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Feelin' Lucky Punk? - 5 New Songs By Bailey's Lucky Seven

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  • Scott Alexander
    Bailey s Lucky Seven http://www.redhotjazz.com/lucky7.html Poor Little Me - This is the best of the lot. It s pretty hot tune and has a bit of that good old
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 12, 2004
      Bailey's Lucky Seven
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/lucky7.html

      "Poor Little Me" - This is the best of the lot. It's pretty hot tune and has
      a bit of that good old New Orleans flavor
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/lucky7/poorlittleme.ram
      "Oh! Min - What the hell is this song about?
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/lucky7/ohmin.ram
      "Don't Leave Me Mammy"
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/lucky7/dontleavememammy.ram
      "Pay Day Blues"
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/lucky7/paydayblues.ram
      "Gypsy Lady"
      http://www.redhotjazz.com/Songs/lucky7/gypsylady.ram


      Scott Alexander
      The Red Hot Jazz Archive
      www.redhotjazz.com
    • David Brown
      I ll introduce myself, Dave, 44 years listening to The Music, although this area is not my speciality. Many thanks to Scott Alexander for the clips and THE RED
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
        I'll introduce myself, Dave, 44 years listening to The Music, although this
        area is not my speciality.

        Many thanks to Scott Alexander for the clips and THE RED HOT ARCHIVE, much
        appreciated and consulted.

        The above track, by a band I do not know, is very interesting, not least for
        the early example of Tenor Saxophone style. Now who is the player, the
        collective RHJ Archive personnel is not too much help ?

        Can anyone out there point to the origins of this particular style and
        earlier instances on record.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Patrice Champarou
        Hi David I m not sure this will be of any help, I had a look at Rust s discography and after listening to several tracks, it seems that the tenor (apparently a
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
          Hi David

          I'm not sure this will be of any help, I had a look at Rust's discography
          and after listening to several tracks, it seems that the tenor (apparently a
          C-melody sax) can only be heard on tracks in which Benny Krueger joins the
          band (Wet Yo' Thumb, When June Comes Along, Firts, Last and Always...)
          This might be a coincidence, the other (and more regular) sax player was
          called Loring McMurray. Unfortunately Rust never mentions a tenor sax, only
          alto, I thought I had recognised Krueger's alto playing as more staccato
          (with fast runs reminiscent of Frankie Trumbauer) but this is just a
          guessing, it would take more careful listening.

          Patrice




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
          To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "Rob" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:05 AM
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Bailey's Lucky Seven 'Pay Day Blues'


          >
          > I'll introduce myself, Dave, 44 years listening to The Music, although
          > this
          > area is not my speciality.
          >
          > Many thanks to Scott Alexander for the clips and THE RED HOT ARCHIVE, much
          > appreciated and consulted.
          >
          > The above track, by a band I do not know, is very interesting, not least
          > for
          > the early example of Tenor Saxophone style. Now who is the player, the
          > collective RHJ Archive personnel is not too much help ?
          >
          > Can anyone out there point to the origins of this particular style and
          > earlier instances on record.
        • David Brown
          Patrice, Hi Thanks. Interesting. But to me that s tenor although the slap technique does muddy it a bit. There is also, earlier on the track, some alto, which
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
            Patrice, Hi

            Thanks. Interesting. But to me that's tenor although the slap technique does
            muddy it a bit. There is also, earlier on the track, some alto, which could
            just be C-mel.

            McMurray I thought of but Sudhalter mentions only his alto, putting him in
            the frame with Tram, no mention of him ever playing tenor.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Patrice Champarou
            ... According to Rust he did, with the Broadway Syncopators (never heard) and the Original Memphis Five. I don t play any kind of horn, so I trust your ears
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
              > McMurray I thought of but Sudhalter mentions only his alto, putting him
              > in
              > the frame with Tram, no mention of him ever playing tenor.

              According to Rust he did, with the Broadway Syncopators (never heard) and
              the Original Memphis Five.
              I don't play any kind of horn, so I trust your ears but I think I've found
              some evidence :
              http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/om5/lonesome.ram
              http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/om5/longing.ram
              ... which incidentally seem to prove I was wrong about Krueger, unless they
              shared the same style ;)

              P.
            • David Brown
              Patrice Sorry, day job gets in way of serious matters , so cursory response only. Poor quality of online sound, and orig. Banner I suspect, is another handicap
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                Patrice

                Sorry, day job gets in way of serious matters , so cursory response only.

