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Re: [RedHotJazz] Bolden Cylinder continued

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  • Howard Rye
    Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks s Lost Sounds on pages 514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made by Willy Cornish
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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      Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks's Lost Sounds on pages
      514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made by Willy
      Cornish (to Charles Edward Smith) in 1939, and this would indicate a date
      before 1898 when Cornish left Bolden's band. However, citation is of an
      account by Smith as late as 1957.

      Apparently George Baquet, Alphonse Picou and Bob Lyons also claimed to have
      recorded with Bolden in about 1906, so we have actually claims for two
      Bolden cylinders, not one. However, the source for this is Al Rose's I
      Remember Jazz, p.126/7. This one comes even with a claim about the tunes
      recorded (Make Me A Pallet On The Floor & Turkey In the Straw). Oddly enough
      Tom Brooks only mentions the second title and I wonder why.

      Brooks concludes, "If Bolden did record it was probably a custom recording
      for a local dealer using one of the omnipresent cylinder machines of the
      day, most of which could record as well as play back."

      According to Tim, the Louisiana Phonograph Company only operated from 1891
      to 1893 so cannot have been involved.

      It's anybody's guess how much prompting generated by wishful thinking may
      have gone into the gathering of any of these claims!



      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
    • David N. Lewis
      ... recording ... from 1891 ... thinking may ... I don t know when Tim wrote that part of his book, and have actually seen this citation. He probably got the
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
        >

        > Brooks concludes, "If Bolden did record it was probably a custom
        recording
        > for a local dealer using one of the omnipresent cylinder machines of the
        > day, most of which could record as well as play back."
        >
        > According to Tim, the Louisiana Phonograph Company only operated
        from 1891
        > to 1893 so cannot have been involved.
        >
        > It's anybody's guess how much prompting generated by wishful
        thinking may
        > have gone into the gathering of any of these claims!

        I don't know when Tim wrote that part of his book, and have actually
        seen this citation. He probably got the 1891-1893 dates for Louisiana
        Phono from Raymond Wile's listing of the regional cylinder companies
        of the 90s. That's an excellent piece of detective work, but sometimes
        the dates, derived from Edison company files, need to be revised
        upward. Wile gives 1890-1893 for Ohio Phonograph, but researching it
        locally in Cincinnati we found that city directories placed the dates
        as 1889-1896. And the booklet for the "Lost Sounds" CD places the
        Vasnier cylinder in 1895.

        But if the first part of the statement above is true, then the (first
        prospective) Bolden cylinder probably wasn't made before 1900. Gus
        Cannon, incidentally, also claimed recording in New Orleans in 1901.
        After North American broke up in 1898 it was easier for a "local
        dealer" to own "one of the omnipresent machines of the day" because
        lots of different companies began to make them and they were, at last,
        omnipresent.

        UD
      • Howard Rye
        ... I think it s fair to say that Tim is not very impressed by the Willie Cornish claim, but in order to judge it we have to get a bit closer to what Cornish
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 2, 2006
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          on 2/4/06 6:41, David N. Lewis at udtv@... wrote:

          > But if the first part of the statement above is true, then the (first
          > prospective) Bolden cylinder probably wasn't made before 1900.

          I think it's fair to say that Tim is not very impressed by the Willie
          Cornish claim, but in order to judge it we have to get a bit closer to what
          Cornish actually said than Charles Edward Smith's recollections in 1957.

          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        • jazzguy1927
          -- wrote: Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks s Lost Sounds on pages 514/5. I did
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 5, 2006
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            --< In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
            Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks's Lost Sounds on
            pages 514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made
            by Willy Cornish (to Charles Edward Smith) in 1939, and this would
            indicate a date before 1898 when Cornish left Bolden's band. However,
            citation is of an account by Smith as late as 1957.>

            On page 44 of Donald Marquis book, "In Search Of Buddy Bolden" -
            Louisiana State University Press-1978, it confirms what you relate
            above-In 1939 Willie Cornish told Charles Edward Smith that the
            cylinder had been made before 1898.It also mentions that Smith along
            with Orin Blackstone and Bill Russell began an extensive search for it
            but their leads met frustrating dead ends.
            This indicates these authors of the pioneering book, Jazzmen,along with
            Orin Blackstone believed Cornish about the cylinder being made and its
            possible existance that they actually searched for it in 1939 when
            Cornish told them about it or sometime after 1939.Unfortunately they
            were unsuccessful in locating it.
            The search for the cylinder never died even after Smith's and Russell's
            fruitless searches because in 1951 the Second Line magazine in New
            Orleans, which was the magazine of the New Orleans Jazz Club,offered a
            monetary reward of $100 for information but nothing turned up from that
            effort either.

            I met Frederick Ramsey in 1982 at Tulane University in New Orleans when
            he was participating in a seminar on Jelly Roll Morton during the
            Tulane Hot Jazz Classic.Bill Russell also was a member of the Morton
            seminar panel.When i asked Ramsey about the cylinder then he said there
            were many stories about who recorded the cylinder including a man who
            owned a grocery store and recorded the band for his own amusement on a
            cylinder machine that could record on wax blanks as well as
            playback.Bill Russell then told me a story he had heard from a musician
            that Bolden had given the cylinder as a present in about the year 1900
            to a prostitute he knew who lived only a few blocks from his address on
            First Street.He even got her name from the musician and tryed to locate
            her in the 1940's but was unsuccessfull.-Tim
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