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Re: [RedHotJazz] under intellectualising    was  over-intellectualizing

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  • pryordodge@aol.com
    ... Could someone please fill me in on the Buddy Bolden cylinder? My understanding until today was that he never recorded. Thanks, Pryor Dodge [Non-text
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 30, 2006
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      In a message dated 3/29/06 10:48:49 PM, johnhaleysims@... writes:


      > I fear I studiously avoid either the playing or 'criticism'  of the
      > Marsalis
      > industry and had not realised that the Buddy Bolden cylinder had finally
      > turned up.
      >

      Could someone please fill me in on the Buddy Bolden cylinder? My
      understanding until today was that he never recorded.

      Thanks,

      Pryor Dodge


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mordechai Litzman
      I have a recording of a cylinder with Marsalis (not Freddie K). It sounds pretty convincing until towards the end, where he plays too modern. (This smiley
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 30, 2006
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        I have a recording of a cylinder with Marsalis (not Freddie K). It sounds pretty convincing until towards the end, where he plays too "modern." (This smiley is for Patrice)
        pryordodge@... wrote:
        In a message dated 3/29/06 10:48:49 PM, johnhaleysims@... writes:


        > I fear I studiously avoid either the playing or 'criticism' of the
        > Marsalis
        > industry and had not realised that the Buddy Bolden cylinder had finally
        > turned up.
        >

        Could someone please fill me in on the Buddy Bolden cylinder? My
        understanding until today was that he never recorded.

        Thanks,

        Pryor Dodge


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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      • David Brown
        Pryor The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the source of this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder recording of
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 30, 2006
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          Pryor

          The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the source of
          this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder recording
          of Buddy Bolden which achieved mythic status but which has never been
          discovered.

          I was implying that without such evidence nobody -- least of all the
          ubiquitous and unctuous Marsalis -- can pontificate on his influence on
          Louis or early jazz style. Speculation on his style is however possible and
          valid and has been , over the years, attempted by various factions with
          variable success.

          Patrice

          Smileys man ? Now why did Jane Austen never think of that ? But the best I
          can do is parenthesis ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) -- no, no I don't mean THIS
          is irony --or do I ? ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) ( AND SO WAS THAT PARENTHESIS !)
          ( AND SO WAS THAT ! ) (ETC) however once irony has to be signposted it is
          worthless and so I assume to be banished from this forum ?

          Jp

          The only value of the Burns was the archive footage well counterbalanced by
          the spurious and simplistic 'history'.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mordechai Litzman
          I have a cylinder recording of Wynston Marsalis (not Buddy B) that is pretty convincing in it s authenticity. However, towards the end of the recording he
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 30, 2006
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            I have a cylinder recording of Wynston Marsalis (not Buddy B) that is pretty convincing in it's authenticity. However, towards the end of the recording he plays some "modern" riffs and spoils the old time effect.
            Speaking of wax cylinder rolls, as recently as last year the Paragon Ragtime Orchestra waxed several cylinders on 1899 equipment at the Edison Laboratories in New Jersey. To hear (and see) this session, go to Playlist for Thomas Edison's Attic - June 14, 2005 at http://www.wfmu.org/playlists/shows/15373. Have fun!

            David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
            Pryor

            The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the source of
            this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder recording
            of Buddy Bolden which achieved mythic status but which has never been
            discovered.

            I was implying that without such evidence nobody -- least of all the
            ubiquitous and unctuous Marsalis -- can pontificate on his influence on
            Louis or early jazz style. Speculation on his style is however possible and
            valid and has been , over the years, attempted by various factions with
            variable success.

            Patrice

            Smileys man ? Now why did Jane Austen never think of that ? But the best I
            can do is parenthesis ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) -- no, no I don't mean THIS
            is irony --or do I ? ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) ( AND SO WAS THAT PARENTHESIS !)
            ( AND SO WAS THAT ! ) (ETC) however once irony has to be signposted it is
            worthless and so I assume to be banished from this forum ?