                Poor quality of online sound, and orig. Banner I suspect, is another
                handicap but 'Lonesome Mama' does offer a tenor solo, and earlier an alt or
                C-mel solo. However the tenor does not sound like the one on 'Pay Day' who
                is rougher and stomps more and slaps.

                'Those longing' at first hearing, no tenor although an alto/c-mel who does
                have a short slap interlude.

                So inconclusive at the moment. I'll return when I can research further.
                Meanwhile we may get other contributions.

                No man, I'm just a listener too.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pavel Pitra
                Hi David and Patrice and all, I won t help you concerning the identity of the tenor player (to me there is no doubt that it s a tenor sax, at least not alto or
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                  Hi David and Patrice and all,

                  I won't help you concerning the identity of the tenor player (to me
                  there is no doubt that it's a tenor sax, at least not alto or
                  C-melody, but I'm just a amateur listener), but this discussion
                  brings me to another question that I had in my head since some time:

                  Are there any (as complete as possible) reissues of the Bailey's
                  Lucky 7? I first discovered this great band on the RHJ website and
                  apart from one song on the Gennett Records Greatest Hits, Vol. 2 CD
                  and another one on the Cliff Edwards Take Two CD I never found them
                  on CDs...

                  Thanks!

                  All the best, Pavel
                  --
                  -----------------------
                  Pavel PITRA
                  Geosciences Rennes email: Pavel.Pitra@...
                  Université de Rennes 1 tel: (++33) 2.23.23.65.06
                  Campus de Beaulieu - Bat. 15 fax: (++33) 2.23.23.56.80
                  F - 35 042 RENNES CEDEX
                  FRANCE http://www.geosciences.univ-rennes1.fr/ch/pitra/pitra.htm
                • Scott Alexander
                  ... No I don t think so.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                    >Are there any (as complete as possible) reissues of the Bailey's Lucky 7?

                    No I don't think so.
                  • David Brown
                    McMurray is listed in Lord --which I do not have -- clt,alt,sop,ten, rec.dates 1922-30. The sleeve notes to the Timeless Ladds -- which I also do not have---
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                      McMurray is listed in Lord --which I do not have -- clt,alt,sop,ten,
                      rec.dates 1922-30.

                      The sleeve notes to the Timeless Ladds -- which I also do not have--- state
                      he died 1923.

                      There was a McMurray thread Bixography Discussion group this year but it
                      yields little, except the death date as above.

                      I can only find Krueger listed as alto in all sources I have.

                      For 1923 this is good tenor, coherent with substantial tone and slap
                      tonguing well integrated and not excessive, rhythmic if not exactly
                      swinging. Can anyone find an earlier example of tenor of such quality or
                      the source of this style ?

                      And, of course, who is it ?


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Scott Alexander
                      ... Johnny Dunn s Original Jazz Hounds 1921-1923 records have some very high quality saxophone parts on them: http://www.redhotjazz.com/jazzhounds.html
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                        > For 1923 this is good tenor, coherent with substantial tone and slap
                        > tonguing well integrated and not excessive, rhythmic if not exactly
                        > swinging. Can anyone find an earlier example of tenor of such quality or
                        > the source of this style ?

                        Johnny Dunn's Original Jazz Hounds 1921-1923 records have some very high
                        quality saxophone parts on them:
                        http://www.redhotjazz.com/jazzhounds.html

                        Hallelujah Blues is my favorite:
                        http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/dunn/Hallelujah.ram

                        or were you refering to the slap tongue style of playing?

                        Scott Alexander
                        The Red Hot Jazz Archive
                        www.redhotjazz.com
                      • David Brown
                        Thanks Scott, yes indeed nice playing on Hallelujah . My source, Jazz Directory states Bushell but presumably, as he does not appear on RHJ collective
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 13, 2004
                          Thanks Scott, yes indeed nice playing on 'Hallelujah'. My source, 'Jazz
                          Directory' states Bushell but presumably, as he does not appear on RHJ
                          collective personnel, this has been superseded ? However, this is alto and I
                          think it is accepted that an alto style was in place before tenor. This alto
                          style was legato based, a style not transferring well to tenor where it
                          produced a bland mooing result. The tenor on 'Pay Day' does much better than
                          that.

