Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [RedHotJazz] over-intellectualizing

Expand Messages
  • jkau779989@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mister_j@earthlink.net writes: Jeff, You re not alone. To enjoy a major talent like, for
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      mister_j@... writes:
      Jeff,

      You're not alone.

      To enjoy a major talent like, for example, Eddie Lang, shouldn't cause one
      to denigrate the talents of a lesser know player like, for example, Charles
      Margulis (trumpeter for Whiteman and many others). Lang, due to talent and fame,
      was certainly more well known. However, influence is another thing
      entirely. For example, Margulis, almost unknown to the general public, was a master
      of his instrument who literally wrote the book ("The Art Of Trumpet Playing").

      The thing about "black or white" didn't mean much to the musicians
      themselves. For example, Bix Beiderbecke jammed with many musicians of color but
      because of the rules adhered to by the recording industry of the time, those
      precious sessions are lost to history.

      As to"Artist" vs "Entertainer." I think some musicians may have been better
      showmen than others but that has little to do with their musical ability.
      Showmanship is a quality which stands apart from the music, in my opinion and is
      a whole, separate issue.

      Jp






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • heckman_michael
      It is certainly not my suggestion that we ban all words except wow and grump . It s fun to attempt to trace influences on performers. I remember well how
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        It is certainly not my suggestion that we ban all words except "wow"
        and "grump". It's fun to attempt to trace influences on performers.
        I remember well how much time Wynton Marsalis spent on the Ken Burns
        show explaining how influential Buddy Bolden was on Louis.
        His keen analyses have helped me appreciate Louis much more than I
        did when I thought Louis originated his own style. (But, perhaps
        Louis copied from the ODJB. After all, they did record first, and
        Louis is quoted as saying how much he liked their records at the
        time.) The debates about Emmett Hardy's influence on Bix are another
        rich mine for serious students of jazz. My appreciation of Bobby
        Hackett varies depending on what I have just read about his
        influences: were they Bix or Louis or a mixture and, if a mixture,
        in what percentages? Ditto Ruby Braff and Rex Stewart.
        Somebody please help me out: it's generally agreed that Fats Navarro
        was an artist. Was his uncle, Charlie Shavers, an artist or an
        entertainer? Did Fletcher Henderson lead a dance band, a hot dance
        band, or a jazz band? Did Bach write "Sheep May Safely Graze" or
        steal it from an earlier composer? How can I know what is valuable
        with all this uncertainty hovering about?
      • David Brown
        Louis did originate his own style, the most influential in Jazz History. He stands as greatest genius of our music. I fear I studiously avoid either the
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 29, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Louis did originate his own style, the most influential in Jazz History. He
          stands as greatest genius of our music.

          I fear I studiously avoid either the playing or 'criticism' of the Marsalis
          industry and had not realised that the Buddy Bolden cylinder had finally
          turned up.

          Louis' mentor was Joe Oliver and he also mentioned admiring Bunk. And no
          artist works in a vacuum and sure he would have been aware of the tradition
          of N.O. trumpet playing in which he grew up.

          Just how far his own originality had taken him from all previous styles is
          evident even in his first recordings.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey Jastram
          Jp: Precisely! I think an even better example is Lang vs. Condon. To my mind, Mr. Lang was the more musically talented but, sadly, is far less widely
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 30, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Jp:

            Precisely!

            I think an even better example is Lang vs. Condon. To my mind, Mr. Lang
            was the more musically talented but, sadly, is far less widely recognized
            than Eddie C. largely because of Mr. Condon's penchant for self-promotion.
            But, the strange irony is that, while E.C.'s instrumental virtuosity was
            somewhat limited, his superior talents at arranging, production, and
            forming excellent session groups have left us with some of the best
            recorded music of the "Chicago" style!

            So, perhaps, both are fine archetypes of that jazz maxim: "It Ain't What
            You Do, It's The Way That You Do It".

            Cheers,

            Jeff.



            ----- Original Message -----
            From:
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: 3/29/2006 4:05:11 AM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] over-intellectualizing



            In a message dated 3/28/2006 7:29:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            mister_j@... writes:
            Jeff,

            You're not alone.

            To enjoy a major talent like, for example, Eddie Lang, shouldn't cause one
            to denigrate the talents of a lesser know player like, for example, Charles

            Margulis (trumpeter for Whiteman and many others). Lang, due to talent and
            fame,
            was certainly more well known. However, influence is another thing
            entirely. For example, Margulis, almost unknown to the general public, was
            a master
            of his instrument who literally wrote the book ("The Art Of Trumpet
            Playing").

            The thing about "black or white" didn't mean much to the musicians
            themselves. For example, Bix Beiderbecke jammed with many musicians of
            color but
            because of the rules adhered to by the recording industry of the time,
            those
            precious sessions are lost to history.

