Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Scott Joplin CD

Expand Messages
  • Michael Rader
    Is this a Giants of Jazz compilation? Maybe a track list would provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since these are presumably
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 7, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.

      Best regards,

      Michael Rader



      RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@...>
      > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
      > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
      >
      >
      > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott Joplin Jazz
      > > Portraits CD 14518."
      > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a listing of 18
      > > songs with the years listed,
      > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
      > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with very
      > > little change in the dynamics.
      > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
      >
      > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference anywhere, maybe
      > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several cheap Joplin
      > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always suspected
      > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If I'm not
      > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by Joplin)
      > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's, which in
      > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much too fast
      > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered Joplin, and I
      > still enjoy.
      > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information, here I'm
      > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
      >
      > Patrice
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      ______________________________________________________________
      Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
      Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
    • David N. Lewis
      Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this kind. Or if you
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 8, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be
        sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this
        kind. Or if you listed the CD label/number someone might be able to
        track it down that way.

        European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
        though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
        acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
        "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
        Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
        Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
        though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925. In the real
        world the Duke didn't record it commercially, but at one point much
        later on he tried a new arrangement of it, and it can be heard
        trailing off at the end of a broadcast. As far as I know, that's the
        only recording the Duke made of it.

        Anyway, I never have been able to identify the source of the BYG
        recording.

        Uncle Dave

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@w...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would
        provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since
        these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is
        if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.
        >
        > Best regards,
        >
        > Michael Rader
        >
        >
        >
        > RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@y...>
        > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
        > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
        > >
        > >
        > > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott
        Joplin Jazz
        > > > Portraits CD 14518."
        > > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a
        listing of 18
        > > > songs with the years listed,
        > > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
        > > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with
        very
        > > > little change in the dynamics.
        > > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
        > >
        > > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference
        anywhere, maybe
        > > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several
        cheap Joplin
        > > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always
        suspected
        > > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If
        I'm not
        > > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by
        Joplin)
        > > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's,
        which in
        > > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much
        too fast
        > > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered
        Joplin, and I
        > > still enjoy.
        > > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information,
        here I'm
        > > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
        > >
        > > Patrice
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > ______________________________________________________________
        > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
        > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
        >
      • Mordechai Litzman
        I appreciate the efforts from the people that replied to my query. Here are the tracks (misspellings I assume reflect Italian, or poor proofreading): The
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 8, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          I appreciate the efforts from the people that replied to my query. Here are the tracks (misspellings I assume reflect Italian, or poor proofreading):
          The Chrisanthemum
          Scott Jolin's New Rag
          Something Doing
          Original Rags
          The Entertainer
          Maple Leaf Rag
          Sun Flower Slow Drag
          Elite Sincopations
          Eugenia
          Paragon Rag
          Euphonic Sounds
          Pineapple Rag
          Stoptime Rag
          Reflection Rag
          Cleopha
          Lily Queen
          Heliotrope Bouquet
          Country Club
          Original Rags, Maple Leaf Rag and Sun Flower Slow Drag sound like dubs from old scratchy 78s.
          Even though the title is Jazz Portaits - Scott Joplin, my computer reads King of Ragtime.

          "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
          Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be
          sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this
          kind. Or if you listed the CD label/number someone might be able to
          track it down that way.

          European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
          though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
          acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
          "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
          Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
          Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
          though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925. In the real
          world the Duke didn't record it commercially, but at one point much
          later on he tried a new arrangement of it, and it can be heard
          trailing off at the end of a broadcast. As far as I know, that's the
          only recording the Duke made of it.

          Anyway, I never have been able to identify the source of the BYG
          recording.

          Uncle Dave

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@w...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would
          provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since
          these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is
          if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.
          >
          > Best regards,
          >
          > Michael Rader
          >
          >
          >
          > RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@y...>
          > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
          > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
          > >
          > >
          > > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott
          Joplin Jazz
          > > > Portraits CD 14518."
          > > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a
          listing of 18
          > > > songs with the years listed,
          > > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
          > > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with
          very
          > > > little change in the dynamics.
          > > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
          > >
          > > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference
          anywhere, maybe
          > > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several
          cheap Joplin
          > > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always
          suspected
          > > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If
          I'm not
          > > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by
          Joplin)
          > > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's,
          which in
          > > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much
          too fast
          > > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered
          Joplin, and I
          > > still enjoy.
          > > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information,
          here I'm
          > > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
          > >
          > > Patrice
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > ______________________________________________________________
          > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
          > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
          >






          ---------------------------------
          YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


          Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          ---------------------------------






          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
          Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Rader
          The BYG Uncle Dave mentioned would usually be stolen from Biograph, Riverside or London. The noise Mordechai mentions could equally be from LPs. I ve put the
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 8, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            The BYG Uncle Dave mentioned would usually be stolen from Biograph, Riverside or London. The noise Mordechai mentions could equally be from LPs. I've put the details for the rolls against Moredchai's listing. As you can see, dates are only given for two. The Connorized plus Maple Leaf Rag could be actually recorded by Joplin, c. 1916.

