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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Boy from New Orleans

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  • Michael Rader
    Nicola, I strongly suspected that you were in fact male, but your e-mail address gives no indication of where you are located. Questions are obviously welcome
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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      Nicola,

      I strongly suspected that you were in fact male, but your e-mail address gives no indication of where you are located.


      Questions are obviously welcome - I've asked some myself, as you might have noticed, but in view of the extremely specific nature of some of your questions, other group members should be entitled to know why you're asking. In an off-list exchange, someone actually asked me who is Nicola and why is he or she asking all of these questions?

      In addition to providing information, a major aim of this group is to serve as a platform for discussion.

      Kind regards,

      Michael Rader
      RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 08.09.05 12:44:26:
      >
      > Dear Michael Rader,
      > I'm a boy and my name is Nicola. If you don't know Italian names this is one.
      > Anyway, I think that names are not so important as the person who is under
      > them.
      >
      > This is a forum about jazz history (isn't it?) and so I use to ask questions to
      > learn more about this subject and doing researches about early jazzmen's
      > biographies. That's because I'm only 18 years old and maybe I don't have
      > such experience as other members, so I try kindly to ask.
      >
      > But if my questions and my presence are not welcomes, let me know, I can
      > silently leave this group not to disturb other members.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Nicola
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • sahfen
      Dear Michael, I ve been doing very specific researches about jazz since I was 15. I have many books, but sometime, even if they are very very precise, they
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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        Dear Michael,

        I've been doing very specific researches about jazz since I was 15. I have
        many books, but sometime, even if they are very very precise, they don't
        answer to my "thirst for knowledge".
        I love classic jazz and ragtime and I know very few people of my age that
        have my tastes and my interest. These boys (or girls) need only by the more
        expert (and more patient) people to be discovered and, above all, to be
        helped, because they are the FUTURE for this beautiful kind of music.

        Regards,

        Nicola
      • Mordechai Litzman
        Nicola s answer inspired me to write the following: I grew up in Sweden, and in the 50 s and 60 s there was only one radio program (!) which was run by the
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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          Nicola's answer inspired me to write the following:
          I grew up in Sweden, and in the 50's and 60's there was only one radio program (!) which was run by the Swedish Broadcasting System.There were no ads, and each citizen had to pay a fee for a yearly radio license. Apparently they have an extensive record collection, and in order to please everybody, a very eclectic mix of music was played (never the latest hits, maybe because of lack of money to pay royalties etc - we had to try to tune in to Radio Luxemburg to hear the latest hits, but the AM reception was poor).
          Anyhow, ast thirteen I got a used reel-to-reel taperecorder, and I used to sit with a microphone in front of the radio and record the tunes I liked, without knowing what it was, and who was playing. Later, as the Dixieland craze spread across Europe in the early 60's, I started to find out what I was listening to, and persuaded the local library to order a copy of Brian Rust's discography.
          Being armed with this knowledge I would head to the sales bin in the record stores, since nobody else seemed to be interested in the 20's jazz. Remember 45 rpm EPs?
          So I think we should encourage Nicola to continue asking questions and learn more about the music he loves (and he doesn't mix in any politics).
          Just to check if anybody bothered to read this, I have a question:
          Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King Oliver were rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing which keys to use on the cornet or incorporating the break in the chorus. I once actually heard this on one of the 1923 recordings of the Creole Jazz Band, but I don't recall any more which tune. Does anybody know ? (Please give the tune and time when it happens.)
          By the way, I just turned 59.


          sahfen <sahfen@...> wrote:
          Dear Michael,

          I've been doing very specific researches about jazz since I was 15. I have
          many books, but sometime, even if they are very very precise, they don't
          answer to my "thirst for knowledge".
          I love classic jazz and ragtime and I know very few people of my age that
          have my tastes and my interest. These boys (or girls) need only by the more
          expert (and more patient) people to be discovered and, above all, to be
          helped, because they are the FUTURE for this beautiful kind of music.

