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Re: [RedHotJazz] JSP. Was Walter Bennett (yet again)

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  • Michael Rader
    Hi Dave, Good to see you here. ... The solution here would be for the cheap labels to come to some kind of royalty arrangement with the people whose work
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 4 7:38 AM
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      Hi Dave,

      Good to see you here.

      > Stealing is stealing.
      > >
      > >A question that does come up is if everyone buying JSP or Proper boxes would
      > >have bought the more expensive original sets and the answer is almost
      > >certainly no. Also, to be fair to JSP; they do not usually copy the complete
      > >sets, so that real collectors are unlikely to opt for them, given the choice.
      > Stealing is still stealing--no legitimate justification for it.
      > I bought the Milton Brown ProperBox before knowing they'd ripped it off
      > from JOL. I also bought the Bob Wills and Western Swing boxes, and several
      > others, explicitly because the cheap price enabled me to explore music I
      > would not otherwise have bought.

      The solution here would be for the "cheap" labels to come to some kind of royalty arrangement with the people whose work they are using. In particular if they are run by collectors. I don't know Stedman at all, but have seen some fairly negative opinions on Blues lists.

      The problem is that whole sets or the best part of them have been ripped off. If they were just samplers with reference to the originals
      > My rule with Classics, which also pirates freely, is to see if the music is
      > available legitimately before buying.

      The particular problem with JSP is that they built up a good reputation, based on their early boxes (Hot Fives and Sevens, Morton, Mills Brothers, Django Volume 1, Calloway) and that people expect them to be well restored, based on original work by John RT Davies or Ted Kendall. I have no idea what they have been using for some of their latest boxes: I bought the Paramount Masters and (at least) one track has a most disturbing "pre-echo" which can only be from an LP. There is a rumour that they used Document for their Blind Blake and Blind Lemon sets, which would really be stooping low, since Johnny Parth was an old rogue (but well loved) who used virtually any source.

      The situation is even more complicated than you believe, since copyright protection in the US theroretically extends to 2056 on *any* recording. That means virtually anything you might have in your collection is illegal, unless it was issued by Sony, BMG or the other biggies. This has to do with your Federal constitution in the US, where this is subject to individual state legislation. People always deplore the situation in Europe, but the US is sometimes even worse.

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    • soundofcd
      Hi Patrice, ... might find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at least if you re patient enough to search the archives;)
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 4 7:43 AM
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        Hi Patrice,

        > I can't remember if you're also on the pre-war-blues group but you
        might find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at
        least if you're patient enough to search the archives;)<

        I am, but I'm new there as well, but I'll certainly check the
        archives out.

        To be honest, I don't always know what is legit JSP or Properbox, and
        what isn't. And I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone off buying
        that which either company (or anyone else) has purchased and
        published legitimately.

        But I do get to be worried when small labels like Frog and Origin
        find their market and their earnings reduced by non-legitimate
        copyists. It damages them and if such companies are forced out of
        business, or forced to reduce their output, it damages us. Perhaps
        there's a service there, which we could do for each other, and for
        genuine record companies, in blowing the whistle on this and other
        boards, whenever we encounter examples of piracy.

        In any event, the JSP Patton set was too hard faced for words.
        Unlike, one presumes, some of JSP's other releases, the ink was
        barely dry on the Revenant set before JSP had their rip off copy on
        the record racks. There are a lot of things which I don't like about
        the Revenant. In fact, when I reviewed it, I was tempted to dismiss
        the whole thing as pretentious tosh. I didn't because it was put
        together with the best of intentions, by a group of lifelong Patton
        enthusiasts, whose last conceivable consideration was, presumably,
        how much money they could make out of the product. For those reasons,
        it deserves to be left alone.

        Incidentally, I don't know what the situation is in other countries.
        However, as far as I can gather, this kind of copying is not illegal
        in Britain, as long as the material is out of copyright. Does anyone
        know any different ?

        I can't say I've heard of Langel, but it certainly sounds one to


        Fred McCormick

        > I'm not sure this is completely off-topic, if it is I'm sure a
        *reasonable* amount of off-topic stuff does no harm, but if I
        understand you rightly you think it would be a correct attitude
        to "avoid" JSP releases, and I cannot
        > completely agree.
        > I mean, everyone is perfectly entitled to start a crusade and
        > mention illegal behaviours, but
        > - I'm not sure this would be more efficient than trying to boycott
        > international company whose policy is a crime against the human
        race or the
        > future of the planet (maybe that would mean boycotting them all ;)
        > - I do not think the whole staff who works for one of the rare and
        > companies who bother making pre-war recordings available to us is
        > responsible for pirating other's material.
        > - As long as there are laws that enable companies to solve the
        > the customer who is lucky to find such material at a
        > reasonable price has no reason to feel personally guilty. If I
        could have
        > afforded the Revenant box (a superb object, Robert Sacré showed it
        to me
        > when I visited him in Liège) I wouldn't have bought the cheap-
        > Pattons instead, but the fact is that some JSP box sets can be
        found in some
        > large records shops, even in France, at an affordable price (unlike
        > Yazoo's) and this is less of a mind pollution than the majority of
        what is
        > usually filed under "blues";)
        > Incidentally, this reminds me that I do not consider blues as
        a "category of
        > jazz" and makes me wonder if a book written by René Langel
        > tiltled "Le Jazz orphelin de l'Afrique") has been translated into
        > It's great food for thought, the largest collection of
        > faked arguments and comtempt for early jazz I've ever read!
        > Patrice
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