Bix was a catalyst for other
              musicians performing at their best. Pee Wee Russell said, "The thing
              about Bix's music is that he drove a band. If you had any talent at
              all he made you play better. It had to do for one thing with the way
              he played lead. It had to do with his whole feeling for ensemble
              playing." This an example of what I call inspiration: Bix inspired his
              fellow musicians to do their best. But inspiration also means that
              musicians thought of Bix after they had played with him, or had
              listened to him –live or in records- during their careers. I hear
              Bix's explicitly in early Goodman, but not in later Goodman. Does this
              mean that Bix's influence ceased: no! Bix continued being an
              inspiration for Benny throughout his life. In the same manner, Bix was
              an inspiration for all the musicians who came into contact with him:
              Hoagy Carmichael, Eddie Condon, the Dorseys, Miff Mole, Bing Crosby,
              Adrian Rollini, Danny Polo, Rex Stewart, Pee Wee Russell, etc.
              Through the musicians he interacted with –and inspired- Bix had a
              long-lasting influence. Jimmy McPartland says it well in an article in
              the January 1954 issue of Down Beat: "I think almost any jazz musician
              –besides all the brass men- have one way or another been influenced by
              Bix." The key phrase is "one way or another."

              Albert




              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no
              man --
              > except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met
              again, in
              > my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
              > artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to why Bix
              > left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a few,
              > rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake but
              nothing
              > else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?
              >
              > I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom I also
              > rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz for
              I do not
              > discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Rich Conaty
              Not only that, but it was heard on South Park last night. Now, that s influential! ... From: Albert Haim To:
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Not only that, but it was heard on "South Park" last night. Now, that's
                influential!

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...>
                To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:03 PM
                Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the National
                Registry


                > The Bix Influence and Inspiration
                >
                > After the Feb 4, 1927 recording of "Singin' the Blues" was issued,
                > Chauncey Morehouse, the drummer for the Jean Goldkette Orchestra, said,
                >
                > "You couldn't go anywhere in New York without
                > hearing some guy trying to play like Bix. They
                > copied his tone, his attack, his figures. Some guys
                > tried to take his stuff right off the records.
                > Others just came and listened. It was amazing."
                >
                > Indeed, many trumpet players emulated Bix from 1927 on: in the US,
                > Chelsea Quealey, Mickey Bloom, Bob Mayhew, Sylvester Ahola, Bobby
                > Hackett, and many others; overseas, Norman Payne, Max Goldberg,
                > Philippe Brun, and others. In fact, several of Bix's solos were copied
                > almost note for note in the 1930s: the solo in "Singin' the Blues"
                > copied by Rex Stewart (twice) with Fletcher Henderson in 1931; the
                > solo in "Sweet Sue" copied by two trumpet players in a radio program
                > from 1932 by Jimmy Grier and His Cocoanut Orchestra; the solo in
                > "Sweet Sue" copied in 1935 by Swedish trumpeter Sune Lundwalls; the
                > solo in "I'm Coming Virginia" copied by Bobby Hackett in the 1938
                > Carnegie Hall BG concert.
                >
                > However, even before 1927, there were almost note for note copies of
                > Bix's solos: the solo in "Jazz Me Blues" copied by Red Nichols with
                > George Olsen in 1924; the solo in Copenhagen copied by many trumpeters
                > in 1924 and 1925, with the Benson Orchestra of Chicago, the Varsity
                > Eight, the California Ramblers, the Oriole Orchestra, etc; the solo in
                > "Riverboat Shuffle" (Wolverines version) copied in 1925 by Jack
                > Hylton's Kit-Cat Band and by Richard Hitter and His Cabineers; the
                > solo in "Tiger Rag" copied in 1925-1927 by the California Ramblers,
                > the University Six, the Purple Pirates Orchestra, Devine's Wisconsin
                > Roof Orchestra.
                >
                > Red Nichols and Jimmy McPartland were under the spell of Bix beginning
                > in 1924.
                >
                > I have listed above emulations of Bix in the 1920s and 1930s. What
                > about a long-lasting influence of Bix? Here, I want to make a
                > distinction between influence and inspiration. Clearly, the examples
                > above are instances of influence. But there is something more subtle
                > which I will refer to as inspiration. Bix was a catalyst for other
                > musicians performing at their best. Pee Wee Russell said, "The thing
                > about Bix's music is that he drove a band. If you had any talent at
                > all he made you play better. It had to do for one thing with the way
                > he played lead. It had to do with his whole feeling for ensemble
                > playing." This an example of what I call inspiration: Bix inspired his
                > fellow musicians to do their best. But inspiration also means that
                > musicians thought of Bix after they had played with him, or had
                > listened to him -live or in records- during their careers. I hear
                > Bix's explicitly in early Goodman, but not in later Goodman. Does this
                > mean that Bix's influence ceased: no! Bix continued being an
                > inspiration for Benny throughout his life. In the same manner, Bix was
                > an inspiration for all the musicians who came into contact with him:
                > Hoagy Carmichael, Eddie Condon, the Dorseys, Miff Mole, Bing Crosby,
                > Adrian Rollini, Danny Polo, Rex Stewart, Pee Wee Russell, etc.
                > Through the musicians he interacted with -and inspired- Bix had a
                > long-lasting influence. Jimmy McPartland says it well in an article in
                > the January 1954 issue of Down Beat: "I think almost any jazz musician
                > -besides all the brass men- have one way or another been influenced by
                > Bix." The key phrase is "one way or another."
                >
                > Albert
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no
                > man --
                >> except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met
                > again, in
                >> my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
                >> artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to why Bix
                >> left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a few,
                >> rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake but
                > nothing
                >> else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?
                >>
                >> I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom I also
                >> rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz for
                > I do not
                >> discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/310 - Release Date: 4/12/2006
                >
                >



                --
                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/310 - Release Date: 4/12/2006
              • RD Blackard
                Hi! I am a new member to this list and have already enjoyed the threads on Louis and Bix. I am a retired pastor who is now working in security at the
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi!
                  I am a new member to this list and have already enjoyed the threads on Louis and Bix. I am a retired pastor who is now working in security at the Mohegan Sun Casino in southeastern Connecticut. Most of what I do is answer questions such as, "How do I find my car?"
                  I have been a fan of big band music all my life. My mother used to say I was weaned on Kay Kyser. I bought my first big band record while trying to local Les Brown's version of In the Mood, which I heard had heard on the radio the day before. That was in 1958. At that time I had no inetrest in Glenn Miller's version. HaHa
                  Through the years, the hot jazz of the 20s and early 30s has worked its way to the top of interests, along with many of the Trad Jazz bands and current Swing Bands out today. I enjoyed hearing what I could of the Big Bad Voodoo Daddies at the free performance area at work the other night. I also have attended a few of the Great Connecticut Traditional Jazz Festivals held now for almost 20 years in mid-summer.
                  It was at one of those festivals that I had that chance to meet, and then hear play and sing, Spiegel Willcox who was somthing like 94 years of age at the time and still played a rather good trombone. Bix fans will know he was the last survivng musician to have worked with Bix, going back to their Goldkette days. There is some great information on Spiegel at redhotazz.com, which I found at about the same time I learned of this list and joined here.
                  With all of this background now out of the way, I will finally come to my question. I could google for the answer, but it is more fun to ask in a group of enthusiasts. :) Who was the trombone player on the classic Bix recording of "Singin' the Blues"? Was it Spiegel, or Bill Rank, or Miff Mole (I doubt Miff), or another?
                  Thanks.
                  Two cents from
                  Bob Blackard



                  David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote: Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no man --
                  except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met again, in
                  my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
                  artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to why Bix
                  left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a few,
                  rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake but nothing
                  else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?

                  I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom I also
                  rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz for I do not
                  discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  SPONSORED LINKS
                  Jazz music

                  ---------------------------------
                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                  Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  ---------------------------------





                  ---------------------------------
                  Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Albert Haim
                  Hello Bob, Most discographies list Bill Rank as the trombonist in the Feb 4, 1927 recording of Singin the Blues by Frank Trumbauer s orchestra with Bix and
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello Bob,

                    Most discographies list Bill Rank as the trombonist in the Feb 4, 1927
                    recording of "Singin' the Blues" by Frank Trumbauer's orchestra with
                    Bix and Eddie Lang. Bill Rank, in fact, played in all Okeh recordings
                    by Bix and Tram except "Singin' the Blues."

                    Here is the evidence.

                    There were two trombone players in the Goldkette band -Spiegle Willcox
                    and Bill Rank, sweet and hot respectively. Clearly, Bill Rank was the
                    trombonist of choice for a small jazz group (Bix and Tram) within the
                    bigger Goldkette band. We do not know why Rank was replaced by Mole in
                    "Singin' the Blues." However, the evidence is conclusive.

                    In the July 1939 issue of "Rhythm", R. G. V. Venables reports that he
                    received a letter from Frank Trumbauer in which Tram states that "Miff
                    Mole replaced Billy Rank on "Singin' the Blues." In the Melody Maker,
                    April 21st 1934, there is an interview of Bill Rank by Warren P.
                    Scholl. Rank says that he played in all Bix and Tram small group
                    recordings except on Singin' The Blues.