            Cheers
            Michael Rader
            >
            > I appreciate the efforts from the people that replied to my query. Here are the tracks (misspellings I assume reflect Italian, or poor proofreading):
            > The Chrisanthemum (Classics of Ragtime Roll 0023)
            > Scott Jolin's New Rag (CofR 0121)
            > Something Doing(Connorized 10265, April 1916)
            > Original Rags(Chase and Baker Special Music 147 - a 65 note roll)
            > The Entertainer (CofR0108)
            > Maple Leaf Rag(Columbia Instrumental 95101) or Connorized 10265, April 1916
            > Sun Flower Slow Drag (Universal 8479)
            > Elite Sincopations( CofR 0015)
            > Eugenia (CofR0042)
            > Paragon Rag (CofR0024)
            > Euphonic Sounds - part of Universal Rag Medley No. 6??
            > Pineapple Rag (CofR 0060 or as above)
            > Stoptime Rag (QRS 30786)
            > Reflection Rag(CofR0016)
            > Cleopha (CofR0066)
            > Lily Queen (CofR0020)
            > Heliotrope Bouquet (CofR 0022)
            > Country Club (CofR0043)
            > Original Rags, Maple Leaf Rag and Sun Flower Slow Drag sound like dubs from old scratchy 78s.
            > Even though the title is Jazz Portaits - Scott Joplin, my computer reads King of Ragtime.
            >
            > "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
            > Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be
            > sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this
            > kind. Or if you listed the CD label/number someone might be able to
            > track it down that way.
            >
            > European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
            > though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
            > acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
            > "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
            > Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
            > Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
            > though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925. In the real
            > world the Duke didn't record it commercially, but at one point much
            > later on he tried a new arrangement of it, and it can be heard
            > trailing off at the end of a broadcast. As far as I know, that's the
            > only recording the Duke made of it.
            >
            > Anyway, I never have been able to identify the source of the BYG
            > recording.
            >
            > Uncle Dave
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@w...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would
            > provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since
            > these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is
            > if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.
            > >
            > > Best regards,
            > >
            > > Michael Rader
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@y...>
            > > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
            > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott
            > Joplin Jazz
            > > > > Portraits CD 14518."
            > > > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a
            > listing of 18
            > > > > songs with the years listed,
            > > > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
            > > > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with
            > very
            > > > > little change in the dynamics.
            > > > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
            > > >
            > > > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference
            > anywhere, maybe
            > > > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several
            > cheap Joplin
            > > > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always
            > suspected
            > > > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If
            > I'm not
            > > > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by
            > Joplin)
            > > > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's,
            > which in
            > > > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much
            > too fast
            > > > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered
            > Joplin, and I
            > > > still enjoy.
            > > > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information,
            > here I'm
            > > > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
            > > >
            > > > Patrice
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ______________________________________________________________
            > > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
            > > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >
            > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
            > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            ______________________________________________________________
            Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
            Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
          • Mordechai Litzman
            Thanks Michael. On the CD are dates by the year for each composition, but they range from 1898 to 1917 and I thought that these dates reflect when these tunes
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 8, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks Michael. On the CD are dates by the year for each composition, but they range from 1898 to 1917 and I thought that these dates reflect when these tunes were composed. (There is no tune listed for 1916.)
              Pineapple Rag has a playing time of 5 minutes. My impression was that piano rolls came in 2 and 4 minute capacities, and that is why I wondered if this CD consists of piano rolls, although most compositions on this CD play between 3 and 4 minutes.

              Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:

              The BYG Uncle Dave mentioned would usually be stolen from Biograph, Riverside or London. The noise Mordechai mentions could equally be from LPs. I've put the details for the rolls against Moredchai's listing. As you can see, dates are only given for two. The Connorized plus Maple Leaf Rag could be actually recorded by Joplin, c. 1916.