            Jp

            The only value of the Burns was the archive footage well counterbalanced by
            the spurious and simplistic 'history'.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Howard Rye
            ... A very interesting question. My late father was find of saying, It isn t the knowing, it s the knowing where to look , and where to look has to be
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 31, 2006
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              on 31/3/06 4:01, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              > The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the source of
              > this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder recording
              > of Buddy Bolden whi

              A very interesting question. My late father was find of saying, "It isn't
              the knowing, it's the knowing where to look", and "where to look" has to be
              Donald M. Marquis, In Search of Buddy Bolden, but this has no topic index
              and I can't locate any reference. Surely, Marquis must have investigated
              this legend.

              From memory (a VERY bad guide) I associate the story with Willie Cornish.

              It is worth saying that it was very easy to make private recordings in the
              cylinder era. One that undoubtedly once existed will be found in Rust under
              Wilbur Sweatman. Cylinder machines were designed to record as well as play
              and many gramophone shops offered the opportunity to make your own cylinder.
              As with later custom-recording services most people probably recorded
              themselves singing current pop hits for unwanted Mother's Day gifts, but no
              doubt some were recorded for promotional use by professional players.

              The problem is that they only lasted for a few playings, so the whole
              question is academic, barring a miracle. Commercial cylinders are a bad
              enough problem. There is no doubt that the banjo playing Bohee Brothers made
              commercial records in Britain as early as 1890. The importance of these to
              the study of what happened before jazz could be beyond estimation, but
              unfortunately not a single one of them has yet been recovered.

              I would suggest that it is not entirely true that we cannot know Bolden's
              influence without being able to hear him. We can choose to believe what his
              contemporaries in the African-American community tell us (or rather told
              earlier researchers). This is not speculation on his style, it is
              descriptions by people who heard him. Marquis makes the attempt in his
              chapter "How and What He Played". He also looks at the way Bolden's
              practices were communicated to younger musicians through certain named
              teachers. The fact that so many people have a vested interest in confusing
              the issue doesn't mean that we have to treat even the evidence as
              speculation.


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • tommersl
              ... I never realized what Marsalis is trying to prove. I am not against anything he did, just that I m trying to realize what his output leads to. For 90 years
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 31, 2006
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                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have a recording of a cylinder with Marsalis (not Freddie K). It
                > sounds pretty convincing until towards the end, where he plays too
                > "modern." (This smiley is for Patrice)

                I never realized what Marsalis is trying to prove. I am not against
                anything he did, just that I'm trying to realize what his output leads
                to. For 90 years Jazz musicians and fans were talking about Bolden and
                Keppard, and as good as the Marsalis projects are I still don't see it
                as a replacement to the real thing. I like Marsalis work though as
                Jazz without looking at it as historical ambitions.
                Just my opinion.
                tommersl
              • Andrew Homzy
                Howard Rye s words below reminded me of the incredible musical archeology accomplished by Humprey Lyttleton on the Lp where he reconstructed Bolden and his
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 31, 2006
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                  Howard Rye's words below reminded me of the incredible musical archeology
                  accomplished by Humprey Lyttleton on the Lp where he reconstructed Bolden
                  and his band. [Sorry, I don't have the details at hand]

                  Surely this is historical musicology at its best and the work involved would
                  warrant a PhD from many reputable universities in the USofA today - but not
                  when the Lp came out, because, in those days musical academics found jazz
                  abhorrent.



                  > From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                  > Reply-To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:44:02 +0100
                  > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Bolden (was under intellectualising)

                  > I would suggest that it is not entirely true that we cannot know Bolden's
                  > influence without being able to hear him. We can choose to believe what his
                  > contemporaries in the African-American community tell us (or rather told
                  > earlier researchers). This is not speculation on his style, it is
                  > descriptions by people who heard him. Marquis makes the attempt in his
                  > chapter "How and What He Played". He also looks at the way Bolden's
                  > practices were communicated to younger musicians through certain named
                  > teachers. The fact that so many people have a vested interest in confusing
                  > the issue doesn't mean that we have to treat even the evidence as
                  > speculation.
                • Andrew Homzy
                  It s interesting that Michael Rader also brought Lyttleton s work to this forum at the same time as I did. Great minds think alike. Michael brings forth the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 31, 2006
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                    It's interesting that Michael Rader also brought Lyttleton's work to this
                    forum at the same time as I did. Great minds think alike.