                    Albert

                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, RD Blackard <rdblackard@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi!
                    > I am a new member to this list and have already enjoyed the
                    threads on Louis and Bix. I am a retired pastor who is now working
                    in security at the Mohegan Sun Casino in southeastern Connecticut.
                    Most of what I do is answer questions such as, "How do I find my car?"
                    > I have been a fan of big band music all my life. My mother
                    used to say I was weaned on Kay Kyser. I bought my first big band
                    record while trying to local Les Brown's version of In the Mood,
                    which I heard had heard on the radio the day before. That was in
                    1958. At that time I had no inetrest in Glenn Miller's version. HaHa
                    > Through the years, the hot jazz of the 20s and early 30s has
                    worked its way to the top of interests, along with many of the Trad
                    Jazz bands and current Swing Bands out today. I enjoyed hearing what
                    I could of the Big Bad Voodoo Daddies at the free performance area at
                    work the other night. I also have attended a few of the Great
                    Connecticut Traditional Jazz Festivals held now for almost 20 years
                    in mid-summer.
                    > It was at one of those festivals that I had that chance to
                    meet, and then hear play and sing, Spiegel Willcox who was somthing
                    like 94 years of age at the time and still played a rather good
                    trombone. Bix fans will know he was the last survivng musician to
                    have worked with Bix, going back to their Goldkette days. There is
                    some great information on Spiegel at redhotazz.com, which I found at
                    about the same time I learned of this list and joined here.
                    > With all of this background now out of the way, I will finally
                    come to my question. I could google for the answer, but it is more
                    fun to ask in a group of enthusiasts. :) Who was the trombone
                    player on the classic Bix recording of "Singin' the Blues"? Was it
                    Spiegel, or Bill Rank, or Miff Mole (I doubt Miff), or another?
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    Two cents from
                    >
                    Bob Blackard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote: Albert. Many thanks
                    for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no man --
                    > except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met
                    again, in
                    > my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
                    > artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to
                    why Bix
                    > left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a
                    few,
                    > rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake
                    but nothing
                    > else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?
                    >
                    > I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom
                    I also
                    > rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz
                    for I do not
                    > discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > Jazz music

                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
                    Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Ron L'Herault
                    Welcome to the group, Bob. I too met Spiegel both at New Black Eagle gigs in Northboro, MA and at the CT festival in Moodus. I brought a copy of one of his
                    Message 9 of 30 , Apr 13, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Welcome to the group, Bob.

                      I too met Spiegel both at New Black Eagle gigs in Northboro, MA and at
                      the CT festival in Moodus. I brought a copy of one of his first, if not
                      the first recording he did on Victor with the Collegians, "That Red Head
                      Gal". I asked him to autograph the disk for me and then he asked if the
                      record was one of the Goldkettes. When I showed him, he said that they
                      did not make too many of those and then proceeded to sing the lyrics to
                      the tune and tell me a bit about recording in front of the horn (yes it
                      is an acoustically recorded disk). Sadly, he passed not too long after
                      that.

                      Ron L

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of RD Blackard
                      Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 1:28 PM
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the
                      National Registry

                      Hi!
                      I am a new member to this list and have <snip>
                      It was at one of those festivals that I had that chance to meet,
                      and then hear play and sing, Spiegel Willcox who was somthing like 94
                      years of age at the time and still played a rather good trombone.
                      <snip>
                    • David Brown
                      Thanks Albert for masterly analysis of Bix influence. I do not doubt at all his immediate impact on contemporary ----although almost exclusively hite
                      Message 10 of 30 , Apr 14, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Albert for masterly analysis of Bix influence. I do not doubt at all
                        his immediate impact on contemporary ----although almost exclusively
                        hite ---trumpeters/cornettists. However, I observe that all the names you
                        list -- except one -- were minor players. Hackett, though a major stylist,
                        only became so when he moved away from early Bix emulation, absorbed his
                        Louis influence and was able to become one of the great trumpet/cornet
                        originals.

                        Louis, however, was font for ALL subsequent major trumpeters and so rich was
                        the vein he opened that they were able to build styles and careers on only
                        certain facets of his treasure. Giants like Allen, Clayton, Eldridge,
                        Newton, Coleman and all those slightly lesser swing players Stark, Jordan,
                        Williams, Stewart, Thomas, Butterfield, Kaminsky and so many more. Muggsy
                        and Wingie had styles which used only a tiny part of Louis' vocabulary but
                        are nevertheless wonderful players. Louis also influenced musicians on all
                        other instruments, all singing and all jazz arrranging.

                        I have not yet mentioned the 3rd greatest trumpeter in jazz. Berigan was
                        white but even his style is from Louis not Bix.

                        Yes, there are the obvious disciples, McPartland & Nichols, and I infer that
                        you too discount the Nichols coincident and independent claim ? McPartland
                        was a nice player and lovely man but never did other than acknowledge his
                        debt to Bix. The fact that Nichols did not, does make him somewhat less
                        admirable.

                        There is however one other major trumpeter ---apart from Hackett -- who I
                        feel absorbed and shows Bix influence, a great hero of mine, Wild Bill
                        Davison. Anybody else out there hear it ?

                        Oh, I also raise the wonderful but wayward Sterling Bose as always
                        containing Bixian elements.


                        Dave





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Albert Haim
                        Nice post, Dave. Excellent, concise account of influences on several trumpet players. I don t know how I could have forgotten Sterling (or Stirling according
                        Message 11 of 30 , Apr 14, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Nice post, Dave. Excellent, concise account of influences on several
                          trumpet players.

                          I don't know how I could have forgotten Sterling (or Stirling
                          according to Sudhalter) Bose. At one time, his obligatos (all
                          different) in three takes of "Just Imagine" by Jean Goldkette were
                          thought to be Bix's. Also, his 1925 sides with the Arcadian Serenaders
                          display an uncanny Bix sound. Bix and Stirling were roomates for a
                          while in St. Louis. A very knowledgeable Italian Bixophile is
                          convinced that a couple of the 1925 sides by the Arcadian Serenaders
                          -"Angry" and "The Co-Ed"- have, in fact, Bix doing the solos, not
                          Stirling.

                          Yes, Wild Bill Davison. His solo in the 1928 recording of "Smilin'
                          Skies" with Benny Meroff was also thought to be by Bix at one time. I
                          hear Bix in "Smilin Skies" but not in later Davison.

                          One piece of useless information. "Smilin' Skies" and the reverse, "Me
                          and the Man in the Moon," include George Von Physter on bass. This is
                          the only recording ever made by Physter. Later he became a famous
                          lithographist. Often his subjects were jazz. He had two lithographs in
                          the 1938 issue of Life (the one about Swing) -Jam Session and Destiny,
                          the latter somehow related to Bix- and several in Down Beat. You can
                          see some of the lithographs in
                          https://www.nyhistory.org/music/music16.html

                          Albert




                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks Albert for masterly analysis of Bix influence. I do not doubt
                          at all
                          > his immediate impact on contemporary ----although almost exclusively
                          > hite ---trumpeters/cornettists. However, I observe that all the
                          names you
                          > list -- except one -- were minor players. Hackett, though a major
                          stylist,
                          > only became so when he moved away from early Bix emulation,
                          absorbed his
                          > Louis influence and was able to become one of the great trumpet/cornet
                          > originals.
                          >
                          > Louis, however, was font for ALL subsequent major trumpeters and so
                          rich was
                          > the vein he opened that they were able to build styles and careers
                          on only
                          > certain facets of his treasure. Giants like Allen, Clayton, Eldridge,
                          > Newton, Coleman and all those slightly lesser swing players Stark,
                          Jordan,
                          > Williams, Stewart, Thomas, Butterfield, Kaminsky and so many more.
                          Muggsy
                          > and Wingie had styles which used only a tiny part of Louis'
                          vocabulary but
                          > are nevertheless wonderful players. Louis also influenced musicians
                          on all
                          > other instruments, all singing and all jazz arrranging.
                          >
                          > I have not yet mentioned the 3rd greatest trumpeter in jazz. Berigan was
                          > white but even his style is from Louis not Bix.
                          >
                          > Yes, there are the obvious disciples, McPartland & Nichols, and I
                          infer that
                          > you too discount the Nichols coincident and independent claim ?
                          McPartland
                          > was a nice player and lovely man but never did other than
                          acknowledge his
                          > debt to Bix. The fact that Nichols did not, does make him somewhat less
                          > admirable.
                          >
                          > There is however one other major trumpeter ---apart from Hackett --
                          who I
                          > feel absorbed and shows Bix influence, a great hero of mine, Wild Bill
                          > Davison. Anybody else out there hear it ?
                          >
                          > Oh, I also raise the wonderful but wayward Sterling Bose as always
                          > containing Bixian elements.
                          >
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • jaykay_4444
                          Here s some theorizing about influence and inspiration that, to me at least, makes sense. Armstrong s influence is undeniable, but Beiderbecke s (as David
                          Message 12 of 30 , Apr 14, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Here's some theorizing about influence and inspiration that, to me
                            at least, makes sense. Armstrong's influence is undeniable, but
                            Beiderbecke's (as David Brown points out) is surprisingly limited.
                            I believe this may be related to the length of time each was a
                            prominent player on the jazz scene. The music was changing rapidly
                            and radically from, let us say, 1925-1935. There was relatively
                            little documented tradition, so that musicians who lived the music
                            would be drawn to the leading players of the day. Bix's day was
                            very brief, so that as the music continued to evolve, he was not
                            part of its evolution. Based on what we know about him, this would
                            not have been the case had he lived. But he was gone, frozen into a
                            short time period as the music moved on. This, of course, was not
                            the case with Armstrong, regardless of what you think of his playing
                            from the early 30s onward. It is difficult for me to imagine a horn
                            player (including Bix himself) continuing in the style of the 1924-
                            1928 Beiderbecke and hoping to earn a living as the music
                            developed. McPartland did not continue to play in the manner of Bix
                            for very long; the other contemporaries were essentially dance band
                            musicians whose professional longevity was not remarkable, to say
                            the least. Had Bix lived longer he might have continued to lead by
                            example. Without his presence, the stylistic innovations were
                            furnished by others.