              Cheers
              Michael Rader
              >
              > I appreciate the efforts from the people that replied to my query. Here are the tracks (misspellings I assume reflect Italian, or poor proofreading):
              > The Chrisanthemum (Classics of Ragtime Roll 0023)
              > Scott Jolin's New Rag (CofR 0121)
              > Something Doing(Connorized 10265, April 1916)
              > Original Rags(Chase and Baker Special Music 147 - a 65 note roll)
              > The Entertainer (CofR0108)
              > Maple Leaf Rag(Columbia Instrumental 95101) or Connorized 10265, April 1916
              > Sun Flower Slow Drag (Universal 8479)
              > Elite Sincopations( CofR 0015)
              > Eugenia (CofR0042)
              > Paragon Rag (CofR0024)
              > Euphonic Sounds - part of Universal Rag Medley No. 6??
              > Pineapple Rag (CofR 0060 or as above)
              > Stoptime Rag (QRS 30786)
              > Reflection Rag(CofR0016)
              > Cleopha (CofR0066)
              > Lily Queen (CofR0020)
              > Heliotrope Bouquet (CofR 0022)
              > Country Club (CofR0043)
              > Original Rags, Maple Leaf Rag and Sun Flower Slow Drag sound like dubs from old scratchy 78s.
              > Even though the title is Jazz Portaits - Scott Joplin, my computer reads King of Ragtime.
              >
              > "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
              > Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be
              > sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this
              > kind. Or if you listed the CD label/number someone might be able to
              > track it down that way.
              >
              > European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
              > though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
              > acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
              > "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
              > Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
              > Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
              > though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925. In the real
              > world the Duke didn't record it commercially, but at one point much
              > later on he tried a new arrangement of it, and it can be heard
              > trailing off at the end of a broadcast. As far as I know, that's the
              > only recording the Duke made of it.
              >
              > Anyway, I never have been able to identify the source of the BYG
              > recording.
              >
              > Uncle Dave
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@w...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would
              > provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since
              > these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is
              > if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.
              > >
              > > Best regards,
              > >
              > > Michael Rader
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@y...>
              > > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
              > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott
              > Joplin Jazz
              > > > > Portraits CD 14518."
              > > > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a
              > listing of 18
              > > > > songs with the years listed,
              > > > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
              > > > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with
              > very
              > > > > little change in the dynamics.
              > > > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
              > > >
              > > > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference
              > anywhere, maybe
              > > > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several
              > cheap Joplin
              > > > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always
              > suspected
              > > > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If
              > I'm not
              > > > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by
              > Joplin)
              > > > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's,
              > which in
              > > > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much
              > too fast
              > > > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered
              > Joplin, and I
              > > > still enjoy.
              > > > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information,
              > here I'm
              > > > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
              > > >
              > > > Patrice
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ______________________________________________________________
              > > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
              > > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
              > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ______________________________________________________________
              Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
              Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193



              SPONSORED LINKS
              Genres of music Jazz music Music genres

              ---------------------------------
              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


              Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              ---------------------------------






              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Photos
              Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Rader
              Mordechai, As I said, the liner notes to the Biograph LPs give only a few recording dates, but they also give the copyright registration dates and publishers.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 8, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Mordechai,

                As I said, the liner notes to the Biograph LPs give only a few recording dates, but they also give the copyright registration dates and publishers. If any of the rolls were recorded by Joplin, they would be during his decline, and his reputation as a pianist wasn't too good anyway. I have to leave on a business trip in the early hours of tomorrow (5 hours from now), so I have little time to thoroughly read the liners. Maybe more when I return on Thursday.