            As to"Artist" vs "Entertainer." I think some musicians may have been better

            showmen than others but that has little to do with their musical ability.
            Showmanship is a quality which stands apart from the music, in my opinion
            and is
            a whole, separate issue.

            Jp






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Howard Rye
            My apologies but I can t locate which of you wrote the following, a comment sufficiently thought provoking that I have sat on it for couple of days in case I
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              My apologies but I can't locate which of you wrote the following, a comment
              sufficiently thought provoking that I have sat on it for couple of days in
              case I thought better of my original reaction. I haven't.

              > I don't know the origin of the quote, but Peter Schickele quotes Duke
              >> Ellington as saying "If it sounds good, it is good." Is Brahms
              >> criticized for writing Hungarian dances, or Bizet for writing Carmen?
              >> Are their works authentically Hungarian or Spanish?

              It had honestly never occurred to me that Brahms's Hungarian dances were
              anything other than authentic German/Austrian music or Bizet's Carmen
              anything other than authentic French music. Now I've thought about it a bit
              I still think this.

              I don't think "Madame Butterfly" is authetically Japanese either! Puccini
              would I'm sure be very startled at how often the lead is now sung by
              Japanese ladies who have learned Italian culture so effectively that they
              cannot be distinguished aurally from Italian singers (this is easier with
              composed musics I suppose but let's not go there), but I don't think that
              makes it Japanese.

              I'm sure this must be relevant to what we were discussing somehow or other.


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • Patrice Champarou
              ... Just like Chabrier s Espana (sorry, can t find the tilde), which popularised Spanish themes... but was that more remote from folk music than De Falla s
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                > It had honestly never occurred to me that Brahms's Hungarian dances were
                > anything other than authentic German/Austrian music or Bizet's Carmen
                > anything other than authentic French music.

                Just like Chabrier's "Espana" (sorry, can't find the tilde), which
                popularised Spanish themes... but was that more remote from folk music than
                De Falla's compositions? My friend Claude Worms, who is a worthy specialist
                of Flamenco music and the author of many transcriptions for guitar (├ęditions
                Combres, probably available in Soho street if the shop is still there) found
                out that many of the "falsetas" which became part of that rich non-written
                tradition originally came from written music, published by quite obscure
                piano composers. In a similar way, although most French enthusiast and
                critics keep insisting on considering Gypsy Swing as a deeply rooted
                tradition, there is not a single evidence of jazz being adopted by Gypsies
                before Reinhardt discovered and practiced what must be considered as
                American music.

                I'm not sure this is relevant to what you're discussing either, but it
                cannot be a coincidence if French has only one word to refer to both "folk"
                and "popular" music.
                Mainly a joke of course, but the dividing line between authentic tradition
                and commercial adaptations is not always that clear, and I'm more and more
                convinced that it is a big mistake to assume that folk inspiration always
                comes first. Take Handy's statements about the intuition he had when he
                composed the Memphis Blues, he never said he had borrowed the so-called
                "blue notes" from songs he actually heard in his childhood, and his
                definition of the pentatonic scale has nothing to do with anything African.
                He just says that "the transitional flat thirds and sevenths" he used were
                meant "TO SUGGEST the typical slurs of the negro voice". You've read me long
                enough, Howard, to guess that I am mainly interested in blues as a musical
                genre (as opposed to "a type of song", to quote Elijah Wald whose book
                should be read even by jazz specialists IMO) but it wouldn't bother me to
                gather clear evidence that even the so-called country blues tradition, which
                produced a true form of folk-art quite apart from jazz, mainly derived from
                popular urban (and instrumental) music. In other words, while most of the
                critics have been repeating for half a century that blues gave birth to
                jazz, I wonder "why not the reverse?"

                Wish this is "intellectual" enough ;)))

                Patrice
              • Howard Rye
                ... Whereas English did not have a term which covered both until vernacular music was invented (quite recently I suspect) to fill the perceived need! If you
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 31, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  on 31/3/06 12:54, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                  > I'm not sure this is relevant to what you're discussing either, but it
                  > cannot be a coincidence if French has only one word to refer to both "folk"
                  > and "popular" music.

                  Whereas English did not have a term which covered both until "vernacular
                  music" was invented (quite recently I suspect) to fill the perceived need!

                  If you work through B & G you will find some surprising examples of "folk"
                  versions of popular and jazz numbers, especially amongst string bands. The
                  Dallas String Band's Columbia 14410-D takes some beating from this
                  standpoint (Chasin' Rainbows/I Used To Call her Baby).

                  And then at his very next session Coley Jones recorded a version of Our
                  Gudeman. But this material is all rendered into their own performance style.

                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.