                          Slapping was I think fashionably present on all saxes at one time but suits
                          the tenor better as in the lower register it can produce a percussive drone
                          effect, not unpleasant. I stress again that I am not, unlike you, an expert
                          in this area but I think that at one time a slap interlude might be
                          introduced in a performance by all saxes and clts. but it was just that, an
                          interlude, not integrated in the larger performance which would be legato.

                          Now I grew up on the Received Opinion 'No tenor style before Hawkins/Hawkins
                          Father of tenor'. The first generation of jazz critics came to the music in
                          the 30s with hindsight, with Hawkins already established also the 'novelty'
                          aspects of the previous style would not have appealed to these intellectuals
                          also even worse, I reckon it was probably white originated. Bigard,
                          regarded as the guvner black tenor in Chicago, is playing much better jazz
                          tenor in 1927 with the Dixie Syncopators than Hawkins with Henderson. Bigard
                          well integrates slapping with more legato playing a in a fully valid and
                          uniquely tenor style.

                          The man on 'Pay Day' I hear as in this tradition and I still seek the origin
                          of this style.

                          There was ,of course, a continuing use of the sax in New Orleans from
                          earliest times and I wonder what wider influence this has had. Maybe Mr
                          Greenwood, renowned expert in this area could enlighten ?


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • robertgreenwood_54uk
                          My old friend, Mr Brown, flatters me. I claim no expert knowledge, merely an undying enthusiasm. All I can offer the group at the moment is the observation
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 14, 2004
                            My old friend, Mr Brown, flatters me. I claim no expert knowledge,
                            merely an undying enthusiasm. All I can offer the group at the moment
                            is the observation that David Jones, who recorded in New Orleans for
                            Victor in 1929 as co-leader, with trumpeter Lee Collins, of the
                            Jones/Collins Astoria Hot 8 has, to my ears, a very pleasant, if
                            hardly earth-shattering, tenor saxophone style betraying no Hawkins
                            influence whatsoever. David (Brown, that is, not Jones!) is right,
                            though, about saxophones being used extensively in New Orleans right
                            from the off. The notion (derived from revivalist/traditionalist
                            ideology) that saxophones have no place in New Orleans jazz has long
                            been discredited and need not detain us further. The Jones/Collins
                            sides also feature the excellent alto saxophone playing of Theodore
                            Purnell, brother of pianist Alton Purnell. It's a shame that Theodore
                            made no further recordings.
                            Robert G.
                          • David N. Lewis
                            Another early player who is quite well versed in the slap-tongue is Stump Evans, who plays on the Erskine Tate Vendome Orchestra sides that also feature
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 14, 2004
                              Another early player who is quite well versed in the slap-tongue is Stump Evans, who
                              plays on the Erskine Tate Vendome Orchestra sides that also feature armstrong. He
                              died in 1928,

                              The Six Brown Brothers employed quite a bit of slap tongue. Hawkins cited this group
                              as being the one motivating him to take up the sax in the first place, and they seem
                              to have influenced Jazz saxophonists of all kinds generally.

                              Uncle Dave Lewis

                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@y...> wrote:
                              > Thanks Scott, yes indeed nice playing on 'Hallelujah'. My source, 'Jazz
                              > Directory' states Bushell but presumably, as he does not appear on RHJ
                              > collective personnel, this has been superseded ? However, this is alto and I
                              > think it is accepted that an alto style was in place before tenor. This alto
                              > style was legato based, a style not transferring well to tenor where it
                              > produced a bland mooing result. The tenor on 'Pay Day' does much better than
                              > that.
                              >
                              > Slapping was I think fashionably present on all saxes at one time but suits
                              > the tenor better as in the lower register it can produce a percussive drone
                              > effect, not unpleasant. I stress again that I am not, unlike you, an expert
                              > in this area but I think that at one time a slap interlude might be
                              > introduced in a performance by all saxes and clts. but it was just that, an
                              > interlude, not integrated in the larger performance which would be legato.
                              >
                              > Now I grew up on the Received Opinion 'No tenor style before Hawkins/Hawkins
                              > Father of tenor'. The first generation of jazz critics came to the music in
                              > the 30s with hindsight, with Hawkins already established also the 'novelty'
                              > aspects of the previous style would not have appealed to these intellectuals
                              > also even worse, I reckon it was probably white originated. Bigard,
                              > regarded as the guvner black tenor in Chicago, is playing much better jazz
                              > tenor in 1927 with the Dixie Syncopators than Hawkins with Henderson. Bigard
                              > well integrates slapping with more legato playing a in a fully valid and
                              > uniquely tenor style.
                              >
                              > The man on 'Pay Day' I hear as in this tradition and I still seek the origin
                              > of this style.
                              >
                              > There was ,of course, a continuing use of the sax in New Orleans from
                              > earliest times and I wonder what wider influence this has had. Maybe Mr
                              > Greenwood, renowned expert in this area could enlighten ?
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Brown
                              Happy Christmas All. Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 25, 2004
                                Happy Christmas All.

