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Re: [RedHotJazz] JSP. Was Walter Bennett (yet again)

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  • Patrice Champarou
    Fred, I can t remember if you re also on the pre-war-blues group but you might find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at least if you re
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 3, 2004
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      Fred,

      I can't remember if you're also on the pre-war-blues group but you might
      find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at least if you're
      patient enough to search the archives;)
      I'm not sure this is completely off-topic, if it is I'm sure a *reasonable*
      amount of off-topic stuff does no harm, but if I understand you rightly you
      think it would be a correct attitude to "avoid" JSP releases, and I cannot
      completely agree.
      I mean, everyone is perfectly entitled to start a crusade and publicly
      mention illegal behaviours, but
      - I'm not sure this would be more efficient than trying to boycott an
      international company whose policy is a crime against the human race or the
      future of the planet (maybe that would mean boycotting them all ;)
      - I do not think the whole staff who works for one of the rare and small
      companies who bother making pre-war recordings available to us is
      responsible for pirating other's material.
      - As long as there are laws that enable companies to solve the problem,
      the customer who is lucky to find such material at a
      reasonable price has no reason to feel personally guilty. If I could have
      afforded the Revenant box (a superb object, Robert Sacré showed it to me
      when I visited him in Liège) I wouldn't have bought the cheap-looking
      Pattons instead, but the fact is that some JSP box sets can be found in some
      large records shops, even in France, at an affordable price (unlike imported
      Yazoo's) and this is less of a mind pollution than the majority of what is
      usually filed under "blues";)

      Incidentally, this reminds me that I do not consider blues as a "category of
      jazz" and makes me wonder if a book written by René Langel (originally
      tiltled "Le Jazz orphelin de l'Afrique") has been translated into English.
      It's great food for thought, the largest collection of misunderstanding,
      faked arguments and comtempt for early jazz I've ever read!

      Patrice
    • Michael Rader
      Patrice, JSP s practice does create a dilemma for the buyer, if he knows that JSP s sales are damaging the sales of the labels commission restoration work with
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 3, 2004
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        Patrice,

        JSP's practice does create a dilemma for the buyer, if he knows that JSP's sales are damaging the sales of the labels commission restoration work with possible impact on their ability or willingness to do further work.

        Colin Bray of Jazz Oracle has told me that Mosaic was strongly considering not issuing anything in the "vintage" category, since they thought it was likely that they would be ripped off by JSP (again).

        In the case of the Pattons, there actually was considerable extra work done by JSP on the originals by a very well known and respected sound enigineer, and, as far as I know, at considerable cost to Stedman.

        JSP still does reissue boxes which are exclusively theirs, e.g. the Charlie Parker studio recordings, the Django in Rome and the Hoagy Carmichael set. Maybe their justification for using others' work is that it helps to pay for their "legitimate" projects. In the case of Frog it's downright unfair, since Frog is working on a shoestring budget. David French bought the work done for several JSP CDs to make them available again (the two volumes of Memphis Blues, the Memphis Jug Band, which he completed with the missing third volume).

        Re Proper I know that Origin Jazz Library is upset due to Proper's ripping off not only the recordings but also some of the artwork from OJL for their Milton Brown set. The main reason that no action is taken is that the legal costs are too high.

        A question that does come up is if everyone buying JSP or Proper boxes would have bought the more expensive original sets and the answer is almost certainly no. Also, to be fair to JSP; they do not usually copy the complete sets, so that real collectors are unlikely to opt for them, given the choice.

        Best,

        Michael


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      • David W. Littlefield
        ... Before I knew that JSP was pirating other labels tracks, I bought the Bunny Berigan set, explicitly selecting it because it duplicated the Mosaic set re
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 4, 2004
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          At 08:39 AM 10/4/2004 +0200, you wrote:
          >JSP's practice does create a dilemma for the buyer, if he knows that JSP's
          >sales are damaging the sales of the labels commission restoration work with
          >possible impact on their ability or willingness to do further work.
          >
          >Colin Bray of Jazz Oracle has told me that Mosaic was strongly considering
          >not issuing anything in the "vintage" category, since they thought it was
          >likely that they would be ripped off by JSP (again).

          Before I knew that JSP was pirating other labels' tracks, I bought the
          Bunny Berigan set, explicitly selecting it because it duplicated the Mosaic
          set re the material in which I was interested. No idea whether pirating was
          involved, but for sure I'd have bought the Mosaic set if the JSP hadn't
          been available.

          >
          >JSP still does reissue boxes which are exclusively theirs, e.g. the Charlie
          >Parker studio recordings, the Django in Rome and the Hoagy Carmichael set.
          >Maybe their justification for using others' work is that it helps to pay for
          >their "legitimate" projects. In the case of Frog it's downright unfair,
          >since Frog is working on a shoestring budget. David French bought the work
          >done for several JSP CDs to make them available again (the two volumes of
          >Memphis Blues, the Memphis Jug Band, which he completed with the missing
          >third volume).

          Stealing is stealing.
          >
          >A question that does come up is if everyone buying JSP or Proper boxes would
          >have bought the more expensive original sets and the answer is almost
          >certainly no. Also, to be fair to JSP; they do not usually copy the complete
          >sets, so that real collectors are unlikely to opt for them, given the choice.

          Stealing is still stealing--no legitimate justification for it.

          I bought the Milton Brown ProperBox before knowing they'd ripped it off
          from JOL. I also bought the Bob Wills and Western Swing boxes, and several
          others, explicitly because the cheap price enabled me to explore music I
          would not otherwise have bought.

          My rule with Classics, which also pirates freely, is to see if the music is
          available legitimately before buying.