                            Just a note about Berigan and Davison - two great jazz players. The
                            conventional thinking is that if a trumpet/cornet became active in
                            the late 20s-early 30s and did not play like Beiderbecke (as those
                            two surely did not) he must have been influenced by Armstrong
                            because.....because who else was there? I believe Bunny and Wild
                            Bill to be original stylists of the first rank, neither being an
                            easy match with any of his predecessors (and neither, for reasons to
                            be saved for another time, a prime influence on those who followed).

                            By the way.....speaking of original stylists.....who influenced Bix?











                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Nice post, Dave. Excellent, concise account of influences on
                            several
                            > trumpet players.
                            >
                            > I don't know how I could have forgotten Sterling (or Stirling
                            > according to Sudhalter) Bose. At one time, his obligatos (all
                            > different) in three takes of "Just Imagine" by Jean Goldkette were
                            > thought to be Bix's. Also, his 1925 sides with the Arcadian
                            Serenaders
                            > display an uncanny Bix sound. Bix and Stirling were roomates for a
                            > while in St. Louis. A very knowledgeable Italian Bixophile is
                            > convinced that a couple of the 1925 sides by the Arcadian
                            Serenaders
                            > -"Angry" and "The Co-Ed"- have, in fact, Bix doing the solos, not
                            > Stirling.
                            >
                            > Yes, Wild Bill Davison. His solo in the 1928 recording of "Smilin'
                            > Skies" with Benny Meroff was also thought to be by Bix at one
                            time. I
                            > hear Bix in "Smilin Skies" but not in later Davison.
                            >
                            > One piece of useless information. "Smilin' Skies" and the
                            reverse, "Me
                            > and the Man in the Moon," include George Von Physter on bass. This
                            is
                            > the only recording ever made by Physter. Later he became a famous
                            > lithographist. Often his subjects were jazz. He had two
                            lithographs in
                            > the 1938 issue of Life (the one about Swing) -Jam Session and
                            Destiny,
                            > the latter somehow related to Bix- and several in Down Beat. You
                            can
                            > see some of the lithographs in
                            > https://www.nyhistory.org/music/music16.html
                            >
                            > Albert
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks Albert for masterly analysis of Bix influence. I do not
                            doubt
                            > at all
                            > > his immediate impact on contemporary ----although almost
                            exclusively
                            > > hite ---trumpeters/cornettists. However, I observe that all the
                            > names you
                            > > list -- except one -- were minor players. Hackett, though a
                            major
                            > stylist,
                            > > only became so when he moved away from early Bix emulation,
                            > absorbed his
                            > > Louis influence and was able to become one of the great
                            trumpet/cornet
                            > > originals.
                            > >
                            > > Louis, however, was font for ALL subsequent major trumpeters and
                            so
                            > rich was
                            > > the vein he opened that they were able to build styles and
                            careers
                            > on only
                            > > certain facets of his treasure. Giants like Allen, Clayton,
                            Eldridge,
                            > > Newton, Coleman and all those slightly lesser swing players
                            Stark,
                            > Jordan,
                            > > Williams, Stewart, Thomas, Butterfield, Kaminsky and so many
                            more.
                            > Muggsy
                            > > and Wingie had styles which used only a tiny part of Louis'
                            > vocabulary but
                            > > are nevertheless wonderful players. Louis also influenced
                            musicians
                            > on all
                            > > other instruments, all singing and all jazz arrranging.
                            > >
                            > > I have not yet mentioned the 3rd greatest trumpeter in jazz.
                            Berigan was
                            > > white but even his style is from Louis not Bix.
                            > >
                            > > Yes, there are the obvious disciples, McPartland & Nichols, and I
                            > infer that
                            > > you too discount the Nichols coincident and independent claim ?
                            > McPartland
                            > > was a nice player and lovely man but never did other than
                            > acknowledge his
                            > > debt to Bix. The fact that Nichols did not, does make him
                            somewhat less
                            > > admirable.
                            > >
                            > > There is however one other major trumpeter ---apart from
                            Hackett --
                            > who I
                            > > feel absorbed and shows Bix influence, a great hero of mine,
                            Wild Bill
                            > > Davison. Anybody else out there hear it ?
                            > >
                            > > Oh, I also raise the wonderful but wayward Sterling Bose as
                            always
                            > > containing Bixian elements.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dave
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • David Brown
                            Albert. Yes. Yes. Bose moved away from Bix and developed into a unique and original stylist. I especially cite the two takes on Goodman s 1936 St Louis Blues
                            Message 13 of 30 , Apr 14, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Albert. Yes. Yes. Bose moved away from Bix and developed into a unique and
                              original stylist. I especially cite the two takes on Goodman's 1936 'St
                              Louis Blues' to prove how far he left Bix and how good he was.

                              Never for a moment have I heard Bix on the Arcadians but these are
                              historically extremely interesting sides. Less than a year separates the two
                              sessions but the band sounds very different. The Wingy tracks are N.O. and
                              very 'black' and really stomp. Much of this must be down to Wingy's lead but
                              the whole band in the 1925 tracks with Bose's Bix in the lead are very
                              Bixian in sound --and this was a N.O. band --and indicates just how
                              influential Bix 'style' was, albeit briefly.

                              These sides also highlight the distinct and different rhythmic vocabularies
                              of Bix from Louis and all earlier N.O. style. Bose nowhere can provide the
                              drive -- 'swing' if you like -- of Wingy -- the Bose band skips but does not
                              stomp.

                              I sat in front of the bell of Bill Davison's horn as much as possible in
                              later years --- often --- I also sat in front of McPartland's and
                              Hackett's -- but I would say Bill was the nearest sound to Bix I ever heard.
                              Those flairs, declamations and constant dynamic variations were Bix not
                              Louis. Also his minimal but profound ballad playing owed more to Bix than
                              Louis although he also synthesised Louis, especially his rhythmic drive,
                              into his style. Much though was Bill himself and I agree fully he was a ---
                              now neglected I fear -- giant of Jazz.

                              Jaykay. Yes and No. I've already agreed that Bill was a great original
                              stylist and previously claimed Berigan as 3rd greatest jazz trumpeter and
                              would not be able to do so if I did not consider him as great original
                              stylist, however, his starting point was Louis not Bix. McPartland was
                              always very close to Bix but, except maybe initially, never a slave. I can
                              also cite here Goodman sides, the 1928 ' Boys', to show what a fine and
                              original player he could be.

                              I think we agree that, in the mid 20s, Bix's influence -- albeit on a
                              somwhat different constituency -- was as powerful as Louis'. However, Bix's
                              influence was briefer than his own life and I don't think his lack of
                              longevity is a reason, Parker was dead at 35, Clifford at 25. So we still
                              face the conundrum of his lack of continuing 'immediate' --if you like
                              Albert --influence. I posit two ideas. One is the different rhythmic
                              concept of Bix and Louis. Louis was the foundation for 'swing', a music of
                              great rhythmic vitality which was what the people wanted. Bix was
                              rhymically much less overt and did not 'swing' in that sense. Also Louis
                              was an obvious grandstanding virtuoso, a style much more likely to appeal
                              to young ambitious musicians, especially young black musicians, for most of
                              the great innovators were black and unlikely to wish to emulate a white
                              stylist.

                              Dave








                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Albert Haim
                              Dave, Here is another hypothesis, inspired in part by what you wrote, that I bring up in a continuation of our efforts to understand why many trumpet players
                              Message 14 of 30 , Apr 15, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dave,
                                Here is another hypothesis, inspired in part by what you wrote, that I
                                bring up in a continuation of our efforts to understand why many
                                trumpet players followed Louis, but few –if any- followed Bix, except
                                during a brief period on the 1920s.

                                Armstrong was the jazz trumpeter par excellence: his technique was
                                spectacular, his sense of swing was unsurpassed, his improvisations
                                imaginative. These were the characteristics of Louis's style admired
                                by trumpeters, and they led them to follow in Armstrong's path. In
                                contrast, Bix was a composer. His cornet was a conduit for his
                                powerful musical creativity and inventiveness. Not that his technique
                                was mediocre: on the contrary, Bix's technique was excellent. Randy
                                Sandke writes in "Bix Beiderbecke: Observing A Genius At Work," "Bix's
                                precise articulation is on display throughout "Clarinet Marmalade."
                                For an untutored cornetist his execution is remarkably clean in the
                                following passage. [there is an example here] It features some very
                                fast single tonguing which would still give a lot of jazz trumpeters
                                trouble, and no amount of alternate fingering can account for."

                                What did trumpeters and other musicians admired in Bix's playing?
                                Certainly, his tone, his intimate manner of playing. "Like a girl
                                saying yes," said Eddie Condon. But mostly they admired his advanced
                                compositional skills, his melodic, harmonic, and structural
                                improvisations. George Johnson said, "Bix was a fountain of ideas that
                                were spontaneous, as unexpected to himself as they were to us." Jimmie
                                McPartland said, "Bix contributed a lot to jazz. I think he helped
                                bring it polish. He made it more musical."

                                If we accept the notion of Bix as a composer, then we can see that it
                                becomes very difficult for a trumpeter to follow in Bix's lead,
                                because most trumpeters are into the technical aspects of trumpetering
                                (if I am allowed to cast the word), not so much into the compositional
                                aspects. Several of the musicians mentioned in this thread tried to
                                emulate Bix's tone, his introspective manner of playing; but they were
                                unable to produce solos with Bix's creativity. I propose that for
                                trumpeters to follow Bix, they had to be composers above all. And most
                                were not. Hence, there is no Bix legacy among trumpeters.

