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Re: [RedHotJazz] over-intellectualizing

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  • jkau779989@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mister_j@earthlink.net writes: Jeff, You re not alone. To enjoy a major talent like, for
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
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      In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      mister_j@... writes:
      Jeff,

      You're not alone.

      To enjoy a major talent like, for example, Eddie Lang, shouldn't cause one
      to denigrate the talents of a lesser know player like, for example, Charles
      Margulis (trumpeter for Whiteman and many others). Lang, due to talent and fame,
      was certainly more well known. However, influence is another thing
      entirely. For example, Margulis, almost unknown to the general public, was a master
      of his instrument who literally wrote the book ("The Art Of Trumpet Playing").

      The thing about "black or white" didn't mean much to the musicians
      themselves. For example, Bix Beiderbecke jammed with many musicians of color but
      because of the rules adhered to by the recording industry of the time, those
      precious sessions are lost to history.

      As to"Artist" vs "Entertainer." I think some musicians may have been better
      showmen than others but that has little to do with their musical ability.
      Showmanship is a quality which stands apart from the music, in my opinion and is
      a whole, separate issue.

      Jp






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Louis did originate his own style, the most influential in Jazz History. He stands as greatest genius of our music. I fear I studiously avoid either the
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
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        Louis did originate his own style, the most influential in Jazz History. He
        stands as greatest genius of our music.

        I fear I studiously avoid either the playing or 'criticism' of the Marsalis
        industry and had not realised that the Buddy Bolden cylinder had finally
        turned up.

        Louis' mentor was Joe Oliver and he also mentioned admiring Bunk. And no
        artist works in a vacuum and sure he would have been aware of the tradition
        of N.O. trumpet playing in which he grew up.

        Just how far his own originality had taken him from all previous styles is
        evident even in his first recordings.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeffrey Jastram
        Jp: Precisely! I think an even better example is Lang vs. Condon. To my mind, Mr. Lang was the more musically talented but, sadly, is far less widely
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 30, 2006
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          Jp:

          Precisely!

          I think an even better example is Lang vs. Condon. To my mind, Mr. Lang
          was the more musically talented but, sadly, is far less widely recognized
          than Eddie C. largely because of Mr. Condon's penchant for self-promotion.
          But, the strange irony is that, while E.C.'s instrumental virtuosity was
          somewhat limited, his superior talents at arranging, production, and
          forming excellent session groups have left us with some of the best
          recorded music of the "Chicago" style!

          So, perhaps, both are fine archetypes of that jazz maxim: "It Ain't What
          You Do, It's The Way That You Do It".

          Cheers,

          Jeff.



          ----- Original Message -----
          From:
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 3/29/2006 4:05:11 AM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] over-intellectualizing



          In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          mister_j@... writes:
          Jeff,

          You're not alone.

          To enjoy a major talent like, for example, Eddie Lang, shouldn't cause one
          to denigrate the talents of a lesser know player like, for example, Charles

          Margulis (trumpeter for Whiteman and many others). Lang, due to talent and
          fame,
          was certainly more well known. However, influence is another thing
          entirely. For example, Margulis, almost unknown to the general public, was
          a master
          of his instrument who literally wrote the book ("The Art Of Trumpet
          Playing").

          The thing about "black or white" didn't mean much to the musicians
          themselves. For example, Bix Beiderbecke jammed with many musicians of
          color but
          because of the rules adhered to by the recording industry of the time,
          those
          precious sessions are lost to history.

          As to"Artist" vs "Entertainer." I think some musicians may have been better

          showmen than others but that has little to do with their musical ability.
          Showmanship is a quality which stands apart from the music, in my opinion
          and is
          a whole, separate issue.

          Jp






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • Howard Rye
          My apologies but I can t locate which of you wrote the following, a comment sufficiently thought provoking that I have sat on it for couple of days in case I
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
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            My apologies but I can't locate which of you wrote the following, a comment
            sufficiently thought provoking that I have sat on it for couple of days in
            case I thought better of my original reaction. I haven't.

