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Re: Bailey's Lucky Seven 'Pay Day Blues'

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  • robertgreenwood_54uk
    My old friend, Mr Brown, flatters me. I claim no expert knowledge, merely an undying enthusiasm. All I can offer the group at the moment is the observation
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 14, 2004
      My old friend, Mr Brown, flatters me. I claim no expert knowledge,
      merely an undying enthusiasm. All I can offer the group at the moment
      is the observation that David Jones, who recorded in New Orleans for
      Victor in 1929 as co-leader, with trumpeter Lee Collins, of the
      Jones/Collins Astoria Hot 8 has, to my ears, a very pleasant, if
      hardly earth-shattering, tenor saxophone style betraying no Hawkins
      influence whatsoever. David (Brown, that is, not Jones!) is right,
      though, about saxophones being used extensively in New Orleans right
      from the off. The notion (derived from revivalist/traditionalist
      ideology) that saxophones have no place in New Orleans jazz has long
      been discredited and need not detain us further. The Jones/Collins
      sides also feature the excellent alto saxophone playing of Theodore
      Purnell, brother of pianist Alton Purnell. It's a shame that Theodore
      made no further recordings.
      Robert G.
    • David N. Lewis
      Another early player who is quite well versed in the slap-tongue is Stump Evans, who plays on the Erskine Tate Vendome Orchestra sides that also feature
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 14, 2004
        Another early player who is quite well versed in the slap-tongue is Stump Evans, who
        plays on the Erskine Tate Vendome Orchestra sides that also feature armstrong. He
        died in 1928,

        The Six Brown Brothers employed quite a bit of slap tongue. Hawkins cited this group
        as being the one motivating him to take up the sax in the first place, and they seem
        to have influenced Jazz saxophonists of all kinds generally.

        Uncle Dave Lewis

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@y...> wrote:
        > Thanks Scott, yes indeed nice playing on 'Hallelujah'. My source, 'Jazz
        > Directory' states Bushell but presumably, as he does not appear on RHJ
        > collective personnel, this has been superseded ? However, this is alto and I
        > think it is accepted that an alto style was in place before tenor. This alto
        > style was legato based, a style not transferring well to tenor where it
        > produced a bland mooing result. The tenor on 'Pay Day' does much better than
        > that.
        >
        > Slapping was I think fashionably present on all saxes at one time but suits
        > the tenor better as in the lower register it can produce a percussive drone
        > effect, not unpleasant. I stress again that I am not, unlike you, an expert
        > in this area but I think that at one time a slap interlude might be
        > introduced in a performance by all saxes and clts. but it was just that, an
        > interlude, not integrated in the larger performance which would be legato.
        >
        > Now I grew up on the Received Opinion 'No tenor style before Hawkins/Hawkins
        > Father of tenor'. The first generation of jazz critics came to the music in
        > the 30s with hindsight, with Hawkins already established also the 'novelty'
        > aspects of the previous style would not have appealed to these intellectuals
        > also even worse, I reckon it was probably white originated. Bigard,
        > regarded as the guvner black tenor in Chicago, is playing much better jazz
        > tenor in 1927 with the Dixie Syncopators than Hawkins with Henderson. Bigard
        > well integrates slapping with more legato playing a in a fully valid and
        > uniquely tenor style.
        >
        > The man on 'Pay Day' I hear as in this tradition and I still seek the origin
        > of this style.
        >
        > There was ,of course, a continuing use of the sax in New Orleans from
        > earliest times and I wonder what wider influence this has had. Maybe Mr
        > Greenwood, renowned expert in this area could enlighten ?
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Happy Christmas All. Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 25 11:39 PM
          Happy Christmas All.

          Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
          accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
          assume, E.Coast --stylist.

          I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
          Hounds'.

          Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
          available ?


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Howard Rye
          ... Only that the first Original Jazz Hounds session (14 July 1925) was contracted by Columbia from Thornton G. Brown. This looks like a Perry Bradford group
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 26 2:40 AM
            on 26/12/04 7:39, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

            > Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
            > accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
            > assume, E.Coast --stylist.
            >
            > I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
            > Hounds'.
            >
            > Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
            > available ?

            Only that the first Original Jazz Hounds session (14 July 1925) was
            contracted by Columbia from Thornton G. Brown. This looks like a Perry
            Bradford group but there are reportedly no vocals on this first session,
            though this has never been corrected in successive editions of Rust.

            The solution is found in a news item in the Pittsburgh Courier of 5
            September 1925, datelined Providence, RI, 8 September (which is clever you
            must admit), relating that Thornton G. Brown, former cornetist with Deppe's
            Syncopators, is directing the Original Jazz Hounds under the management of
            Perry Bradford. Brown and most of the band members were said to be touring
            the Columbia Burlesque Circuit with a show called 7-11.

            On 17 July 1926 the Baltimore Afro-American reports him in Lorraine
            Faulkner's band touting with Ethel Waters Vanities. In an advert from the
            New York Lafayette (New York Age, 18 September 1926) he gets separate and
            bizarre billing: Lorraine Faulkner's Orchestra, with Thornton Brown, Former
            Cornetist. In October he was still touring with Ethel but now as a member of
            Will Marion Cook's Philahrmonic Orchestra, described as "Thornton Brown, the
            jazz cornetist."

            These seem to be the only references in the Hoffman index. So we have a kind
            of one and a half year snapshot of a career that presumably lasted a mite
            longer.

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Michael Rader
            A rather belated response to this one, I m afraid. The Original Jazz Hounds were available on a VJM LP with restoration work by John RT Davies (unusually for
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
              A rather belated response to this one, I'm afraid.

              The Original Jazz Hounds were available on a VJM LP with restoration work by John RT Davies (unusually for the label). Since LPs are rather out of favour, you might be able to pick this one up.

              The Original Jazz Hounds were a Perry Bradford related group, so this is a possible candidate for the Timeless Perry Bradford CD which should be out any minute now (a picture of the cover was in the Timeless advert in Vintage Jazz Mart).

              Frog also had a Perry Bradford CD scheduled as one of their next releases, but since David French is no longer among us, it's difficult to ascertain whether it will see the light of day - maybe Howard Rye would know.

              Best regards,

              Michael Rader
              >
              > Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
              > accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
              > assume, E.Coast --stylist.
              >
              > I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
              > Hounds'.
              >
              > Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
              > available ?
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • David Brown
              Thanks Michael. I live Germany, as your email address suggests you do too, so some distance away from source of old VJM vinyl. Therefore I await the Timeless
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
                Thanks Michael.

                I live Germany, as your email address suggests you do too, so some distance
                away from source of old VJM vinyl. Therefore I await the Timeless with hope.

                Do you have the VJM ? If so how do you rate Brown and are his influences or
                origins detectable ?

                Dave


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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