          Regards,

          Nicola





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        • Robert Greenwood
          Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King Oliver were rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing which keys to use on the
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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            "Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King
            Oliver were
            rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing which keys to
            use on the
            cornet or incorporating the break in the chorus. I once actually heard
            this on
            one of the 1923 recordings of the Creole Jazz Band, but I don't recall
            any more
            which tune. Does anybody know ? (Please give the tune and time when it
            happens.)"
            Mordecai: I think you might be referring to "I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody"
            on which Oliver can be heard signalling to Louis by quoting briefly
            from what break they are going to play next time round.
            Robert Greenwood.
          • Mordechai Litzman
            Thanks Robert - there it is. At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14 Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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              Thanks Robert - there it is. At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14 Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both play it together a 2:16.
              My first love is King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band from 1923, and I never tire of listening to these fabulous 39 recordings.
              Many have tried over the years to play in their style, but few have truly succeded. The best "modern" bands to play like them are Peruna Jazz Band from Denmark, Frog Island JB from the UK, Miss Lulu White's Red Hot Creole JB from Holland and the Barrelhouse JB from Germany. I am also told of two French bands (Claude Luter and Southern Stompers) but I haven't heard them.
              Would appreciate leads on other bands that play in the authentic style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole JB.

              Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
              "Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King
              Oliver were
              rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing which keys to
              use on the
              cornet or incorporating the break in the chorus. I once actually heard
              this on
              one of the 1923 recordings of the Creole Jazz Band, but I don't recall
              any more
              which tune. Does anybody know ? (Please give the tune and time when it
              happens.)"
              Mordecai: I think you might be referring to "I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody"
              on which Oliver can be heard signalling to Louis by quoting briefly
              from what break they are going to play next time round.
              Robert Greenwood.





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            • Mordechai Litzman
              Thanks Robert - there it is. At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14 Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                Thanks Robert - there it is. At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14 Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both play it together a 2:16.
                My first love is King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band from 1923, and I never tire of listening to these fabulous 39 recordings.
                Many have tried over the years to play in their style, but few have truly succeded. The best "modern" bands to play like them are Peruna Jazz Band from Denmark, Frog Island JB from the UK, Miss Lulu White's Red Hot Creole JB from Holland and the Barrelhouse JB from Germany. I am also told of two French bands (Claude Luter and Southern Stompers) but I haven't heard them.
                Would appreciate leads on other bands that play in the authentic style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole JB.

                Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                "Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King
                Oliver were
                rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing which keys to
                use on the
                cornet or incorporating the break in the chorus. I once actually heard
                this on
                one of the 1923 recordings of the Creole Jazz Band, but I don't recall
                any more
                which tune. Does anybody know ? (Please give the tune and time when it
                happens.)"
                Mordecai: I think you might be referring to "I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody"
                on which Oliver can be heard signalling to Louis by quoting briefly
                from what break they are going to play next time round.
                Robert Greenwood.





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              • Patrice Champarou
                ... Claude Luter was probably the most famous French jazz musician (after Django, of course!;))) since the 50 s and if I m not mistaken, he s over 80 and still
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                  > I am also told of two French bands (Claude Luter and Southern Stompers)
                  > but I haven't heard them.

                  Claude Luter was probably the most famous French jazz musician (after
                  Django, of course!;))) since the 50's and if I'm not mistaken, he's over 80
                  and still plays in Paris at the Petit Journal St Michel, near the Sorbonne.
                  Since I try to avoid the capital as much as possible, I have no idea what
                  his present band sounds like, but when I was in my teens he was often
                  featured with Bechet, even on TV, and it was more like alternating choruses,
                  nothing to do with the tricky intercourse and arrangements you can hear in
                  early bands. Even to me who had never heard of King Oliver at he time, and
                  only knew part of Sidney's Bluebird sessions, it didn't have the same
                  freshness.
                  There must be many more bands in Paris, I could only quote Maxime Saury
                  and Irakli because two friends of mine play in them, but while writing I
                  browsed for the Southern Stompers I had never heard about, and came across
                  http://perso.wanadoo.fr/claude.philips/PJprogramme.htm

                  Makes me think pre-war jazz (what we call "New", whereas one band
                  fancied calling itself "Old Orleans") is alive and kicking here!

                  Patrice
                • Robert Smith
                  Hello Mordechai I ve followed with interest your information about how King Oliver signalled the breaks to his young protegé Louis Armstrong. I have the same
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                    Hello Mordechai

                    I've followed with interest your information about how King Oliver signalled the breaks to his young protegé Louis Armstrong. I have the same enthusiasm as you for the Creole Jazz Band sides, so I dug out my copy of "I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody" on Biltmore 1049 (78) and copied this into my audio system so that I could study the individual parts that you mention.
                    However, the phrases occur at different times to those you mention, coming a few seconds later. This suggests to me that the two recordings (yours and mine) are recorded at different speeds, so I checked the key and found out that my recording is in the key of F+ or Gb- because it's pitched halfway between F and Gb which would suggest that your recording is in the key of Gb which I find highly unlikely as most classic jazz is recorded in the keys of F, Bb, and Eb.