            > I don't know the origin of the quote, but Peter Schickele quotes Duke
            >> Ellington as saying "If it sounds good, it is good." Is Brahms
            >> criticized for writing Hungarian dances, or Bizet for writing Carmen?
            >> Are their works authentically Hungarian or Spanish?

            It had honestly never occurred to me that Brahms's Hungarian dances were
            anything other than authentic German/Austrian music or Bizet's Carmen
            anything other than authentic French music. Now I've thought about it a bit
            I still think this.

            I don't think "Madame Butterfly" is authetically Japanese either! Puccini
            would I'm sure be very startled at how often the lead is now sung by
            Japanese ladies who have learned Italian culture so effectively that they
            cannot be distinguished aurally from Italian singers (this is easier with
            composed musics I suppose but let's not go there), but I don't think that
            makes it Japanese.

            I'm sure this must be relevant to what we were discussing somehow or other.


            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Patrice Champarou
            ... Just like Chabrier s Espana (sorry, can t find the tilde), which popularised Spanish themes... but was that more remote from folk music than De Falla s
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
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              > It had honestly never occurred to me that Brahms's Hungarian dances were
              > anything other than authentic German/Austrian music or Bizet's Carmen
              > anything other than authentic French music.

              Just like Chabrier's "Espana" (sorry, can't find the tilde), which
              popularised Spanish themes... but was that more remote from folk music than
              De Falla's compositions? My friend Claude Worms, who is a worthy specialist
              of Flamenco music and the author of many transcriptions for guitar (├ęditions
              Combres, probably available in Soho street if the shop is still there) found
              out that many of the "falsetas" which became part of that rich non-written
              tradition originally came from written music, published by quite obscure
              piano composers. In a similar way, although most French enthusiast and
              critics keep insisting on considering Gypsy Swing as a deeply rooted
              tradition, there is not a single evidence of jazz being adopted by Gypsies
              before Reinhardt discovered and practiced what must be considered as
              American music.

              I'm not sure this is relevant to what you're discussing either, but it
              cannot be a coincidence if French has only one word to refer to both "folk"
              and "popular" music.
              Mainly a joke of course, but the dividing line between authentic tradition
              and commercial adaptations is not always that clear, and I'm more and more
              convinced that it is a big mistake to assume that folk inspiration always
              comes first. Take Handy's statements about the intuition he had when he
              composed the Memphis Blues, he never said he had borrowed the so-called
              "blue notes" from songs he actually heard in his childhood, and his
              definition of the pentatonic scale has nothing to do with anything African.
              He just says that "the transitional flat thirds and sevenths" he used were
              meant "TO SUGGEST the typical slurs of the negro voice". You've read me long
              enough, Howard, to guess that I am mainly interested in blues as a musical
              genre (as opposed to "a type of song", to quote Elijah Wald whose book
              should be read even by jazz specialists IMO) but it wouldn't bother me to
              gather clear evidence that even the so-called country blues tradition, which
              produced a true form of folk-art quite apart from jazz, mainly derived from
              popular urban (and instrumental) music. In other words, while most of the
              critics have been repeating for half a century that blues gave birth to
              jazz, I wonder "why not the reverse?"

              Wish this is "intellectual" enough ;)))

              Patrice
            • Howard Rye
              ... Whereas English did not have a term which covered both until vernacular music was invented (quite recently I suspect) to fill the perceived need! If you
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
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                on 31/3/06 12:54, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                > I'm not sure this is relevant to what you're discussing either, but it
                > cannot be a coincidence if French has only one word to refer to both "folk"
                > and "popular" music.

                Whereas English did not have a term which covered both until "vernacular
                music" was invented (quite recently I suspect) to fill the perceived need!

                If you work through B & G you will find some surprising examples of "folk"
                versions of popular and jazz numbers, especially amongst string bands. The
                Dallas String Band's Columbia 14410-D takes some beating from this
                standpoint (Chasin' Rainbows/I Used To Call her Baby).

                And then at his very next session Coley Jones recorded a version of Our
                Gudeman. But this material is all rendered into their own performance style.

                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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