                                I go back to my initial assertion. Bix was a powerful inspiration to
                                most musicians who came into contact with him, and even to those who
                                just heard him on records. The following comes from an interview of
                                Ruby Braff by Jim Goldbolt. "JG: We haven't mentioned Bix Beiderbecke.
                                RB: A genius. Y'know, Miles Davis was a great admirer of Bix. He would
                                seek out people who knew him and asked questions about him. You can
                                hear a lot of Bix in Miles. JG: I've never heard that opinion before.
                                RB: You ask me questions and you'll find out a lot, believe me."

                                Albert


                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Albert. Yes. Yes. Bose moved away from Bix and developed into a
                                unique and
                                > original stylist. I especially cite the two takes on Goodman's 1936 'St
                                > Louis Blues' to prove how far he left Bix and how good he was.
                                >
                                > Never for a moment have I heard Bix on the Arcadians but these are
                                > historically extremely interesting sides. Less than a year separates
                                the two
                                > sessions but the band sounds very different. The Wingy tracks are
                                N.O. and
                                > very 'black' and really stomp. Much of this must be down to Wingy's
                                lead but
                                > the whole band in the 1925 tracks with Bose's Bix in the lead are very
                                > Bixian in sound --and this was a N.O. band --and indicates just how
                                > influential Bix 'style' was, albeit briefly.
                                >
                                > These sides also highlight the distinct and different rhythmic
                                vocabularies
                                > of Bix from Louis and all earlier N.O. style. Bose nowhere can
                                provide the
                                > drive -- 'swing' if you like -- of Wingy -- the Bose band skips but
                                does not
                                > stomp.
                                >
                                > I sat in front of the bell of Bill Davison's horn as much as possible in
                                > later years --- often --- I also sat in front of McPartland's and
                                > Hackett's -- but I would say Bill was the nearest sound to Bix I
                                ever heard.
                                > Those flairs, declamations and constant dynamic variations were Bix not
                                > Louis. Also his minimal but profound ballad playing owed more to Bix
                                than
                                > Louis although he also synthesised Louis, especially his rhythmic drive,
                                > into his style. Much though was Bill himself and I agree fully he
                                was a ---
                                > now neglected I fear -- giant of Jazz.
                                >
                                > Jaykay. Yes and No. I've already agreed that Bill was a great original
                                > stylist and previously claimed Berigan as 3rd greatest jazz
                                trumpeter and
                                > would not be able to do so if I did not consider him as great original
                                > stylist, however, his starting point was Louis not Bix. McPartland was
                                > always very close to Bix but, except maybe initially, never a slave.
                                I can
                                > also cite here Goodman sides, the 1928 ' Boys', to show what a fine and
                                > original player he could be.
                                >
                                > I think we agree that, in the mid 20s, Bix's influence -- albeit on a
                                > somwhat different constituency -- was as powerful as Louis'.
                                However, Bix's
                                > influence was briefer than his own life and I don't think his lack of
                                > longevity is a reason, Parker was dead at 35, Clifford at 25. So we
                                still
                                > face the conundrum of his lack of continuing 'immediate' --if you like
                                > Albert --influence. I posit two ideas. One is the different rhythmic
                                > concept of Bix and Louis. Louis was the foundation for 'swing', a
                                music of
                                > great rhythmic vitality which was what the people wanted. Bix was
                                > rhymically much less overt and did not 'swing' in that sense. Also
                                Louis
                                > was an obvious grandstanding virtuoso, a style much more likely to
                                appeal
                                > to young ambitious musicians, especially young black musicians, for
                                most of
                                > the great innovators were black and unlikely to wish to emulate a white
                                > stylist.
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • JOSEPH MURPHY
                                I ve always been of the opinion that Frank Trumbauer really influenced Bix starting in 1925 when they worked together at the Arcadia Ballroom in St. Louis. If
                                Message 15 of 30 , Apr 15, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I've always been of the opinion that Frank Trumbauer really influenced Bix starting in 1925 when they worked together at the Arcadia Ballroom in St. Louis. If you listen to Bix's earlier recordings, such as with the Wolverines, he seems to lack the melodic style that made him the greatest horn player by far in my humble opinion. I think that his cornet playing closely matches Frank's c melody sax style. I remember a TV program (or possibly it was an ad for an album) where Louis Armstrong made the statement "All of us horn players tried to sound like Bix, but none of us could match him" or words to that effect. I used to do a little singing when I was young, back in the late forties, and I sang with a few older piano players who claimed that they used to sit in with Bix and Tram at the Arcadia. That was a big thrill for me to sing with guys who knew them. In fact my mother-in-law surprised me when she told me that she used to dance with them. She said that the musicians in those days used to come down from the bandstand from time to time and dance with the girls. Just a bit of trivia for you. JM---- Original Message -----
                                  From: David Brown<mailto:johnhaleysims@...>
                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com<mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:07 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" in the National Registry


                                  Albert. Many thanks for as ever enlightening post. Now I bow to no man --
                                  except maybe your good self -- in my admiration of Bix but I met again, in
                                  my espousal of Louis --alongside whom I would definitely place Bix as
                                  artist --as the greatest figure of our music, the question as to why Bix
                                  left so little influence on the history of the music. There were a few,
                                  rather desultory 'little Bix' cornettists in his immediate wake but nothing
                                  else . Or can you find a continuing stream of influence ?

                                  I think it maybe possible to cite Tram --a lesser player but whom I also
                                  rate very highly --as a greater influence on the course of jazz for I do not
                                  discount at all the admiration expressed for him by Pres.







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  SPONSORED LINKS Jazz music<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Jazz+music&w1=Jazz+music&c=1&s=16&.sig=qMm2dscETY4hPruiUIir6A>


                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                                  a.. Visit your group "RedHotJazz<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RedHotJazz>" on the web.

                                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<mailto:RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • pdqblues
                                  From the last several months that I ve been honored to me a member of this Yahoo Group, the amount of thoughtful and intellectual conversation about the music
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Apr 15, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    From the last several months that I've been honored to me a member of
                                    this Yahoo Group, the amount of thoughtful and intellectual
                                    conversation about the music I love has never ceased to amaze me.
                                    Like Robert Bamberger's "Hot Jazz Saturday Night" program on WAMU from
                                    his very first show that I by chance happen to hear about 25 years
                                    ago, all of you are to be applauded for brining Jazz to a wonderful
                                    intelligent level, worthy of further exploration and discussions.

                                    Many of you seem very well educated in the history and/or musical
                                    styles of Jazz. I have not such background or experience. What I
                                    know of Jazz comes primarily from what I've listened to (mostly CDs
                                    and LPs, but some shellac). Nonetheless, I would like to offer my
                                    humble if less authoritative opinion about Bix Beiderbecke.

                                    No doubt that Louis Armstrong made a longer, deeper influence on Jazz
                                    and for that matter, on American Culture as it related to the
                                    acceptance and embracement of black equality (something that the U.S.
                                    still falls far too short). Louis came out of the New Orleans Jazz
                                    scene to help introduce this style to the rest of the U.S. (starting
                                    with King Oliver's Band). Louis's genius was shown through his
                                    ability to take his own New Orleans musical traditions and change them
                                    to suit his needs and the musical appeal of a fickle American public.
                                    Louis became the first black jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, and defined
                                    what that role meant for others years after his greatest popularity
                                    had waned. Louis's musical style is dramatically different in 1929
                                    than it was in 1923. And it continued to change as the musical
                                    culture changed.

                                    Although I have great respect for Bix and his musical style, I also
                                    believe that his influence and greatest contributions to Jazz was more
                                    subtle and behind-the-scenes than it was for Louis.

                                    Bix came from an entirely different culture and tradition. Unlike
                                    Louis, whose musical style was embraced by blacks and initially
                                    resisted by whites, Bix had to face an entirely different situation.
                                    Bix faced an intolerable, often hostile environment to play the Jazz
                                    music he loved. And that hostility came mostly from his own cultural
                                    traditions. Yes, the ODJB, a group of white musician who influenced
                                    so many of the early white Jazz musicians including Bix, did introduce
                                    Jazz to a wider and whiter population, but I suspect that most middle
                                    class white Americans still viewed Jazz as a musical style for lower
                                    class blacks. While there were many ODJB-like white bands that
                                    followed (including Bix's own Wolverines), what I believe Bix did was
                                    to become the first white Jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, thereby laying
                                    the groundwork for many others to follow very closely on Bix's
                                    footsteps (Red Nichols, his early style most definitely containing
                                    many Bix-like qualities, being one of them). Considering the
                                    rejection Bix must have faced from his own traditions and culture (I
                                    recall Bix's family was totally against his chosen profession, for
                                    example), Bix's laying the path for other white jazz musicians should
                                    be considered a major influence in itself. But I also think he
                                    continued to influence musicians, including Louis himself.

                                    Bix's style was greatly influenced by Frank Trumbauer, I think there
                                    is no question about that. Both realized that they could contribute
                                    to one another far greater than separately. Bix's musical
                                    contributions should not exclude Tram. They worked synergistically.
                                    And both flourished musically and most dramatically together.

                                    I believe Bix's less stature in the Halls of Jazz (so to speak) came
                                    not from his short lifespan, but rather from his own perceived
                                    personal flaws as seen by the time he died. He was an alcoholic
                                    during a time when 1. Booze was illegal if not openly flaunted at
                                    authorities, and 2. A time when alcoholism was viewed as a personal
                                    problem rather than a health issue that needed to be treated. Bix
                                    achieved his life-long ambition to be seated in Paul Whiteman's
                                    orchestra to gain that acceptance that he so longed for. But rather
                                    than celebrate his success, Bix probably saw that his situation was
                                    really unchanged. In fact, it may have been made worse by the playing
                                    constrictions required to play in Whiteman's band and that his style
                                    of Jazz was still viewed with less acceptance by white Americans.
                                    It's little surprise that Bix's alcoholism caught up with him during
                                    this time. Despite the support he got from Whiteman himself, Bix's
                                    playing was greatly damaged by his alcoholism to the point that
                                    Whiteman ask Andy Secrest to copy Bix's style for the band, and
                                    eventually let Bix go out of the band in hopes of a recovery and
                                    return, neither of which fully happened.