          --Sheik
        • Michael Rader
          Hi Dave, Good to see you here. ... The solution here would be for the cheap labels to come to some kind of royalty arrangement with the people whose work
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Hi Dave,

            Good to see you here.

            > Stealing is stealing.
            > >
            > >A question that does come up is if everyone buying JSP or Proper boxes would
            > >have bought the more expensive original sets and the answer is almost
            > >certainly no. Also, to be fair to JSP; they do not usually copy the complete
            > >sets, so that real collectors are unlikely to opt for them, given the choice.
            >
            > Stealing is still stealing--no legitimate justification for it.
            >
            > I bought the Milton Brown ProperBox before knowing they'd ripped it off
            > from JOL. I also bought the Bob Wills and Western Swing boxes, and several
            > others, explicitly because the cheap price enabled me to explore music I
            > would not otherwise have bought.

            The solution here would be for the "cheap" labels to come to some kind of royalty arrangement with the people whose work they are using. In particular if they are run by collectors. I don't know Stedman at all, but have seen some fairly negative opinions on Blues lists.

            The problem is that whole sets or the best part of them have been ripped off. If they were just samplers with reference to the originals
            > My rule with Classics, which also pirates freely, is to see if the music is
            > available legitimately before buying.
            >

            The particular problem with JSP is that they built up a good reputation, based on their early boxes (Hot Fives and Sevens, Morton, Mills Brothers, Django Volume 1, Calloway) and that people expect them to be well restored, based on original work by John RT Davies or Ted Kendall. I have no idea what they have been using for some of their latest boxes: I bought the Paramount Masters and (at least) one track has a most disturbing "pre-echo" which can only be from an LP. There is a rumour that they used Document for their Blind Blake and Blind Lemon sets, which would really be stooping low, since Johnny Parth was an old rogue (but well loved) who used virtually any source.

            The situation is even more complicated than you believe, since copyright protection in the US theroretically extends to 2056 on *any* recording. That means virtually anything you might have in your collection is illegal, unless it was issued by Sony, BMG or the other biggies. This has to do with your Federal constitution in the US, where this is subject to individual state legislation. People always deplore the situation in Europe, but the US is sometimes even worse.

            Cheers,
            Michael
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          • soundofcd
            Hi Patrice, ... might find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at least if you re patient enough to search the archives;)
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 4, 2004
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              Hi Patrice,

              > I can't remember if you're also on the pre-war-blues group but you
              might find some discussion about the Revenant/JSP topic there (at
              least if you're patient enough to search the archives;)<

              I am, but I'm new there as well, but I'll certainly check the
              archives out.

              To be honest, I don't always know what is legit JSP or Properbox, and
              what isn't. And I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone off buying
              that which either company (or anyone else) has purchased and
              published legitimately.

              But I do get to be worried when small labels like Frog and Origin
              find their market and their earnings reduced by non-legitimate
              copyists. It damages them and if such companies are forced out of
              business, or forced to reduce their output, it damages us. Perhaps
              there's a service there, which we could do for each other, and for
              genuine record companies, in blowing the whistle on this and other
              boards, whenever we encounter examples of piracy.

              In any event, the JSP Patton set was too hard faced for words.
              Unlike, one presumes, some of JSP's other releases, the ink was
              barely dry on the Revenant set before JSP had their rip off copy on
              the record racks. There are a lot of things which I don't like about
              the Revenant. In fact, when I reviewed it, I was tempted to dismiss
              the whole thing as pretentious tosh. I didn't because it was put
              together with the best of intentions, by a group of lifelong Patton
              enthusiasts, whose last conceivable consideration was, presumably,
              how much money they could make out of the product. For those reasons,
              it deserves to be left alone.

              Incidentally, I don't know what the situation is in other countries.
              However, as far as I can gather, this kind of copying is not illegal
              in Britain, as long as the material is out of copyright. Does anyone
              know any different ?

              I can't say I've heard of Langel, but it certainly sounds one to
              avoid.

              Cheers,

              Fred McCormick

              > I'm not sure this is completely off-topic, if it is I'm sure a
              *reasonable* amount of off-topic stuff does no harm, but if I
              understand you rightly you think it would be a correct attitude
              to "avoid" JSP releases, and I cannot
              > completely agree.
              > I mean, everyone is perfectly entitled to start a crusade and
              publicly
              > mention illegal behaviours, but
              > - I'm not sure this would be more efficient than trying to boycott
              an
              > international company whose policy is a crime against the human
              race or the
              > future of the planet (maybe that would mean boycotting them all ;)
              > - I do not think the whole staff who works for one of the rare and
              small
              > companies who bother making pre-war recordings available to us is
              > responsible for pirating other's material.
              > - As long as there are laws that enable companies to solve the
              problem,
              > the customer who is lucky to find such material at a
              > reasonable price has no reason to feel personally guilty. If I
              could have
              > afforded the Revenant box (a superb object, Robert Sacré showed it
              to me
              > when I visited him in Liège) I wouldn't have bought the cheap-
              looking
              > Pattons instead, but the fact is that some JSP box sets can be
              found in some
              > large records shops, even in France, at an affordable price (unlike
              imported
              > Yazoo's) and this is less of a mind pollution than the majority of
              what is
              > usually filed under "blues";)
              >
              > Incidentally, this reminds me that I do not consider blues as
              a "category of
              > jazz" and makes me wonder if a book written by René Langel
              (originally
              > tiltled "Le Jazz orphelin de l'Afrique") has been translated into
              English.
              > It's great food for thought, the largest collection of
              misunderstanding,
              > faked arguments and comtempt for early jazz I've ever read!
              >
              > Patrice
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