                All the best,
                Michael

                > Thanks Michael. On the CD are dates by the year for each composition, but they range from 1898 to 1917 and I thought that these dates reflect when these tunes were composed. (There is no tune listed for 1916.)
                > Pineapple Rag has a playing time of 5 minutes. My impression was that piano rolls came in 2 and 4 minute capacities, and that is why I wondered if this CD consists of piano rolls, although most compositions on this CD play between 3 and 4 minutes.
                >
                > Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                >
                > The BYG Uncle Dave mentioned would usually be stolen from Biograph, Riverside or London. The noise Mordechai mentions could equally be from LPs. I've put the details for the rolls against Moredchai's listing. As you can see, dates are only given for two. The Connorized plus Maple Leaf Rag could be actually recorded by Joplin, c. 1916.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Michael Rader
                > >
                > > I appreciate the efforts from the people that replied to my query. Here are the tracks (misspellings I assume reflect Italian, or poor proofreading):
                > > The Chrisanthemum (Classics of Ragtime Roll 0023)
                > > Scott Jolin's New Rag (CofR 0121)
                > > Something Doing(Connorized 10265, April 1916)
                > > Original Rags(Chase and Baker Special Music 147 - a 65 note roll)
                > > The Entertainer (CofR0108)
                > > Maple Leaf Rag(Columbia Instrumental 95101) or Connorized 10265, April 1916
                > > Sun Flower Slow Drag (Universal 8479)
                > > Elite Sincopations( CofR 0015)
                > > Eugenia (CofR0042)
                > > Paragon Rag (CofR0024)
                > > Euphonic Sounds - part of Universal Rag Medley No. 6??
                > > Pineapple Rag (CofR 0060 or as above)
                > > Stoptime Rag (QRS 30786)
                > > Reflection Rag(CofR0016)
                > > Cleopha (CofR0066)
                > > Lily Queen (CofR0020)
                > > Heliotrope Bouquet (CofR 0022)
                > > Country Club (CofR0043)
                > > Original Rags, Maple Leaf Rag and Sun Flower Slow Drag sound like dubs from old scratchy 78s.
                > > Even though the title is Jazz Portaits - Scott Joplin, my computer reads King of Ragtime.
                > >
                > > "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
                > > Yes, a track listing would be necessary in this case. It could also be
                > > sourced from a BYG album that came out in the 70s that was of this
                > > kind. Or if you listed the CD label/number someone might be able to
                > > track it down that way.
                > >
                > > European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
                > > though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
                > > acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
                > > "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
                > > Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
                > > Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
                > > though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925. In the real
                > > world the Duke didn't record it commercially, but at one point much
                > > later on he tried a new arrangement of it, and it can be heard
                > > trailing off at the end of a broadcast. As far as I know, that's the
                > > only recording the Duke made of it.
                > >
                > > Anyway, I never have been able to identify the source of the BYG
                > > recording.
                > >
                > > Uncle Dave
                > >
                > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@w...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Is this a "Giants of Jazz" compilation? Maybe a track list would
                > > provide clues. I rather doubt that 78-l would help much further, since
                > > these are presumably recordings of piano rolls. The only question is
                > > if the source is the Biograph LPs or the London/Riversides.
                > > >
                > > > Best regards,
                > > >
                > > > Michael Rader
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 06.01.06 23:41:40:
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: "Mordechai Litzman" <folke613@y...>
                > > > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:58 AM
                > > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Scott Joplin CD
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > Found an Italian CD in my collection from 1993 entitled "Scott
                > > Joplin Jazz
                > > > > > Portraits CD 14518."
                > > > > > There is absolutely no information on the cover except for a
                > > listing of 18
                > > > > > songs with the years listed,
                > > > > > from 1898-1910. Playing time ranges from 2 '53" to
                > > > > > 4 '59". The sound quality is varied but fair to very poor with
                > > very
                > > > > > little change in the dynamics.
                > > > > > Is this a collection of piano rolls ?
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm sorry no-one had a clue, I could not find the reference
                > > anywhere, maybe
                > > > > googling the list of titles would help. I came across several
                > > cheap Joplin
                > > > > collections before the Biograph CD's were issued, and I always
                > > suspected
                > > > > they sounded like the old Riverside LP (which I still have). If
                > > I'm not
                > > > > mistaken, these were actual piano-rolls (including four played by
                > > Joplin)
                > > > > which had been transferred onto some other media - probably 78's,
                > > which in
                > > > > turn had been reissued on LP's. Poor equalization, and played much
                > > too fast
                > > > > according to specialists... but that's the way I discovered
                > > Joplin, and I
                > > > > still enjoy.
                > > > > Maybe someone on the 78-L forum could provide more information,
                > > here I'm
                > > > > just relying on the vague memory of something I read.
                > > > >
                > > > > Patrice
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ______________________________________________________________
                > > > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
                > > > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >
                > >
                > > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
                > > Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > ______________________________________________________________
                > Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
                > Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
                > Genres of music Jazz music Music genres
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Photos
                > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                __________________________________________________________________________
                Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsstarkeren E-Mail-Postfach!
                Mehr Infos unter http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021131
              • Howard Rye
                ... The origin and provenance of this scam is not an appropriate subject for discussion in a public group, but it did not originate in Europe! It comes from a
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  on 8/1/06 14:15, David N. Lewis at udtv@... wrote:

                  > European issues are notorious for crediting roll performances as
                  > though they are actual recordings. On a BYG record there is a noisy
                  > acetate dub of a some kind of street piano playing Duke Ellington's
                  > "Jig Walk" with a funny little snare attached. It is credited to "Duke
                  > Ellington." "Jig Walk" is an early composition that predates the
                  > Duke's bandleading career, and the Duke didn't think much of it, even
                  > though it became a very popular tune in Europe by 1925.

                  The origin and provenance of this scam is not an appropriate subject for
                  discussion in a public group, but it did not originate in Europe! It comes
                  from a U.S. 78. I think it is fairly well established that it has nothing to
                  do with Duke (except the composition) but is a nickelodeon roll made for
                  some kind of fairground instrument. The added surface noise was, well, added
                  (in the interests of authenticity, but not by Byg).