                                    I do believe that had Bix recovered from his alcoholism and lived, he
                                    would have been able to adapt to the rapidly changing musical styles
                                    during the early 1930s and would have done very well in the Big
                                    Band/Swing era. It's easy to play these 'what if" games, but I base
                                    my opinion on the last few recordings Bix made, which shows that his
                                    style was adapting to the Depression Era audience (e.g., "I'll Be A
                                    Friend With Pleasure"). But Bix did die young, and did die from his
                                    alcoholism. And despite his contributions to music and to fellow
                                    musicians, Bix still died at a time when Jazz music was still
                                    considered a black musical style and not full embraced by white U.S.
                                    culture. And worse, he died when alcoholism was considered a
                                    character flaw.

                                    And that is why I believe, in my humble opinion, that Bix, for the
                                    most part, is remembered with fondness primarily by those of us who
                                    enjoy listening to the Traditional Jazz recordings while Louis is
                                    remembered by a broader audience (including those who may never have
                                    heard his 1920s recordings). Although I have neither the education
                                    nor the musical knowledge/experience to confirm my opinions here,
                                    nonetheless I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my
                                    thoughts with you.
                                  • Mordechai Litzman
                                    Enjoyed reading all the posts about Bix (my favorite solo is on Tiger Rag with the Wolverines), but here is a different question relating to the National
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Apr 15, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Enjoyed reading all the posts about Bix (my favorite solo is on Tiger Rag with the Wolverines), but here is a different question relating to the National Registry and Library of Congress:
                                      A couple of years ago I read an article in Stereophile magazine about a visit to the Library of Congress record archives. Apparently they have a huge collection of records, some items with several duplicates, and you can go there and request that they play records of your choice for you. Does anybody know if they have available rare old jazz recordings and cylinders that have not been re-issued?

                                      pdqblues <PDQBlues@...> wrote:
                                      From the last several months that I've been honored to me a member of
                                      this Yahoo Group, the amount of thoughtful and intellectual
                                      conversation about the music I love has never ceased to amaze me.
                                      Like Robert Bamberger's "Hot Jazz Saturday Night" program on WAMU from
                                      his very first show that I by chance happen to hear about 25 years
                                      ago, all of you are to be applauded for brining Jazz to a wonderful
                                      intelligent level, worthy of further exploration and discussions.

                                      Many of you seem very well educated in the history and/or musical
                                      styles of Jazz. I have not such background or experience. What I
                                      know of Jazz comes primarily from what I've listened to (mostly CDs
                                      and LPs, but some shellac). Nonetheless, I would like to offer my
                                      humble if less authoritative opinion about Bix Beiderbecke.

                                      No doubt that Louis Armstrong made a longer, deeper influence on Jazz
                                      and for that matter, on American Culture as it related to the
                                      acceptance and embracement of black equality (something that the U.S.
                                      still falls far too short). Louis came out of the New Orleans Jazz
                                      scene to help introduce this style to the rest of the U.S. (starting
                                      with King Oliver's Band). Louis's genius was shown through his
                                      ability to take his own New Orleans musical traditions and change them
                                      to suit his needs and the musical appeal of a fickle American public.
                                      Louis became the first black jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, and defined
                                      what that role meant for others years after his greatest popularity
                                      had waned. Louis's musical style is dramatically different in 1929
                                      than it was in 1923. And it continued to change as the musical
                                      culture changed.

                                      Although I have great respect for Bix and his musical style, I also
                                      believe that his influence and greatest contributions to Jazz was more
                                      subtle and behind-the-scenes than it was for Louis.

                                      Bix came from an entirely different culture and tradition. Unlike
                                      Louis, whose musical style was embraced by blacks and initially
                                      resisted by whites, Bix had to face an entirely different situation.
                                      Bix faced an intolerable, often hostile environment to play the Jazz
                                      music he loved. And that hostility came mostly from his own cultural
                                      traditions. Yes, the ODJB, a group of white musician who influenced
                                      so many of the early white Jazz musicians including Bix, did introduce
                                      Jazz to a wider and whiter population, but I suspect that most middle
                                      class white Americans still viewed Jazz as a musical style for lower
                                      class blacks. While there were many ODJB-like white bands that
                                      followed (including Bix's own Wolverines), what I believe Bix did was
                                      to become the first white Jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, thereby laying
                                      the groundwork for many others to follow very closely on Bix's
                                      footsteps (Red Nichols, his early style most definitely containing
                                      many Bix-like qualities, being one of them). Considering the
                                      rejection Bix must have faced from his own traditions and culture (I
                                      recall Bix's family was totally against his chosen profession, for
                                      example), Bix's laying the path for other white jazz musicians should
                                      be considered a major influence in itself. But I also think he
                                      continued to influence musicians, including Louis himself.

                                      Bix's style was greatly influenced by Frank Trumbauer, I think there
                                      is no question about that. Both realized that they could contribute
                                      to one another far greater than separately. Bix's musical
                                      contributions should not exclude Tram. They worked synergistically.
                                      And both flourished musically and most dramatically together.

                                      I believe Bix's less stature in the Halls of Jazz (so to speak) came
                                      not from his short lifespan, but rather from his own perceived
                                      personal flaws as seen by the time he died. He was an alcoholic
                                      during a time when 1. Booze was illegal if not openly flaunted at
                                      authorities, and 2. A time when alcoholism was viewed as a personal
                                      problem rather than a health issue that needed to be treated. Bix
                                      achieved his life-long ambition to be seated in Paul Whiteman's
                                      orchestra to gain that acceptance that he so longed for. But rather
                                      than celebrate his success, Bix probably saw that his situation was
                                      really unchanged. In fact, it may have been made worse by the playing
                                      constrictions required to play in Whiteman's band and that his style
                                      of Jazz was still viewed with less acceptance by white Americans.
                                      It's little surprise that Bix's alcoholism caught up with him during
                                      this time. Despite the support he got from Whiteman himself, Bix's
                                      playing was greatly damaged by his alcoholism to the point that
                                      Whiteman ask Andy Secrest to copy Bix's style for the band, and
                                      eventually let Bix go out of the band in hopes of a recovery and
                                      return, neither of which fully happened.

                                      I do believe that had Bix recovered from his alcoholism and lived, he
                                      would have been able to adapt to the rapidly changing musical styles
                                      during the early 1930s and would have done very well in the Big
                                      Band/Swing era. It's easy to play these 'what if" games, but I base
                                      my opinion on the last few recordings Bix made, which shows that his
                                      style was adapting to the Depression Era audience (e.g., "I'll Be A
                                      Friend With Pleasure"). But Bix did die young, and did die from his
                                      alcoholism. And despite his contributions to music and to fellow
                                      musicians, Bix still died at a time when Jazz music was still
                                      considered a black musical style and not full embraced by white U.S.
                                      culture. And worse, he died when alcoholism was considered a
                                      character flaw.

                                      And that is why I believe, in my humble opinion, that Bix, for the
                                      most part, is remembered with fondness primarily by those of us who
                                      enjoy listening to the Traditional Jazz recordings while Louis is
                                      remembered by a broader audience (including those who may never have
                                      heard his 1920s recordings). Although I have neither the education
                                      nor the musical knowledge/experience to confirm my opinions here,
                                      nonetheless I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my
                                      thoughts with you.







                                      ---------------------------------
                                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                                      Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

                                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                      ---------------------------------





                                      ---------------------------------
                                      Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Brown
                                      Albert Many thanks for a profound exposition. Yes, yes, Bix did embrace a wider musical and intellectual world than Louis and here we maybe have the nub. Louis
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Albert

                                        Many thanks for a profound exposition. Yes, yes, Bix did embrace a wider
                                        musical and intellectual world than Louis and here we maybe have the nub.
                                        Louis is a product of a specifically jazz milieu, New Orleans, and however
                                        original and revolutionary, his roots are in the preceding music of Joe
                                        Oliver and others. Bix had no such roots, quite the opposite, and I suggest
                                        his aesthetic was not especially a ' jazz ' one. Jazz was the 'pop' music of
                                        the day and so this was the vehicle he was in a way forced to ride.

                                        I argue that, notwithstanding all his other innovations and qualities, it
                                        was above all in his rhythmic innovations that Louis was so influential. Bix
                                        offered no such rhythmic felicities and IF he can ever be said to 'fail' as
                                        a jazz musician it is here.

                                        As I said yesterday, the future development of Jazz, both as art and 'pop'
                                        was to lie in the rhythmic developments of Louis which became 'swing'.
                                        Compositional introspection was not showbiz neither soon was to be the
                                        pretentious crossover music of Whiteman which Bix admired.

                                        Yes, Louis' was a very 'trumpeterly' ( to cast myself) style but, as I have
                                        argued recently, not only influenced trumpeters , for the reasons you
                                        mentioned, but also all singing, jazz & pop, and all jazz players on all
                                        instruments and all jazz and popular arranging and composition, all 20th
                                        century popular music in fact.

                                        I think we can only wonder that almost simultaneously,a minor vernacular
                                        art, could produce from two such totally antithetical environments and
                                        aesthetics two such creative giants offering two such antithetical visions.