                    Michael brings forth the issue of tongue-in-cheek humor with regards to
                    Lyttleton's presentation. For me, there is nothing wrong with that. After
                    all, what they do is entirely speculative - but based on some very well
                    researched and convincing evidence. After all, this is joyous music and
                    without a semblance of levity, we might as well listen to dodecaphonic
                    music.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique.

                    Cheers,

                    Andrew Homzy, Montréal




                    > From: Andrew Homzy <homzy@...>
                    > Reply-To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 12:35:16 -0500
                    > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Buddy Bolden reconstructed
                    >
                    > Howard Rye's words below reminded me of the incredible musical archeology
                    > accomplished by Humprey Lyttleton on the Lp where he reconstructed Bolden
                    > and his band. [Sorry, I don't have the details at hand]
                    >
                    > Surely this is historical musicology at its best and the work involved would
                    > warrant a PhD from many reputable universities in the USofA today - but not
                    > when the Lp came out, because, in those days musical academics found jazz
                    > abhorrent.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                    >> Reply-To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 10:44:02 +0100
                    >> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Bolden (was under intellectualising)
                    >
                    >> I would suggest that it is not entirely true that we cannot know Bolden's
                    >> influence without being able to hear him. We can choose to believe what his
                    >> contemporaries in the African-American community tell us (or rather told
                    >> earlier researchers). This is not speculation on his style, it is
                    >> descriptions by people who heard him. Marquis makes the attempt in his
                    >> chapter "How and What He Played". He also looks at the way Bolden's
                    >> practices were communicated to younger musicians through certain named
                    >> teachers. The fact that so many people have a vested interest in confusing
                    >> the issue doesn't mean that we have to treat even the evidence as
                    >> speculation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • bongroika@comcast.net
                    aw there aint nothin intellectualizing ... From: David Brown Pryor The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 31, 2006
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                      aw there aint nothin intellectualizing

                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                      Pryor

                      The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the source of
                      this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder recording
                      of Buddy Bolden which achieved mythic status but which has never been
                      discovered.

                      I was implying that without such evidence nobody -- least of all the
                      ubiquitous and unctuous Marsalis -- can pontificate on his influence on
                      Louis or early jazz style. Speculation on his style is however possible and
                      valid and has been , over the years, attempted by various factions with
                      variable success.

                      Patrice

                      Smileys man ? Now why did Jane Austen never think of that ? But the best I
                      can do is parenthesis ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) -- no, no I don't mean THIS
                      is irony --or do I ? ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) ( AND SO WAS THAT PARENTHESIS !)
                      ( AND SO WAS THAT ! ) (ETC) however once irony has to be signposted it is
                      worthless and so I assume to be banished from this forum ?

                      Jp

                      The only value of the Burns was the archive footage well counterbalanced by
                      the spurious and simplistic 'history'.




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                      Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David N. Lewis
                      I did my own reconstruction of Bolden s music with my rock band Cointelpro, and some horn players and a banjo, at a show at the Jockey Club in Newport Ky in
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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                        I did my own reconstruction of Bolden's music with my rock band
                        Cointelpro, and some horn players and a banjo, at a show at the Jockey
                        Club in Newport Ky in late 1983. We jammed on "If You don't Shake You
                        Don't Get No Cake" and in the middle I delivered a throrougly
                        long-winded and pretentious monologue about the Bolden legend. No one
                        "got" it, but I think I have a tape around around here of the
                        performance. It was not a "serious" reconstruction, just me delving
                        into what would have then been a hopelessly obscure topic for a
                        captive audience. If you know anything about my work as an entertainer
                        it makes total sense. Anyway...