                                Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
                                accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
                                assume, E.Coast --stylist.

                                I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
                                Hounds'.

                                Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
                                available ?


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Howard Rye
                                ... Only that the first Original Jazz Hounds session (14 July 1925) was contracted by Columbia from Thornton G. Brown. This looks like a Perry Bradford group
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 26, 2004
                                  on 26/12/04 7:39, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                  > Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
                                  > accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
                                  > assume, E.Coast --stylist.
                                  >
                                  > I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
                                  > Hounds'.
                                  >
                                  > Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
                                  > available ?

                                  Only that the first Original Jazz Hounds session (14 July 1925) was
                                  contracted by Columbia from Thornton G. Brown. This looks like a Perry
                                  Bradford group but there are reportedly no vocals on this first session,
                                  though this has never been corrected in successive editions of Rust.

                                  The solution is found in a news item in the Pittsburgh Courier of 5
                                  September 1925, datelined Providence, RI, 8 September (which is clever you
                                  must admit), relating that Thornton G. Brown, former cornetist with Deppe's
                                  Syncopators, is directing the Original Jazz Hounds under the management of
                                  Perry Bradford. Brown and most of the band members were said to be touring
                                  the Columbia Burlesque Circuit with a show called 7-11.

                                  On 17 July 1926 the Baltimore Afro-American reports him in Lorraine
                                  Faulkner's band touting with Ethel Waters Vanities. In an advert from the
                                  New York Lafayette (New York Age, 18 September 1926) he gets separate and
                                  bizarre billing: Lorraine Faulkner's Orchestra, with Thornton Brown, Former
                                  Cornetist. In October he was still touring with Ethel but now as a member of
                                  Will Marion Cook's Philahrmonic Orchestra, described as "Thornton Brown, the
                                  jazz cornetist."

                                  These seem to be the only references in the Hoffman index. So we have a kind
                                  of one and a half year snapshot of a career that presumably lasted a mite
                                  longer.

                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  howard@...
                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                • Michael Rader
                                  A rather belated response to this one, I m afraid. The Original Jazz Hounds were available on a VJM LP with restoration work by John RT Davies (unusually for
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
                                    A rather belated response to this one, I'm afraid.

                                    The Original Jazz Hounds were available on a VJM LP with restoration work by John RT Davies (unusually for the label). Since LPs are rather out of favour, you might be able to pick this one up.

                                    The Original Jazz Hounds were a Perry Bradford related group, so this is a possible candidate for the Timeless Perry Bradford CD which should be out any minute now (a picture of the cover was in the Timeless advert in Vintage Jazz Mart).

                                    Frog also had a Perry Bradford CD scheduled as one of their next releases, but since David French is no longer among us, it's difficult to ascertain whether it will see the light of day - maybe Howard Rye would know.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Michael Rader
                                    >
                                    > Just run across a couple of tracks by Ethel Waters (Calssics 672) with
                                    > accompaniment including cnt. Thornton Brown. This is a very interesting --I
                                    > assume, E.Coast --stylist.
                                    >
                                    > I can find nothing about him except the tracks listed RHJ 'Original Jazz
                                    > Hounds'.
                                    >
                                    > Anyone have information or know if these tracks or others with him are
                                    > available ?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • David Brown
                                    Thanks Michael. I live Germany, as your email address suggests you do too, so some distance away from source of old VJM vinyl. Therefore I await the Timeless
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
                                      Thanks Michael.

                                      I live Germany, as your email address suggests you do too, so some distance
                                      away from source of old VJM vinyl. Therefore I await the Timeless with hope.

                                      Do you have the VJM ? If so how do you rate Brown and are his influences or
                                      origins detectable ?

                                      Dave


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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