                                        I do not know the Braff Godbolt, where is it ? Braff --a player I also love
                                        and sat often in front of -- was sometimes somewhat provocative, to say the
                                        least. However, even from his first moments he is Louis with no trace of Bix
                                        but maybe a dash of Berigan and Hackett. The Miles quote is interesting for
                                        I would argue that Miles offers the only post-Louis trumpet style but I
                                        would suggest that the white 'cool' trumpet style of Chet and a few others
                                        is nearer --to the aesthetic anyway --of Bix.

                                        Joseph

                                        I think it generally accepted that Bix & Tram were mutually influential as
                                        I'm sure Albert could expand. Also the Tram influence on Jazz saxophone
                                        playing is for another thread and more time than I have Easter Sunday--and a
                                        happy one to all that celebrate.

                                        Dave




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Albert Haim
                                        The url for the center is http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/ According to the information given in the website, The collection includes over 500,000 LPs; 450,000
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The url for the center is
                                          http://www.loc.gov/rr/record/
                                          According to the information given in the website,

                                          "The collection includes over 500,000 LPs; 450,000 78-rpm discs; over
                                          500,000 unpublished discs; 200,000 compact discs; 175,000 tape reels;
                                          150,000 45-rpm discs; and 75,000 cassettes. Among the unusual formats
                                          in the collection are wires, instantaneous discs, cylinders, music box
                                          discs, rolls, bands, dictabelts, and Memovox discs.

                                          The Collection includes most musical genres with particular strength
                                          in opera, chamber music, folk, jazz, musical theater, popular, and
                                          classical."

                                          They certainly have 78 records (and probably cylinders) that have not
                                          been reissued. Click on the link "Recorded Sound Catalog (SONIC)" and
                                          search for records of interest to you.

                                          Albert

                                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Enjoyed reading all the posts about Bix (my favorite solo is on
                                          Tiger Rag with the Wolverines), but here is a different question
                                          relating to the National Registry and Library of Congress:
                                          > A couple of years ago I read an article in Stereophile magazine
                                          about a visit to the Library of Congress record archives. Apparently
                                          they have a huge collection of records, some items with several
                                          duplicates, and you can go there and request that they play records of
                                          your choice for you. Does anybody know if they have available rare old
                                          jazz recordings and cylinders that have not been re-issued?
                                          >
                                          > pdqblues <PDQBlues@...> wrote:
                                          > From the last several months that I've been honored to me a member of
                                          > this Yahoo Group, the amount of thoughtful and intellectual
                                          > conversation about the music I love has never ceased to amaze me.
                                          > Like Robert Bamberger's "Hot Jazz Saturday Night" program on WAMU from
                                          > his very first show that I by chance happen to hear about 25 years
                                          > ago, all of you are to be applauded for brining Jazz to a wonderful
                                          > intelligent level, worthy of further exploration and discussions.
                                          >
                                          > Many of you seem very well educated in the history and/or musical
                                          > styles of Jazz. I have not such background or experience. What I
                                          > know of Jazz comes primarily from what I've listened to (mostly CDs
                                          > and LPs, but some shellac). Nonetheless, I would like to offer my
                                          > humble if less authoritative opinion about Bix Beiderbecke.
                                          >
                                          > No doubt that Louis Armstrong made a longer, deeper influence on Jazz
                                          > and for that matter, on American Culture as it related to the
                                          > acceptance and embracement of black equality (something that the U.S.
                                          > still falls far too short). Louis came out of the New Orleans Jazz
                                          > scene to help introduce this style to the rest of the U.S. (starting
                                          > with King Oliver's Band). Louis's genius was shown through his
                                          > ability to take his own New Orleans musical traditions and change them
                                          > to suit his needs and the musical appeal of a fickle American public.
                                          > Louis became the first black jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, and defined
                                          > what that role meant for others years after his greatest popularity
                                          > had waned. Louis's musical style is dramatically different in 1929
                                          > than it was in 1923. And it continued to change as the musical
                                          > culture changed.
                                          >
                                          > Although I have great respect for Bix and his musical style, I also
                                          > believe that his influence and greatest contributions to Jazz was more
                                          > subtle and behind-the-scenes than it was for Louis.
                                          >
                                          > Bix came from an entirely different culture and tradition. Unlike
                                          > Louis, whose musical style was embraced by blacks and initially
                                          > resisted by whites, Bix had to face an entirely different situation.
                                          > Bix faced an intolerable, often hostile environment to play the Jazz
                                          > music he loved. And that hostility came mostly from his own cultural
                                          > traditions. Yes, the ODJB, a group of white musician who influenced
                                          > so many of the early white Jazz musicians including Bix, did introduce
                                          > Jazz to a wider and whiter population, but I suspect that most middle
                                          > class white Americans still viewed Jazz as a musical style for lower
                                          > class blacks. While there were many ODJB-like white bands that
                                          > followed (including Bix's own Wolverines), what I believe Bix did was
                                          > to become the first white Jazz trumpet/cornet soloist, thereby laying
                                          > the groundwork for many others to follow very closely on Bix's
                                          > footsteps (Red Nichols, his early style most definitely containing
                                          > many Bix-like qualities, being one of them). Considering the
                                          > rejection Bix must have faced from his own traditions and culture (I
                                          > recall Bix's family was totally against his chosen profession, for
                                          > example), Bix's laying the path for other white jazz musicians should
                                          > be considered a major influence in itself. But I also think he
                                          > continued to influence musicians, including Louis himself.
                                          >
                                          > Bix's style was greatly influenced by Frank Trumbauer, I think there
                                          > is no question about that. Both realized that they could contribute
                                          > to one another far greater than separately. Bix's musical
                                          > contributions should not exclude Tram. They worked synergistically.
                                          > And both flourished musically and most dramatically together.
                                          >
                                          > I believe Bix's less stature in the Halls of Jazz (so to speak) came
                                          > not from his short lifespan, but rather from his own perceived
                                          > personal flaws as seen by the time he died. He was an alcoholic
                                          > during a time when 1. Booze was illegal if not openly flaunted at
                                          > authorities, and 2. A time when alcoholism was viewed as a personal
                                          > problem rather than a health issue that needed to be treated. Bix
                                          > achieved his life-long ambition to be seated in Paul Whiteman's
                                          > orchestra to gain that acceptance that he so longed for. But rather
                                          > than celebrate his success, Bix probably saw that his situation was
                                          > really unchanged. In fact, it may have been made worse by the playing
                                          > constrictions required to play in Whiteman's band and that his style
                                          > of Jazz was still viewed with less acceptance by white Americans.
                                          > It's little surprise that Bix's alcoholism caught up with him during
                                          > this time. Despite the support he got from Whiteman himself, Bix's
                                          > playing was greatly damaged by his alcoholism to the point that
                                          > Whiteman ask Andy Secrest to copy Bix's style for the band, and
                                          > eventually let Bix go out of the band in hopes of a recovery and
                                          > return, neither of which fully happened.
                                          >
                                          > I do believe that had Bix recovered from his alcoholism and lived, he
                                          > would have been able to adapt to the rapidly changing musical styles
                                          > during the early 1930s and would have done very well in the Big
                                          > Band/Swing era. It's easy to play these 'what if" games, but I base
                                          > my opinion on the last few recordings Bix made, which shows that his
                                          > style was adapting to the Depression Era audience (e.g., "I'll Be A
                                          > Friend With Pleasure"). But Bix did die young, and did die from his
                                          > alcoholism. And despite his contributions to music and to fellow
                                          > musicians, Bix still died at a time when Jazz music was still
                                          > considered a black musical style and not full embraced by white U.S.
                                          > culture. And worse, he died when alcoholism was considered a
                                          > character flaw.
                                          >
                                          > And that is why I believe, in my humble opinion, that Bix, for the
                                          > most part, is remembered with fondness primarily by those of us who
                                          > enjoy listening to the Traditional Jazz recordings while Louis is
                                          > remembered by a broader audience (including those who may never have
                                          > heard his 1920s recordings). Although I have neither the education
                                          > nor the musical knowledge/experience to confirm my opinions here,
                                          > nonetheless I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my
                                          > thoughts with you.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                          Service.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
                                          30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Albert Haim
                                          ... Considering the rejection Bix must have faced from his own traditions and culture (I recall Bix s family was totally against his chosen profession, for
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "pdqblues" <PDQBlues@...> wrote:

                                            "Considering the rejection Bix must have faced from his own traditions
                                            and culture (I recall Bix's family was totally against his chosen
                                            profession, for example) ..."

                                            PDQblues,

                                            You make several interesting points. However, there a couple of items
                                            that I must take issue with. You seem to propagate some of the myths
                                            associated with Bix. I call your attention, and that of the other
                                            members of the list, to a series of articles entitled "In A Myth" by
                                            Tom Pletcher. The url is http://bixbeiderbecke.com/pletcher.html Here
                                            I want to address one of the myths that you have touched upon.

                                            Bix and His Family.

                                            We know that Bix went home on several occasions (1929, 1930, 1931),
                                            when he was in need of rest and recuperation from excessive alcohol
                                            consumption.

                                            However, these are not the only times that Bix went home and spent
                                            time with his family. Bix went home on the occasion of his brother
                                            Burnie's wedding in November 1926 (Bix was best man). During the first
                                            three weeks of July 1928, Paul Whiteman's orchestra was in Chicago.
                                            The band played in the Chicago, Uptown, and Tivoli Theatres. Early in
                                            July, Bix recorded with Trumbauer's orchestra and with His Gang.
                                            Actually, Burnie was present during the July 7 recording session. At
                                            the end of the engagements, Whiteman gave his men a three-week
                                            vacation. Bix headed home immediately and spent the entire vacation in
                                            Davenport. Does that sound like a son having strained relations with
                                            his family? Burnie visits Bix in Chicago, Bix spends all of his
                                            vacation (three whole weeks, for goodness sake!) at home.