                    Can anyone shed any light on this, particularly as my audio system permits key changes (pitch changes) without altering the tempo.

                    P.S. I've just checked the RedHotJazz Archive and that version is in the key of F.

                    Cheers

                    Bob Smith


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howard Rye
                    ... Yes indeed. There is a whole magazine devoted to the current French scene, called Jazz Dixie/Swing du Ragtime au Bigband, published by the Jazz Club de
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                      on 8/9/05 18:45, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                      >> I am also told of two French bands (Claude Luter and Southern Stompers)
                      >> but I haven't heard them.
                      >
                      > Claude Luter was probably the most famous French jazz musician (after
                      > Django, of course!;))) since the 50's and if I'm not mistaken, he's over 80
                      > and still plays in Paris at the Petit Journal St Michel, near the Sorbonne.
                      > Since I try to avoid the capital as much as possible, I have no idea what
                      > his present band sounds like, but when I was in my teens he was often
                      > featured with Bechet, even on TV, and it was more like alternating choruses,
                      > nothing to do with the tricky intercourse and arrangements you can hear in
                      > early bands. Even to me who had never heard of King Oliver at he time, and
                      > only knew part of Sidney's Bluebird sessions, it didn't have the same
                      > freshness.
                      > There must be many more bands in Paris, I could only quote Maxime Saury
                      > and Irakli because two friends of mine play in them, but while writing I
                      > browsed for the Southern Stompers I had never heard about, and came across
                      > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/claude.philips/PJprogramme.htm
                      >
                      > Makes me think pre-war jazz (what we call "New", whereas one band
                      > fancied calling itself "Old Orleans") is alive and kicking here!
                      >
                      Yes indeed.

                      There is a whole magazine devoted to the current French scene, called Jazz
                      Dixie/Swing du Ragtime au Bigband, published by the Jazz Club de France.

                      Issue 48 arrived here just today and reveals that Claude Luter's band is
                      indeed playing at the Petit Journal St Michel several times in the coming
                      months. They are also advertising The Southern Stompers (as above), New
                      Orleans Messengers, Paris Washboard, Fidgety Feet, Les Old Timers (ah, the
                      wonders of franglais), High Society Jazz Band, Le Old Dreamers Jazz Band,
                      Panama Jazz Band, Les Dixieland Seniors (and that's only the groups I can
                      easily identify as traditional). Yes, and the Vieil Orleans Orchestra, so
                      they still fancy the name!

                      For my money the best French groups of recent years have been those
                      associated with Jean-Pierre Morel and Daniel Huck, which frequently capture
                      a freshness which most groups can only dream of. Morel's Sharkey & Co group
                      of the 70s was astounding.

                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    • Michael Rader
                      Luter s fame is probably due in no small measure to his association with Bechet. His earliest (pre-Bechet) recordings are modelled heavily on Oliver s Creole
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                        Luter's fame is probably due in no small measure to his association with Bechet. His earliest (pre-Bechet) recordings are modelled heavily on Oliver's Creole Jazz - completely different to the style Patrice mentions. Luter himself was modelled on Dodds, although when he is playing with Bechet, he seldom approaches the power Dodds must have had. I've read that Luter had lessons from Alexandre Stellio, the famous clarinetist from Martinique, but there is no detectable influence. In more recent times, Luter has moved closer to Bechet, playing soprano sax in addition to clarinet.

                        Another important figure in post-war France seems to have been Pierre Atlan of the High Society Jazz Band, another band modelled on Oliver. Atlan was not well-known outside of France until the 1980s when he recorded several LPs for Stomp Off. I agree with Howard about Morel, whose Charquet group had many LPs on Stomp Off - his current group is called Le Petit Jazz Band de M. Morel and plays at the Petit Journal. Another group which enjoyed a spell of fame was the Hot Antic Jazz Band from Nîmes. They took part in Turk Murphy's farewell concert at Carnegie Hall, although they are comparable with Jabbo Smith's Rhythm Aces rather than any US West Coast Band. They featured a whizz-kid multi-instumentalist Jean-Francois Bonnel, principally a clarinetist, who recorded with Ken Colyer and Humphrey Lyttelton among others.