                        I can't find the reference, but here someone speculated about the
                        Bolden cylinder as though it might have been made by a hobbyist. That
                        isn't likely - at all. Private ownership of phonographs capable of
                        recording is something that doesn't really get underway until about
                        1900. Prior to that if you needed one (such as James Mooney's
                        phonograph, purchase of which was underwritten by the Bureau of Indian
                        affairs) you almost had to buy one from Thomas Edison himself. it was
                        a problem of production - Edison products up to about 1908 (when the
                        "Little Gem" was produced) were complex, heavy, had many moving parts
                        and broke down a lot. That's why in the 90s the cylinder business was
                        heavily invested in coin-operated machines placed in phonograph
                        parlours or saloons, not to mention those used for business dictation.
                        If they failed, which they did a lot, someone had to come out and fix
                        it - if it was in a parlour then it could be fixed right away by the
                        person on staff.

                        The North American Phonograph Company, which was Edison's nationwide
                        "trust" that controlled phonograph interests, divided the country into
                        several regional districts. The New Orleans district was represented
                        by the Louisiana Phonograph Company. The big studios in New York and
                        Washington were equipped with enough phonographs to make 50 cylinders
                        per performance - there was no mass duplication of cylinders in those
                        days. The smaller, regional companies could only produce 5-6 cylinders
                        per performance, and these locally made cylinders are rarer than hen's
                        teeth - most went straight into a coin operated machine.

                        I know of one surviving cylinder from the Louisiana Phonograph
                        Company, and that is the Louis Vasnier performance used on the "Lost
                        Sounds" compilation issued by Archeophone. So it is not altogether
                        unrealistic that the Bolden cylinder, which may have been a march,
                        could be found. But the climate in new Orleans is not kind to
                        something like a wax cylinder - it is very moist and humid, conditions
                        (along with mold) that are death to such fragile objects. North
                        American went bankrupt in 1898, and while certain regional recrding
                        companies re-organized and survived, most went under, some even before
                        (Ohio Phonograph Company went into receivership before, in 1896.) Even
                        by '96 it was getting to be impossible to get parts from Edison, and
                        by that time you had to buy them outright.

                        Gotta cut this short - wife is callin.

                        Uncle Dave Lewis
                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, bongroika@... wrote:
                        >
                        > aw there aint nothin intellectualizing
                        >
                        > -------------- Original message --------------
                        > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                        > Pryor
                        >
                        > The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the
                        source of
                        > this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder
                        recording
                        > of Buddy Bolden which achieved mythic status but which has never been
                        > discovered.
                        >
                        > I was implying that without such evidence nobody -- least of all the
                        > ubiquitous and unctuous Marsalis -- can pontificate on his
                        influence on
                        > Louis or early jazz style. Speculation on his style is however
                        possible and
                        > valid and has been , over the years, attempted by various factions with
                        > variable success.
                        >
                        > Patrice
                        >
                        > Smileys man ? Now why did Jane Austen never think of that ? But the
                        best I
                        > can do is parenthesis ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) -- no, no I don't mean
                        THIS
                        > is irony --or do I ? ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) ( AND SO WAS THAT
                        PARENTHESIS !)
                        > ( AND SO WAS THAT ! ) (ETC) however once irony has to be signposted
                        it is
                        > worthless and so I assume to be banished from this forum ?
                        >
                        > Jp
                        >
                        > The only value of the Burns was the archive footage well
                        counterbalanced by
                        > the spurious and simplistic 'history'.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                        >
                        > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • David N. Lewis
                        To finish, if the Bolden cylinder survives in a private collection, then most likely it would belong to the descendants of someone who worked for Louisiana
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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                          To finish, if the Bolden cylinder survives in a private collection,
                          then most likely it would belong to the descendants of someone who
                          worked for Louisiana Phono and later moved away from the city. It may
                          even already exist in an institutional collection, but it might be
                          missing its box and/or slip, or the spoken introduction is audible, or
                          is claimed by mold, a problem we don't know how to fix just yet.