                                            Much has been made in the Bixology literature about the so-called
                                            strained relationships between Bix and his family. What is the origin
                                            of this? It comes from baseless speculation in Ralph Berton's
                                            "Remembering Bix." In spite of detailed research by Phil Evans, there
                                            are no reports of Bix ever having discussed his family with anyone. In
                                            fact, even Berton admits that Bix never told Berton anything about
                                            this aspect of Bix's life. What Berton tells about Bix and his family
                                            is Berton's own invention [like so many other so-called "facts" in his
                                            book].

                                            I want to bring in Bix's own words on the subject of his relationships
                                            with and feelings toward his family. In a letter to his father dated
                                            Nov 1, 1922 Bix wwrites, "It's kind of hard to write a letter of this
                                            kind home because in our happy home I have nothing to write but
                                            stories of good times that I've had and those I'm going to have ... of
                                            all the troubles I can imagine and that are bound to come in time the
                                            trouble I dread worse is the time come when mother and you & all of
                                            course must go and sometimes I feel I'd soon not live to see the time."

                                            Do these words give the image of a son alienated from his parents from
                                            childhood? Wasn't Bix's family always helping Bix whenever he was in
                                            need? Bix borrowed money from his father when he was broke. Bix went
                                            home when in need of recuperation, and he was welcome with open arms.
                                            Perhaps, the most conclusive evidence to support the notion of Bix's
                                            close relationship with his family comes from an interview of Agatha
                                            Beiderbecke, Bix's mother in the April 25, 1928 issue of "The
                                            Davenport Democrat and Leader." Here is what Agatha said: "We can
                                            always tell when Bix's horn comes in," says his mother."We know
                                            everytime Paul Whiteman's orchestra is on the air and Leon knows we'll
                                            be listening in. The air is carried out by the other cornetist but the
                                            sudden perky blare and the unexpected trills-those are the jazz parts
                                            and they are Leon's." This quote shows that the Beiderbecke family
                                            (note that Bix's mother talks about "we"; Bix's brother and sister
                                            were married and no longer lived at home; so "we" must refer to Bix's
                                            mother and father) followed Bix's career closely ("We know everytime
                                            Paul Whiteman's orchestra is on the air and Leon knows we'll be
                                            listening in.") and had a good appreciation of exactly how Bix was
                                            playing with the band. They clearly understood Bix's unique musical
                                            contribution to the Whiteman orchestra: "the sudden perky blare and
                                            the unexpected trills".


                                            I see a supportive family when Bix was in need, I see a family with
                                            close ties. Of course, they were concerned by Bix's inability to
                                            graduate from high school, of course they were worried about Bix's
                                            excessive drinking. I imagine they were not thrilled with Bix's choice
                                            of a professional career as a dance band/jazz musician. But there is a
                                            huge difference between concern and worry on the one hand, and
                                            alienation and conflict on the other.

                                            It is high time that the myth of Bix's parents ostracizing their son
                                            for having gone into the "low life" path of a jazz/dance band musician
                                            be put to rest.

                                            Albert
                                          • David W. Littlefield
                                            The Library of Congress has a huge collection, including duplicates; I don t know whether they ve ever been able to inventory all of it... The head of Recorded
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              The Library of Congress has a huge collection, including duplicates; I
                                              don't know whether they've ever been able to inventory all of it...

                                              The head of Recorded Sound (if that's what they still call it) and at least
                                              one of his staff are very sympathetic to early jazz, and the latter would
                                              be considered an expert.

                                              To listen to records, one must be a verified researcher and make an
                                              appointment in advance to hear specific recordings. One sits at a listening
                                              station with headphones, where one can take notes, but nothing can be
                                              recorded. I don't know any other details, since I only go to LoC to see
                                              written/printed music.

                                              --Sheik
                                              http://americanmusiccaravan.com

                                              At 09:42 PM 04/15/06 -0700, you wrote:

                                              >National Registry and Library of Congress:
                                              > A couple of years ago I read an article in Stereophile magazine about a
                                              >visit to the Library of Congress record archives. Apparently they have a
                                              >huge collection of records, some items with several duplicates, and you can
                                              >go there and request that they play records of your choice for you. Does
                                              >anybody know if they have available rare old jazz recordings and cylinders
                                              >that have not been re-issued?
                                            • pdqblues
                                              ... Hi Albert, Thank you for the information to rectify my misconception that I had (through false or misleading stories I was given) about Bix and his family
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:

                                                > It is high time that the myth of Bix's parents ostracizing their son
                                                > for having gone into the "low life" path of a jazz/dance band musician
                                                > be put to rest.
                                                >
                                                > Albert
                                                >


                                                Hi Albert,

                                                Thank you for the information to rectify my misconception that I had
                                                (through false or misleading stories I was given) about Bix and his
                                                family life. Clearly, from the information you present, Bix's family
                                                life may not have had any more stress and strife than any other
                                                typical American family. And as such, especially since there is no
                                                information to support anything other, I will avoid perpetuating the
                                                myth about Bix's family life.

                                                With that said, I can't help but wonder if the myth of Bix having a
                                                rejected family life was "created" as a result of his alcoholism.
                                                When Bix died, no doubt there were people (musicians and listeners
                                                alike) who held Bix in high esteem. Since alcoholism was at that time
                                                considered a personal problem, his fans may have simply "assumed" Bix
                                                became an alcoholic as a result of an abusive family upbringing.

                                                To a lesser extent, we (at least people here in the U.S.) still
                                                transpose blame and responsibility onto other factors. Although we
                                                now acknowledge alcoholism as a health issue, we look at the
                                                ever-increasing issue of obesity in children and blame McDonalds,
                                                video games and everything else except for the kids themselves.
                                                Sorry, but the obesity equation is simple: you consume more calories
                                                than you burn off, you get fat.

                                                So, I wonder if something similar was happening back when Bix dies.
                                                Bix died from his alcoholism, so he must have had a very bad family
                                                life that made him an alcoholic. The myth perpetuates because those
                                                who love Bix's music may find it easier to blame the alcoholism on his
                                                family, rather than Bix himself.

                                                And gain, thank you for educating someone like me who admits lacking
                                                in the book knowledge of Jazz that most of you who post have.

                                                And Happy Easter.

                                                Best,

                                                Paul
                                              • Ron L'Herault
                                                ISTR reading that after Bix died, it came to light that his family had all the records Bix sent home, in a box, still sealed and unplayed. Maybe this is the
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Apr 16, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  ISTR reading that after Bix died, it came to light that his family had all
                                                  the records Bix sent home, in a box, still sealed and unplayed. Maybe this
                                                  is the source of the idea that his family didn't approve.

                                                  Ron L

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                  Behalf Of pdqblues
                                                  Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:33 PM
                                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: The Myth of Bix's Strained Relationships With His
                                                  Parents

                                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:

                                                  > It is high time that the myth of Bix's parents ostracizing their son
                                                  > for having gone into the "low life" path of a jazz/dance band musician
                                                  > be put to rest.
                                                  >
                                                  > Albert
                                                  >


                                                  Hi Albert,

                                                  Thank you for the information to rectify my misconception that I had
                                                  (through false or misleading stories I was given) about Bix and his
                                                  family life. Clearly, from the information you present, Bix's family
                                                  life may not have had any more stress and strife than any other
                                                  typical American family. And as such, especially since there is no
                                                  information to support anything other, I will avoid perpetuating the
                                                  myth about Bix's family life.

                                                  With that said, I can't help but wonder if the myth of Bix having a
                                                  rejected family life was "created" as a result of his alcoholism.
                                                  When Bix died, no doubt there were people (musicians and listeners
                                                  alike) who held Bix in high esteem. Since alcoholism was at that time
                                                  considered a personal problem, his fans may have simply "assumed" Bix
                                                  became an alcoholic as a result of an abusive family upbringing.

                                                  To a lesser extent, we (at least people here in the U.S.) still
                                                  transpose blame and responsibility onto other factors. Although we
                                                  now acknowledge alcoholism as a health issue, we look at the
                                                  ever-increasing issue of obesity in children and blame McDonalds,
                                                  video games and everything else except for the kids themselves.
                                                  Sorry, but the obesity equation is simple: you consume more calories
                                                  than you burn off, you get fat.

                                                  So, I wonder if something similar was happening back when Bix dies.
                                                  Bix died from his alcoholism, so he must have had a very bad family
                                                  life that made him an alcoholic. The myth perpetuates because those
                                                  who love Bix's music may find it easier to blame the alcoholism on his
                                                  family, rather than Bix himself.

                                                  And gain, thank you for educating someone like me who admits lacking
                                                  in the book knowledge of Jazz that most of you who post have.

                                                  And Happy Easter.

                                                  Best,

                                                  Paul







                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                • skippyfan_1999
                                                  ... had all ... Maybe this ... The unopened boxes of records is one of those stubborn myths that just won t go away. It s romantic, but not accurate, and it s
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Apr 17, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Ron L'Herault" <lherault@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > ISTR reading that after Bix died, it came to light that his family
                                                    had all
                                                    > the records Bix sent home, in a box, still sealed and unplayed.
                                                    Maybe this
                                                    > is the source of the idea that his family didn't approve.
                                                    >
                                                    > Ron L


                                                    The unopened boxes of records is one of those stubborn myths that
                                                    just won't go away. It's romantic, but not accurate, and it's no
                                                    wonder people believe it's true for it's been repeated in
                                                    biographies and documentaries over and over. Phil Evans, in his
                                                    research, discovered through Bix's brother, that Bix didn't send any
                                                    records home.