                        Paris always had a very strong jazz scene in the 1920s and 30s which must have created the environment for the post war revival. You will no doubt all know the Swing label whose claim to fame is not only Django and the QHCF. There are many fine recordings from France.

                        Best wishes

                        Michael



                        >
                        > Claude Luter was probably the most famous French jazz musician (after
                        > Django, of course!;))) since the 50's and if I'm not mistaken, he's over 80
                        > and still plays in Paris at the Petit Journal St Michel, near the Sorbonne.
                        > Since I try to avoid the capital as much as possible, I have no idea what
                        > his present band sounds like, but when I was in my teens he was often
                        > featured with Bechet, even on TV, and it was more like alternating choruses,
                        > nothing to do with the tricky intercourse and arrangements you can hear in
                        > early bands. Even to me who had never heard of King Oliver at he time, and
                        > only knew part of Sidney's Bluebird sessions, it didn't have the same
                        > freshness.
                        > There must be many more bands in Paris, I could only quote Maxime Saury
                        > and Irakli because two friends of mine play in them, but while writing I
                        > browsed for the Southern Stompers I had never heard about, and came across
                        > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/claude.philips/PJprogramme.htm
                        >
                        > Makes me think pre-war jazz (what we call "New", whereas one band
                        > fancied calling itself "Old Orleans") is alive and kicking here!
                        >
                        > Patrice
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


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                      • David W. Littlefield
                        I haven t the time to listen re the interesting note on Oliver s signals, but I did listen to RedHotJazz.com, the Naxos and Retrieval CDs for the key; it is
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                          I haven't the time to listen re the interesting note on Oliver's signals,
                          but I did listen to RedHotJazz.com, the Naxos and Retrieval CDs for the
                          key; it is for all practical purposes C--I tuned my guitar (with a tuner!)
                          before playing it with all 3 versions.

                          There are various technical reasons for speed variations and as I
                          understand it, they may occur at any step in the process: recording,
                          creating the production master, etc.

                          Those of you who want to go beyond RedHotJazz and get a CD, the Naxos is a
                          budget label, with 20 tracks. The Retrieval was transferred by JRTD, has 2
                          CDs with the complete 1923s, 4 others from 1924.

                          --Sheik

                          At 08:19 PM 09/08/05 +0200, you wrote:
                          >Hello Mordechai
                          >
                          >I've followed with interest your information about how King Oliver signalled
                          >the breaks to his young protegé Louis Armstrong. I have the same enthusiasm
                          >as you for the Creole Jazz Band sides, so I dug out my copy of "I Ain't
                          >Gonna Tell Nobody" on Biltmore 1049 (78) and copied this into my audio
                          >system so that I could study the individual parts that you mention.
                          >However, the phrases occur at different times to those you mention, coming a
                          >few seconds later. This suggests to me that the two recordings (yours and
                          >mine) are recorded at different speeds, so I checked the key and found out
                          >that my recording is in the key of F+ or Gb- because it's pitched halfway
                          >between F and Gb which would suggest that your recording is in the key of Gb
                          >which I find highly unlikely as most classic jazz is recorded in the keys of
                          >F, Bb, and Eb.
                          >
                          >Can anyone shed any light on this, particularly as my audio system permits
                          >key changes (pitch changes) without altering the tempo.
                          >
                          >P.S. I've just checked the RedHotJazz Archive and that version is in the key
                          >of F.
                          >
                          >Cheers
                          >
                          >Bob Smith
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Mordechai Litzman
                          Many thanks for all the interesting and insightful comments on my post. Re the pitch variation: I remember reading recently that early 78s varied greatly in
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 8, 2005
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                            Many thanks for all the interesting and insightful comments on my post.
                            Re the pitch variation: I remember reading recently that early 78s varied greatly in speed from 78 to 100 rpm. However, I don't own any 78s {well, maybe one (!) - I hope that I won't be knocked off the group for this heresy}. Over the years I have bought the same Oliver recordings several times, and this time I pulled out a 2 CD set called Loius Armstrong 1923-24 on the French Media 7 label. It could very well be that this CD was reproduced with the speed a little off, because I have an LP on the Epic label (LA 16003) where the break occurs a little earlier.
                            Be it as it may, listening to the break provides a fascinating insight into their playing.

                            Here is an interesting thought: I once read on the back of an LP cover that it's a good idea to buy the same reissues every 10 years because of the progress being made in restoring the old recordings, and I think that this idea has some merit.