                          One thing that should be done is to identify the name of the band that
                          would have recorded it. It probably won't be obvious, like "Bolden's
                          Band," more likely a name like "The Eagle Band" or some such. I've
                          never seen a comprehensive listing of records from Louisiana
                          Phonograph, but if a printed catalogue could be found one could see
                          what types of band selections the company was producing and deduce the
                          most likely candidates. And as to the date, speculation about which is
                          all over the map, I would say 1895 seems most likely, certainly not
                          later than 1898, when North American broke up.

                          Uncle Dave

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I did my own reconstruction of Bolden's music with my rock band
                          > Cointelpro, and some horn players and a banjo, at a show at the Jockey
                          > Club in Newport Ky in late 1983. We jammed on "If You don't Shake You
                          > Don't Get No Cake" and in the middle I delivered a throrougly
                          > long-winded and pretentious monologue about the Bolden legend. No one
                          > "got" it, but I think I have a tape around around here of the
                          > performance. It was not a "serious" reconstruction, just me delving
                          > into what would have then been a hopelessly obscure topic for a
                          > captive audience. If you know anything about my work as an entertainer
                          > it makes total sense. Anyway...
                          >
                          > I can't find the reference, but here someone speculated about the
                          > Bolden cylinder as though it might have been made by a hobbyist. That
                          > isn't likely - at all. Private ownership of phonographs capable of
                          > recording is something that doesn't really get underway until about
                          > 1900. Prior to that if you needed one (such as James Mooney's
                          > phonograph, purchase of which was underwritten by the Bureau of Indian
                          > affairs) you almost had to buy one from Thomas Edison himself. it was
                          > a problem of production - Edison products up to about 1908 (when the
                          > "Little Gem" was produced) were complex, heavy, had many moving parts
                          > and broke down a lot. That's why in the 90s the cylinder business was
                          > heavily invested in coin-operated machines placed in phonograph
                          > parlours or saloons, not to mention those used for business dictation.
                          > If they failed, which they did a lot, someone had to come out and fix
                          > it - if it was in a parlour then it could be fixed right away by the
                          > person on staff.
                          >
                          > The North American Phonograph Company, which was Edison's nationwide
                          > "trust" that controlled phonograph interests, divided the country into
                          > several regional districts. The New Orleans district was represented
                          > by the Louisiana Phonograph Company. The big studios in New York and
                          > Washington were equipped with enough phonographs to make 50 cylinders
                          > per performance - there was no mass duplication of cylinders in those
                          > days. The smaller, regional companies could only produce 5-6 cylinders
                          > per performance, and these locally made cylinders are rarer than hen's
                          > teeth - most went straight into a coin operated machine.
                          >
                          > I know of one surviving cylinder from the Louisiana Phonograph
                          > Company, and that is the Louis Vasnier performance used on the "Lost
                          > Sounds" compilation issued by Archeophone. So it is not altogether
                          > unrealistic that the Bolden cylinder, which may have been a march,
                          > could be found. But the climate in new Orleans is not kind to
                          > something like a wax cylinder - it is very moist and humid, conditions
                          > (along with mold) that are death to such fragile objects. North
                          > American went bankrupt in 1898, and while certain regional recrding
                          > companies re-organized and survived, most went under, some even before
                          > (Ohio Phonograph Company went into receivership before, in 1896.) Even
                          > by '96 it was getting to be impossible to get parts from Edison, and
                          > by that time you had to buy them outright.
                          >
                          > Gotta cut this short - wife is callin.
                          >
                          > Uncle Dave Lewis
                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, bongroika@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > aw there aint nothin intellectualizing
                          > >
                          > > -------------- Original message --------------
                          > > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                          > > Pryor
                          > >
                          > > The early histories of Jazz proposed -- and does anybody know the
                          > source of
                          > > this whimsy -- Howard ? --- the existence of an actual cylinder
                          > recording
                          > > of Buddy Bolden which achieved mythic status but which has never been
                          > > discovered.
                          > >
                          > > I was implying that without such evidence nobody -- least of all the
                          > > ubiquitous and unctuous Marsalis -- can pontificate on his
                          > influence on
                          > > Louis or early jazz style. Speculation on his style is however
                          > possible and
                          > > valid and has been , over the years, attempted by various
                          factions with
                          > > variable success.
                          > >
                          > > Patrice
                          > >
                          > > Smileys man ? Now why did Jane Austen never think of that ? But the
                          > best I
                          > > can do is parenthesis ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) -- no, no I don't mean
                          > THIS
                          > > is irony --or do I ? ( THIS IS IRONY ! ) ( AND SO WAS THAT
                          > PARENTHESIS !)
                          > > ( AND SO WAS THAT ! ) (ETC) however once irony has to be signposted
                          > it is
                          > > worthless and so I assume to be banished from this forum ?
                          > >
                          > > Jp
                          > >
                          > > The only value of the Burns was the archive footage well
                          > counterbalanced by
                          > > the spurious and simplistic 'history'.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                          > >
                          > > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • Howard Rye
                          ... I certainly didn t mean to suggest it might have been made by a hobbyist, rather by some outfit like the Metropolitan Music Store in Minneapolis that made
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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                            on 1/4/06 16:51, David N. Lewis at udtv@... wrote:

                            > I can't find the reference, but here someone speculated about the
                            > Bolden cylinder as though it might have been made by a hobbyist. That
                            > isn't likely - at all. Private ownership of phonographs capable of
                            > recording is something that doesn't really get underway until about
                            > 1900.

                            I certainly didn't mean to suggest it might have been made by a hobbyist,
                            rather by some outfit like the Metropolitan Music Store in Minneapolis that
                            made Sweatman's 1903 cylinder.

                            If anyone does locate the source of the Bolden cylinder story, please tell.
                            So far, I've found several references but all in terms of it being a story
                            which everyone already knows and is almost certainly false. It would be
                            particularly interesting to know whether even an approximate date was
                            attached to the original telling.

                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            howard@...
                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                          • Howard Rye
                            Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks s Lost Sounds on pages 514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made by Willy Cornish
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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                              Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks's Lost Sounds on pages
                              514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made by Willy
                              Cornish (to Charles Edward Smith) in 1939, and this would indicate a date
                              before 1898 when Cornish left Bolden's band. However, citation is of an
                              account by Smith as late as 1957.

                              Apparently George Baquet, Alphonse Picou and Bob Lyons also claimed to have
                              recorded with Bolden in about 1906, so we have actually claims for two
                              Bolden cylinders, not one. However, the source for this is Al Rose's I
                              Remember Jazz, p.126/7. This one comes even with a claim about the tunes
                              recorded (Make Me A Pallet On The Floor & Turkey In the Straw). Oddly enough
                              Tom Brooks only mentions the second title and I wonder why.

                              Brooks concludes, "If Bolden did record it was probably a custom recording
                              for a local dealer using one of the omnipresent cylinder machines of the
                              day, most of which could record as well as play back."

                              According to Tim, the Louisiana Phonograph Company only operated from 1891
                              to 1893 so cannot have been involved.

                              It's anybody's guess how much prompting generated by wishful thinking may
                              have gone into the gathering of any of these claims!



                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                            • David N. Lewis
                              ... recording ... from 1891 ... thinking may ... I don t know when Tim wrote that part of his book, and have actually seen this citation. He probably got the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 1, 2006
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                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                                >

                                > Brooks concludes, "If Bolden did record it was probably a custom
                                recording
                                > for a local dealer using one of the omnipresent cylinder machines of the
                                > day, most of which could record as well as play back."
                                >
                                > According to Tim, the Louisiana Phonograph Company only operated
                                from 1891
                                > to 1893 so cannot have been involved.
                                >
                                > It's anybody's guess how much prompting generated by wishful
                                thinking may
                                > have gone into the gathering of any of these claims!