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                • Patrice Champarou
                  ... I m a bit puzzled here because I had always thought it was a genuine recording, do you know where the indications Paramount 607 and prob. June 1926
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > The origin and provenance of this scam is not an appropriate subject for
                    > discussion in a public group, but it did not originate in Europe! It comes
                    > from a U.S. 78. I think it is fairly well established that it has nothing
                    > to
                    > do with Duke (except the composition) but is a nickelodeon roll made for
                    > some kind of fairground instrument. The added surface noise was, well,
                    > added
                    > (in the interests of authenticity, but not by Byg).

                    I'm a bit puzzled here because I had always thought it was a genuine
                    recording, do you know where the indications "Paramount 607" and "prob. June
                    1926" come from? It is indeed on the French "Masters of jazz" CD (MJCD 8 -
                    Duke Ellington volume 1) and it had never occured to my poor ears that it
                    could be a fake (much less than several presumed 1924-26 recordings by
                    Lawrence Gellert, but this should belong to some other group ;)

                    Patrice
                  • Howard Rye
                    ... Yes, I do know but I ve already said I am not going to say here. Prob. June 1926 is just made up. I don t have time at the moment but I will try to put
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      on 10/1/06 12:14, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                      >> The origin and provenance of this scam is not an appropriate subject for
                      >> discussion in a public group, but it did not originate in Europe! It comes
                      >> from a U.S. 78. I think it is fairly well established that it has nothing
                      >> to
                      >> do with Duke (except the composition) but is a nickelodeon roll made for
                      >> some kind of fairground instrument. The added surface noise was, well,
                      >> added
                      >> (in the interests of authenticity, but not by Byg).
                      >
                      > I'm a bit puzzled here because I had always thought it was a genuine
                      > recording, do you know where the indications "Paramount 607" and "prob. June
                      > 1926" come from? It is indeed on the French "Masters of jazz" CD (MJCD 8 -
                      > Duke Ellington volume 1) and it had never occured to my poor ears that it
                      > could be a fake (much less than several presumed 1924-26 recordings by
                      > Lawrence Gellert, but this should belong to some other group ;)

                      Yes, I do know but I've already said I am not going to say here. "Prob. June
                      1926" is just made up. I don't have time at the moment but I will try to put
                      together a list of references.

                      Only the person responsible for misrepresenting this as an Ellington
                      recording knew what exactly it is. Repeated efforts to persuade him to say,
                      given that so much time had elapsed and he was no longer in business, fell
                      on deaf ears and he carried the secret of its ultimate provenance to the
                      grave. Certainly no one else has ever seen a copy of whatever it is!

                      It is just possible he never knew and that the scam goes back one stage
                      further to persons unknown. The nickelodeon roll, which is what I am
                      convinced that it is, is apparently being played on the equipment for which
                      it is designed, which cannot have been common in the late 40s. So it may be
                      that the 78 is taken from a supplied acetate which was really represented as
                      a recording of a piano roll with drum accompaniment. There have been people
                      capable of believing that the nickelodeon drum attachment heard is actually
                      a percussionist!

                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    • Howard Rye
                      ... And I should have added to my previous contribution that there are some people who believe that this is QRS 3565 by J. Lawrence Cook (released August 1926)
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 10, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        on 10/1/06 12:14, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                        >> The origin and provenance of this scam is not an appropriate subject for
                        >> discussion in a public group, but it did not originate in Europe! It comes
                        >> from a U.S. 78. I think it is fairly well established that it has nothing
                        >> to
                        >> do with Duke (except the composition) but is a nickelodeon roll made for
                        >> some kind of fairground instrument. The added surface noise was, well,
                        >> added
                        >> (in the interests of authenticity, but not by Byg).
                        >
                        > I'm a bit puzzled here because I had always thought it was a genuine
                        > recording, do you know where the indications "Paramount 607" and "prob. June
                        > 1926" come from? It is indeed on the French "Masters of jazz" CD (MJCD 8 -
                        > Duke Ellington volume 1) and it had never occured to my poor ears that it
                        > could be a fake (much less than several presumed 1924-26 recordings by
                        > Lawrence Gellert, but this should belong to some other group ;)
                        >
                        > Patrice
                        >
                        And I should have added to my previous contribution that there are some
                        people who believe that this is QRS 3565 by J. Lawrence Cook (released
                        August 1926) played on some piece of equipment with a drum attachment.

                        However, I have never encountered any claim to have actually compared them.



                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        howard@...
                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.