                            Now, another basic question (Nicola, are you listening?):
                            Why are most early 78s about three minutes long? Early Edison and Pathe "hill and dale" recordings with the groove cut vertically instead of the horizontally easily held over four minutes of music. Piano rolls were of two or four minute duration. I once asked Cris Tyle this question, and he said that most people don't even have an attention span of more than three minutes !

                            Robert Smith <robert.smith@...> wrote:
                            Hello Mordechai

                            I've followed with interest your information about how King Oliver signalled the breaks to his young protegé Louis Armstrong. I have the same enthusiasm as you for the Creole Jazz Band sides, so I dug out my copy of "I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody" on Biltmore 1049 (78) and copied this into my audio system so that I could study the individual parts that you mention.
                            However, the phrases occur at different times to those you mention, coming a few seconds later. This suggests to me that the two recordings (yours and mine) are recorded at different speeds, so I checked the key and found out that my recording is in the key of F+ or Gb- because it's pitched halfway between F and Gb which would suggest that your recording is in the key of Gb which I find highly unlikely as most classic jazz is recorded in the keys of F, Bb, and Eb.

                            Can anyone shed any light on this, particularly as my audio system permits key changes (pitch changes) without altering the tempo.

                            P.S. I've just checked the RedHotJazz Archive and that version is in the key of F.

                            Cheers

                            Bob Smith


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          • Pavel Pitra
                            ... Hello to all, please excuse my ignorance and/or deafness and therefore the following question: I read with interest the thread and listened to the record
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 9, 2005
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                              >Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                              >"Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King
                              >Oliver were rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing
                              >which keys to use on the cornet or incorporating the break in the
                              >chorus.
                              >
                              >
                              >At 9:58 -0700 8/09/05, Mordechai Litzman wrote:
                              >... At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14
                              >Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both
                              >play it together a 2:16.

                              Hello to all,

                              please excuse my ignorance and/or deafness and therefore the
                              following question:

                              I read with interest the thread and listened to the record or
                              Redhotjazz.com, but I'm not sure to understand what you're speaking
                              about (perhaps because I'm not a musician). Do you mean by "rehearse"
                              or "signal" that (like in the case of I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody)
                              Oliver plays the theme used in the break once before, while still
                              backed by the orchestra (at 2min13 in the RHJ archive version)?
                              Then I hear the theme repeated twice in a (or two) break(s), but I
                              wonder how you manage to distinguish who is playing since to me it
                              sounds like the same player was repeating three times the
                              same/similar thing...

                              Well, I would be grateful for any comment, although some of you are
                              probably astonished that someone can ask something so evident...

                              Or perhaps I should just stick with Sam Lanin and Lou Gold rather
                              than trying to understand the complexities of "real" jazz ;-)

                              Cheers,

                              Pavel
                            • Mordechai Litzman
                              Good question. It took me a long time to figure out and distinguish between the two cornets playing. Anyhow, here are my thoughts: Oliver has a more muted and
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                Good question. It took me a long time to figure out and distinguish between the two cornets playing. Anyhow, here are my thoughts: Oliver has a more muted and lower tone, and Armstrong has a sharper and higher pitched tone. Listen to the wonderful breaks on Tears by the Creole Band, and you'll pick up Armstrong's tone. Then listen to the third take of Mabel's Dream (8487a) with a beautiful duet of Oliver and Armstrong (Scott, why is this version omitted on the RHJA ?), and you'll get the idea.
                                Now, Oliver being the boss, one would assume that he calls the shots on Ain't Going To Tell Nobody, and plays/signals Armstrong what to play at the break. So first we have Oliver, then Oliver again and Armstrong catching on towards the end of the second time: the third time you can hear both playing the break.
                                From the above you'll recognize that I am not a musician. Now, as regards your tastes in jazz, whatever "floats your boat" is real jazz !
                                By the way, Armstrong played so loud that he had to be placed all the way back in the recording studio when acoustic recordings were made in order not to overpower the other musicians. The recording engineer had to worry about the placement of the musicians instead of the microphones. Everything was "direct to disc", and editing was not possible.