                                                    It's possible (and this is purely speculation on my part) that Bix
                                                    may have mailed the odd record home ahead of him to his parents'
                                                    just before a visit, (so that he wouldn't have to travel with
                                                    something so fragile). His parents left the package alone to be
                                                    opened by him, not wanting to be nosy, and instead, unintentionally
                                                    hurt his feelings by doing so.

                                                    I wouldn't be surprised if the story has some small spark of truth
                                                    to it, and has just been blown way out of proportion, maybe by Bix
                                                    himself. During the time that this incident allegedly took place,
                                                    Bix was in poor health, depressed, worn out, and most likely overly-
                                                    sensitive and such a small thing could've sparked some exaggerated
                                                    comments by Bix to his friend who related the story. Then again,
                                                    his friend, who didn't seem to get along with Bix's family, may have
                                                    exaggerated it, or a writer taking down the story exaggerated it,
                                                    and so now you have the very dramatic: "He mailed home every record
                                                    he cut and his parents never listened to a single one" story. Oh
                                                    well, it's helped Bix's story endure, but it is untrue, and a
                                                    terrible legacy for his family to have to carry.
                                                  • Robert Greenwood
                                                    Just to add my two-penn orth to this matter: I would add Johnny Wiggs as another Bixian cornet man, although, I suppose, since Wiggs was a New Orleans man,
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Apr 18, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Just to add my two-penn'orth to this matter: I would add Johnny Wiggs
                                                      as another Bixian cornet man, although, I suppose, since Wiggs was a
                                                      New Orleans man, there may be some question as to whether, in Wiggs, we
                                                      are hearing Bix through the possible common influence on both players
                                                      of Emmett Hardy.
                                                      As to Wild Bill, I've always felt that he was a possible influence,
                                                      among others, on the playing of Ruby Braff.
                                                      Robert Greenwood.
                                                    • Albert Haim
                                                      I just ran across this and I thought it would be of interest. From Swing Shift, A Profile of Artie Shaw by Aaron Cohen, in Issue #8 of The Baffler and
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Apr 23, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I just ran across this and I thought it would be of interest.

                                                        From Swing Shift, A Profile of Artie Shaw by Aaron Cohen, in Issue #8
                                                        of The Baffler and reprinted in the Jazz Journalists Association
                                                        website http://www.jazzhouse.org

                                                        "In one of the gems of Shaw's later years, "Love of My Life," he shows
                                                        how an alluring solo can be built on concentrated restraint. The
                                                        compilation on which that song appears, The Last Recordings,
                                                        demonstrates the influence on Shaw of such varied figures as Bela
                                                        Bartok and onetime Shaw roommate Bix Beiderbecke."

                                                        That was one my points in previous posts. Bix's influence/inspiration
                                                        on several musicians was more subtle (just like his playing) than
                                                        Armstrong's. I am not asserting that Bix's influence is as important
                                                        as Armstrong's, that would be foolish. But in a restrained manner,
                                                        Bix's imprint is a lot wider than it would seem at first glance.

                                                        Albert



                                                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Greenwood"
                                                        <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Just to add my two-penn'orth to this matter: I would add Johnny Wiggs
                                                        > as another Bixian cornet man, although, I suppose, since Wiggs was a
                                                        > New Orleans man, there may be some question as to whether, in Wiggs, we
                                                        > are hearing Bix through the possible common influence on both players
                                                        > of Emmett Hardy.
                                                        > As to Wild Bill, I've always felt that he was a possible influence,
                                                        > among others, on the playing of Ruby Braff.
                                                        > Robert Greenwood.
                                                        >
                                                      • Albert Haim
                                                        Chapter 24 of Keeping Time: Readings in Jazz History, edited by Robert Walser (Oxford University, 1998) is Duke Ellington Explains Swing, an article by
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Apr 23, 2006
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Chapter 24 of "Keeping Time: Readings in Jazz History," edited by
                                                          Robert Walser (Oxford University, 1998) is "Duke Ellington Explains
                                                          Swing," an article by Ellington originally published with the title
                                                          "Music Is Tops To You And Me ... And Swing Is A Part Of It," Tops,
                                                          1938, pp. 14-18. Ellington writes the following about Bix.

                                                          "King Oliver, in Chicago, presented Louis Armstrong to a fascinated
                                                          public in 1922. That amazing Negro trumpeter, who made free with any
                                                          and every score offered him, had convinced young Bix Beiderbecke that
                                                          his white man's trumpeting was corny. Bix adopted the Armstrong
                                                          technique, became the greatest of white trumpeters, joined Paul
                                                          Whiteman, and profoundly influenced all other contemporary trumpeters.
                                                          That's all part of the history."
                                                          Only in part, part of the history I know. Why, oh why is there so much
                                                          misinformation written about Bix? True, Bix "profoundly influenced all
                                                          other contemporary trumpeters" as we have discussed extensively in the
                                                          current thread. But, "Bix adopted the Armstrong technique"? Couldn't
                                                          Ellington hear with his own ears the enormous differences between
                                                          Louis's and Bix's techniques? Louis the spectacular and histrionic
                                                          techniqe; Bix the understated and subtle technique?

                                                          Albert




                                                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > I just ran across this and I thought it would be of interest.
                                                          >
                                                          > From Swing Shift, A Profile of Artie Shaw by Aaron Cohen, in Issue #8
                                                          > of The Baffler and reprinted in the Jazz Journalists Association
                                                          > website http://www.jazzhouse.org
                                                          >
                                                          > "In one of the gems of Shaw's later years, "Love of My Life," he shows
                                                          > how an alluring solo can be built on concentrated restraint. The
                                                          > compilation on which that song appears, The Last Recordings,
                                                          > demonstrates the influence on Shaw of such varied figures as Bela
                                                          > Bartok and onetime Shaw roommate Bix Beiderbecke."
                                                          >
                                                          > That was one my points in previous posts. Bix's influence/inspiration
                                                          > on several musicians was more subtle (just like his playing) than
                                                          > Armstrong's. I am not asserting that Bix's influence is as important
                                                          > as Armstrong's, that would be foolish. But in a restrained manner,
                                                          > Bix's imprint is a lot wider than it would seem at first glance.
                                                          >
                                                          > Albert
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Greenwood"
                                                          > <robertgreenwood_54uk@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Just to add my two-penn'orth to this matter: I would add Johnny Wiggs
                                                          > > as another Bixian cornet man, although, I suppose, since Wiggs was a
                                                          > > New Orleans man, there may be some question as to whether, in
                                                          Wiggs, we
                                                          > > are hearing Bix through the possible common influence on both players
                                                          > > of Emmett Hardy.
                                                          > > As to Wild Bill, I've always felt that he was a possible influence,
                                                          > > among others, on the playing of Ruby Braff.
                                                          > > Robert Greenwood.
                                                          > >
                                                          >
                                                        • kknauer
                                                          Corny my butt! (cough, cough, excuse me, but REALLY, give me a break!) ... From: Albert Haim Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Singin the Blues, Bix, and Tram More
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Apr 23, 2006
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Corny my butt! (cough, cough, excuse me, but REALLY, give me a break!)
                                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                                            From: Albert Haim
                                                            Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" More About The Bix Influence


                                                            "King Oliver, in Chicago, presented Louis Armstrong to a fascinated
                                                            public in 1922. That amazing Negro trumpeter, who made free with any
                                                            and every score offered him, had convinced young Bix Beiderbecke that
                                                            his white man's trumpeting was corny.

                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • David Brown
                                                            Hello Albert I have been scouring my Ellingtonia for Bix ref. A 1969 Newsweek interview as reported in Jewell :- I used to hear Paul Whiteman records
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Apr 24, 2006
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Hello Albert

                                                              I have been scouring my Ellingtonia for Bix ref. A 1969 'Newsweek'
                                                              interview as reported in Jewell :-

                                                              ' I used to hear Paul Whiteman records taking the snobbishness out of music
                                                              and opening the doors for musicians like Beiderbecke and the Dorseys, who
                                                              had great talent and impeccable taste. '

                                                              Collier observes whole tone scales in 'New Orleans Lowdown' and 'Awful Sad'
                                                              and muses that these came into the band through Whetsol who had picked it up
                                                              from Bix 'who knew some of the Ellington men and was using whole tone scales
                                                              himself.'

                                                              Several sources report Bix's presence at Ellington gigs and one has him
                                                              sitting in.

                                                              As to the 1938 article, caution. How much is Ellington ? The vocabulary,
                                                              content and, for Ellington, racially assertive tone strain credulity.

                                                              I agree, I hear no Louis at all in Bix.



                                                              Dave


                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            • kknauer
                                                              I thought Bix s use of the whole tone scale was something influenced by the impressionist composers he listened to. (Boy, I wish I knew more about music, I
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Apr 24, 2006
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                I thought Bix's use of the whole tone scale was something influenced by the impressionist composers he listened to. (Boy, I wish I knew more about music, I can play it a little but I sure as heck can't read it.)


                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                From: David Brown
                                                                Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues, Bix, and Tram" More About The Bix Influence


                                                                Hello Albert

                                                                I have been scouring my Ellingtonia for Bix ref. A 1969 'Newsweek'
                                                                interview as reported in Jewell :-

                                                                Collier observes whole tone scales in 'New Orleans Lowdown' and 'Awful Sad'
                                                                and muses that these came into the band through Whetsol who had picked it up
                                                                from Bix 'who knew some of the Ellington men and was using whole tone scales
                                                                himself.'

                                                                Several sources report Bix's presence at Ellington gigs and one has him
                                                                sitting in.

                                                                Dave

                                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.