8791Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
- Aug 30, 2011Charles Delaunay gives the recording date as "15/16 October 1923" in his
discography, but it isn't clear from this if he means 15th AND 16th or 15th
OR 16th. The Archeophone CD set states "circa" for both 15th and 16th, with
"Chattanooga Stomp" on the 15th and "London (Cafe) Blues", "Camp Meeting
Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. This is also the case in the
revised 'King Joe Oliver' by Laurie Wright, as well as the latest edition of
Jazz Records (6th Edition).
However, in the original edition of "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) the
date given for all the sides is October 15th. Crucially, in the notes for
this session there appears the following comment: "Recording date and
rejected takes are from Columbia files". If this is the case, then why the
change to 15th and 16th in Jazz Records?
In the first and second editions of Jazz Records both "Chattanooga Stomp"
and "London (Cafe) Blues" are stated to have been recorded on the 15th with
"Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" on the 16th. Only by the third
edition is "Chattanooga" on the 15th with the other three on the 16th.
Nowhere does Brian Rust apply "circa", which I really think he should have
done, as there was (and still is!) obviously a lack of consensus!
Just to complicate matters, the first and second editions of Jazz Records
gives Buster Bailey as being on all four of the Columbias, the third to
fifth editions have "Buster Bailey or Jimmie Noone" for all four Columbias,
and the sixth edition has Jimmie Noone on "Chattanooga" only with Bailey on
the remaining three sides. In the original edition of "Joe King Oliver",
there is no mention of Buster Bailey for the Columbia session; Jimmie Noone
is assigned to all the Columbia sides.
Incidentally, the differences in tone and balance between the first Columbia
side ("Chattanooga") and the others does not necessarily mean that they must
have been recorded on different days. There could have been a break on the
same day while adjustments to the recording equipment and studio settings
were made. The fact that no less than seven masters following "Chattanooga"
were rejected ("Junk Man Blues" takes 1 to 3, and "London Blues" takes 1 to
4) certainly suggests some sort of problem with the equipment and/or
The notes in "King Joe Oliver" (Allen and Rust) also state that "Preston
Jackson once said (Down Beat, Nov 1, 1942) that Oliver used Noone and Atkins
on one date, and this is evidently it; the trombone is certainly not Dutrey
so is likely to be Atkins. The clarinet is not Dodds; WR once played this
for Dodds, who said it was not himself. Noone admitted being on one side
(Jazz Information, II:16) and can be identified by ear (Hughes Panassi�, WR,
John D.R. Wheater, Brian A.L. Rust, Walter C. Allen, Charles Delaunay, Dave
Stuart, Gene Williams). Noone is said to have both identified and disclaimed
his presence on hearing these records." If Brian Rust is sure it is Noone
here, then why the change to Buster Bailey for all four Columbias in Jazz
According to Rex Harris and Max Jones in Collector's Corner (Melody Maker,
1947), "It is known that Oliver was angry with Dodds (or some say he used a
different personnel because he was recording for Columbia) and took Jimmy
Noone in his place. He may have used Ed Atkins too, instead of Dutrey."
My own view is that Buster Bailey is the clarinettist on "London Blues",
"Camp Meeting Blues" and "New Orleans Stomp" and possibly on all four sides.
I have prepared a sound clip comparing the clarinet solo in "Camp Meeting
Blues" with a clip from a known Bailey side - "Squeeze Me" � one of the solo
sides he recorded for Banner in May 1925. Allowing for the gap of 19 months,
and the different studios, these sound like they could very well be the work
of the same man (at least to my ears). The vibrato (the best sonic
fingerprint in my view) is all but identical. Of course, early Bailey
clarinet is quite different from the later, thinner toned (and flashier)
solos he recorded with Henderson. Part of the reason for the difference in
tone between early and later Bailey is, I think, that the earlier Bailey was
playing an Albert system clarinet, which of course produces a "woodier"
If anyone would like an mp3 of this sound comparison file, please email me
and I will send it to them.
On 30 August 2011 08:28, ALAN BOND <alan_bond@...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I have to agree that there are
> a number of references to Buster Bailey being a regular with Oliver's CJB
> in 1923/24 but we can't be certain that he replaced Dodds on a full time
> basis. It would appear that Dodds didn't enjoy exactly robust health at the
> time and
> this may equate to the reason why he didn't appear on the Columbia sides.
> There is a gap between October 1923 & October 1924 and I will make a
> suggestion (and it can be no more than that) that Dodds
> was suffering from some kind of viral illness which affected his ability
> to perform his work and this kept him out work for about a year.
> Tuberculosis or rheumatic fever are possibilities but it could have
> been something else which required a lengthy period of convalescence. He
> did some work in late 1924
> with Tommy Ladnier as accompanist to the singing duo Ford & Ford and also
> with Edmonia Henderson which is followed by a gap until November 1925 when
> he joined Armstrong's Hot Five whose first session was as accompanists to
> Hociel Thomas. It would seem likely that it was due to Louis Armstrong that
> he did the work with Tommy Ladnier in 1924 and then, when Louis got the
> contract for the Hot Five & Seven sides, he got Dodds in, perhaps partly out
> of friendship, but certainly because of his musicianship. From then on Dodds
> recorded prolifically until late 1928 when he disappears from the recording
> scene for about ten years. Even so, he was not idle during this period as he
> was working consistently in clubs and bars in Chicago throughout the
> 'thirties and even if the work was probably not particularly lucrative, it
> would at least have been regular. It also says a lot about Louis and the way
> he looked after his friends and this is typified by
> reports that he reputedly paid Honore Dutrey's hospital bills in 1934/5.
> TTFN - 007
> --- On Mon,
> 29/8/11, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
> From: David Brown
> Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Noone on Oliver's Camp Meeting Blues
> To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 29 August, 2011, 14:56
> Hi Michael
> Yes. Chilton has Buster working permanently with Oliver from late 1923 to
> October 1924 so he must be well in the frame as replacement for Dodds --
> wherever was he ? -- in October 1923.
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