                                Pavel Pitra <Pavel.Pitra@...> wrote:
                                >Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                                >"Legend has it that the famous breaks of Louis Armstrong and King
                                >Oliver were rehearsed during the playing itself - either by showing
                                >which keys to use on the cornet or incorporating the break in the
                                >chorus.
                                >
                                >
                                >At 9:58 -0700 8/09/05, Mordechai Litzman wrote:
                                >... At 2 min 11 sec Oliver signals the break to Armstrong. At 2:14
                                >Armstrong catches on towards the end of the break, and then both
                                >play it together a 2:16.

                                Hello to all,

                                please excuse my ignorance and/or deafness and therefore the
                                following question:

                                I read with interest the thread and listened to the record or
                                Redhotjazz.com, but I'm not sure to understand what you're speaking
                                about (perhaps because I'm not a musician). Do you mean by "rehearse"
                                or "signal" that (like in the case of I Ain't Gonna Tell Nobody)
                                Oliver plays the theme used in the break once before, while still
                                backed by the orchestra (at 2min13 in the RHJ archive version)?
                                Then I hear the theme repeated twice in a (or two) break(s), but I
                                wonder how you manage to distinguish who is playing since to me it
                                sounds like the same player was repeating three times the
                                same/similar thing...

                                Well, I would be grateful for any comment, although some of you are
                                probably astonished that someone can ask something so evident...

                                Or perhaps I should just stick with Sam Lanin and Lou Gold rather
                                than trying to understand the complexities of "real" jazz ;-)

                                Cheers,

                                Pavel


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                              • spacelights
                                ... style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole JB. King Oliver s Creole Jazz Band really had their own style. In a sense, I guess any group with its own style is
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 9, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Mordechai Litzman <folke613@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Would appreciate leads on other bands that play in the authentic
                                  style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole JB.

                                  King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band really had their own style. In a
                                  sense, I guess any group with its own style is authentic. I really
                                  love the Clarence Williams' Blue Five instrumentals of 1923-4 (10 with
                                  Thomas Morris on cornet, 1 with Armstrong, Bechet plays on all these
                                  except perhaps one where he's questionable; I think it's him). You
                                  also might enjoy Lovie Austin's Blues Serenaders (with Tommy Ladnier
                                  and Johnny Dodds), Johnny Dodds' Black Bottom Stompers, Jelly Roll
                                  Morton's Red Hot Peppers, and Piron's New Orleans Orchestra (quite
                                  beautiful--N.O. jazz of a different sort, a Creole "society" orchestra).

                                  Been traveling a bit, I'm at a cafe in San Francisco. Best wishes to
                                  the group...

                                  John
                                • Mordechai Litzman
                                  Thanks for your suggestions - I am familiar with all the bands you mention. However, what I really meant was to find contemporary bands that play in the Oliver
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Sep 10, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks for your suggestions - I am familiar with all the bands you mention. However, what I really meant was to find contemporary bands that play in the Oliver 23 style. Perhaps the best one today is Miss Lulu White's Red Hot Creole Jazz Band from Holland, but they have made very few CDs and don't seem interested in recording. There is a CD called 5 Lustrumconcerts to celebrate their 20th anniversary. (I can't even find a label name on the CD.) Their rendition of Cakewalking Babies from Home from 12/12/1999 could have been a live recording from Lincoln Gardens 1923 with the Oliver band. Astounding !
                                    It would be very nice to allow other members of the group to hear such a great recording, but I am sure there are legal restraints regarding copyrights etc, and I am not familiar with what method to use to send such a recording to the archives. However, if a place like Amazon.com can list samples of music on their website, perhaps an individual could do something similar. Would appreciate to hear from the group regarding this.
                                    spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Mordechai Litzman <folke613@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Would appreciate leads on other bands that play in the authentic
                                    style of the 1923 King Oliver Creole JB.

                                    King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band really had their own style. In a
                                    sense, I guess any group with its own style is authentic. I really
                                    love the Clarence Williams' Blue Five instrumentals of 1923-4 (10 with
                                    Thomas Morris on cornet, 1 with Armstrong, Bechet plays on all these
                                    except perhaps one where he's questionable; I think it's him). You
                                    also might enjoy Lovie Austin's Blues Serenaders (with Tommy Ladnier
                                    and Johnny Dodds), Johnny Dodds' Black Bottom Stompers, Jelly Roll
                                    Morton's Red Hot Peppers, and Piron's New Orleans Orchestra (quite
                                    beautiful--N.O. jazz of a different sort, a Creole "society" orchestra).

                                    Been traveling a bit, I'm at a cafe in San Francisco. Best wishes to
                                    the group...

                                    John




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