                                I don't know when Tim wrote that part of his book, and have actually
                                seen this citation. He probably got the 1891-1893 dates for Louisiana
                                Phono from Raymond Wile's listing of the regional cylinder companies
                                of the 90s. That's an excellent piece of detective work, but sometimes
                                the dates, derived from Edison company files, need to be revised
                                upward. Wile gives 1890-1893 for Ohio Phonograph, but researching it
                                locally in Cincinnati we found that city directories placed the dates
                                as 1889-1896. And the booklet for the "Lost Sounds" CD places the
                                Vasnier cylinder in 1895.

                                But if the first part of the statement above is true, then the (first
                                prospective) Bolden cylinder probably wasn't made before 1900. Gus
                                Cannon, incidentally, also claimed recording in New Orleans in 1901.
                                After North American broke up in 1898 it was easier for a "local
                                dealer" to own "one of the omnipresent machines of the day" because
                                lots of different companies began to make them and they were, at last,
                                omnipresent.

                                UD
                              • Howard Rye
                                ... I think it s fair to say that Tim is not very impressed by the Willie Cornish claim, but in order to judge it we have to get a bit closer to what Cornish
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 2, 2006
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                                  on 2/4/06 6:41, David N. Lewis at udtv@... wrote:

                                  > But if the first part of the statement above is true, then the (first
                                  > prospective) Bolden cylinder probably wasn't made before 1900.

                                  I think it's fair to say that Tim is not very impressed by the Willie
                                  Cornish claim, but in order to judge it we have to get a bit closer to what
                                  Cornish actually said than Charles Edward Smith's recollections in 1957.

                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  howard@...
                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                • jazzguy1927
                                  -- wrote: Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks s Lost Sounds on pages 514/5. I did
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 5, 2006
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                                    --< In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                                    Actually the whole story is considered in Tim Brooks's Lost Sounds on
                                    pages 514/5. I did remember correctly that the original claim was made
                                    by Willy Cornish (to Charles Edward Smith) in 1939, and this would
                                    indicate a date before 1898 when Cornish left Bolden's band. However,
                                    citation is of an account by Smith as late as 1957.>

                                    On page 44 of Donald Marquis book, "In Search Of Buddy Bolden" -
                                    Louisiana State University Press-1978, it confirms what you relate
                                    above-In 1939 Willie Cornish told Charles Edward Smith that the
                                    cylinder had been made before 1898.It also mentions that Smith along
                                    with Orin Blackstone and Bill Russell began an extensive search for it
                                    but their leads met frustrating dead ends.
                                    This indicates these authors of the pioneering book, Jazzmen,along with
                                    Orin Blackstone believed Cornish about the cylinder being made and its
                                    possible existance that they actually searched for it in 1939 when
                                    Cornish told them about it or sometime after 1939.Unfortunately they
                                    were unsuccessful in locating it.
                                    The search for the cylinder never died even after Smith's and Russell's
                                    fruitless searches because in 1951 the Second Line magazine in New
                                    Orleans, which was the magazine of the New Orleans Jazz Club,offered a
                                    monetary reward of $100 for information but nothing turned up from that
                                    effort either.

                                    I met Frederick Ramsey in 1982 at Tulane University in New Orleans when
                                    he was participating in a seminar on Jelly Roll Morton during the
                                    Tulane Hot Jazz Classic.Bill Russell also was a member of the Morton
                                    seminar panel.When i asked Ramsey about the cylinder then he said there
                                    were many stories about who recorded the cylinder including a man who
                                    owned a grocery store and recorded the band for his own amusement on a
                                    cylinder machine that could record on wax blanks as well as
                                    playback.Bill Russell then told me a story he had heard from a musician
                                    that Bolden had given the cylinder as a present in about the year 1900
                                    to a prostitute he knew who lived only a few blocks from his address on
                                    First Street.He even got her name from the musician and tryed to locate
                                    her in the 1940's but was unsuccessfull.-Tim
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