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5840Re: Tommy Ladnier (was re: Hughes Panassie} Challis on Bix reading

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  • silverleafjb
    Jul 1, 2008
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      Albert,
      Thank you for supplying the info about Bix's reading ability. But
      also please note that I didn't write that Bix couldn't read. Somehow
      I recall reading in an interview with one of the musicians in the
      Whiteman band, that Bix had confided that he was uncomfortable with
      his lack of expertise in reading. But, he Obviously had a good enough
      ear to work out his parts in conjunction with the other members of
      the trumpet section, as Challis pointed out.

      However, he can definitely be heard making a mistake in the timing
      playing the lead on Trumbauer's recording of "Dusky Stevedore."

      Cheers,
      Chris Tyle










      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > From Gene Lees in "Waiting for Dizzy," New York, Oxford University
      > Press, 1991. Interview of Bill Challis.
      >
      > I asked, "Is it true that Bix couldn't read? Or that he just read
      very
      > badly."
      > "I think he read badly. I don't say he couldn't read. He'd just sit
      > down and he had to work it out. I would write a chorus for him or
      half
      > a chorus. I'd write the harmony. Harmony didn't bother him at all.
      He
      > knew everything. What the next chord was. And I supplied it to him.
      > The same with Trumbauer. He could read really, I would say, a little
      > better than Bix. But Bix could read. When he sat down along side of
      > Fuzzy Farrar and Ray Lodwig, he had no problem following those guys.
      > "He'd come to a rehearsal. He'd go over the thing. Ferde would be
      > there. If another trumpet player was there, they'd go over it
      > together. He could read that. No problem reading that. Especially if
      > he was doing it with another guy who could read. He could read some.
      > Some."
      >
      > Also I have an audio tape (real media streaming file) by Russel B.
      > Nye. Recorded August 5, 1972.
      >
      > Description: R. B. Nye summarizes his interviews with
      pianist/arranger
      > Bill Challis, trombonist Bill Rank and drummer Chauncey Morehouse,
      all
      > of whom worked with Bix Beiderbecke, and talking about the jazz band
      > scene particularly in the 1920's with insights into Beiderbecke,
      > Hackett, Armstrong, Whiteman and others. At the beginning of part 1,
      > Nye recounts what Challis told him about Bix's skills as a musician.
      > Part 1. http://bixography.com/challisinterviewnye.html
      > Part 2. http://bixography.com/challisinterviewnyepart2.html
      >
      > Bix was not a good sight reader, but he could read and write (at
      least
      > with Challis) music.
      >
      > Albert
      >
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "silverleafjb" <silverleafjb@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Roger,
      > > My point of contention was the statement you made that Ladnier
      had, in
      > > your opinion "much great (sic) limitations than Bix did."
      Frankly, I
      > > see no such limitations in Ladnier's playing. Maybe you believe
      that
      > > his playing was limited, but as a musician I was pointing out the
      > > fact, not opinion, that Bix was the one with limitations, i.e.,
      his
      > > reading ability, which was a severe handicap for him in working
      for
      > > Goldkette and Whiteman - and one which he was keenly aware of, I
      might
      > > add.
      > >
      > > Clearly you have a great appreciation for Bix. I do too, and his
      > > playing was one of the reasons I became involved with playing
      jazz.
      > > But I can't, and never will be able to see any "limitations" with
      one
      > > musician's playing over another. The fact that Bix gives you more
      > > plesure than Ladnier is best stated that way, rather than seeing
      > > another player whom you don't appreciate as somehow
      being "limited".
      > > Personally, I get the same amount of joy listening to the work of
      > > Louis, Bix, Ladnier, Frank Guarente, Freddie Keppard, Tommy
      Dorsey (on
      > > trumpet), Jack Purvis, Roy Eldridge, Bunny Berigan, et. al., I
      would
      > > never deign to say one was "better" than another as a jazz
      musician. I
      > > love them all for their abilities and what they said musically -
      each
      > > wonderfully different from the other.
      > >
      > > Regarding Armstrong's reading ability, I've been over this several
      > > times here and on the Dixieland Jazz Mailing List. Yes, Armstrong
      > > could read; he couldn't have played with Fate Marable's band on
      the
      > > Streckfus riverboats if he couldn't. Period - end of story.
      Marable's
      > > was a reading band, especially for a cornet/trumpet player. Louis
      > > stated that David Jones, saxophonist and mellophone player with
      the
      > > band, helped him with his reading. Again, as with Ladnier, Louis
      would
      > > not have been able to play with Fletcher Henderson (or King
      Oliver,
      > > for that matter), if he couldn't read. He may not have been a
      > > brilliant sight reader, but then again, maybe he was. I just don't
      > > have evidence as I do the definite evidence of his ability to
      read.
      > >
      > > Frankly, I have as hard a time understanding your lack of
      appreciation
      > > for Ladnier as much as Tommer's lack of appreciation of Bix. But
      > > nothing that either of you may write will dim my enthusiasm for
      either
      > > player.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > Chris Tyle
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "rogerstrong257" <roger@>
      wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "silverleafjb"
      <silverleafjb@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I have to strongly disagree here. As a cornet player of many
      years,
      > > > > the statement about Bix being "better" than Tommy Ladnier is
      > > > > poppycock! It's an "apples and oranges" comparison as far as
      their
      > > > > jazz playing is concerned. But, on the technical level, Bix
      was a
      > > > > lousy reader; not so for Ladnier who was accomplished enough
      to
      > > > play
      > > > > with the bands of Sam Wooding and Fletcher Henderson. You had
      to be
      > > > > damn sharp as a reader to play with Henderson.
      > > > >
      > > > > Listen to Ladnier's accompaniment on Bessie Smith's "Foolish
      Man
      > > > > Blues," for example, to illustrate what a fine player Tommy
      Ladnier
      > > > > was. Or, for that matter, any of his sides with Fletcher
      Henderson
      > > > > (especially, "Snag It" with the Dixie Stompers). Or "Play
      That
      > > > Thing"
      > > > > by Ollie Powers. Ladnier was a New Orleans, blues-playing,
      King
      > > > Oliver
      > > > > inspired player. Bix was not - his inspiration came from
      elsewhere,
      > > > > even though he undoubtedly heard both Oliver and Ladnier.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cheers,
      > > > > Chris Tyle
      > > > >
      > > > > I certainly agree it's all a matter of opinion and
      obviously
      > > > what you hear when you hear Ladnier is something special-what I
      hear
      > > > is not, especially compared with Bix. Again the influence of
      black
      > > > musicians is a matter of opinion. Poppycock (to you) or not
      it's my
      > > > listening opinion over more than 50 years and has the same
      validity
      > > > as any one else.
      > > > I think its a huge red herring to bring in the matter of
      > > > ability to read music well or poorly. It fairly well documented
      that
      > > > Louis Amstrong was not a good reader at least initially and
      possibly
      > > > even later in life. I sould say that most poor jazz readers had
      a
      > > > variety of ways to compensate and it certainly didn't affect
      their
      > > > creative abilites. There must have been thousands of good fast
      > > > reading section men over the years but the truly creative
      jazzmen
      > > > have been much fewer in number.
      > > > Again Bix certainly had a much greater influence (in my
      opinion)
      > > > on other musicians that Ladnier ever did. While not a huge
      influence
      > > > one can hear traces of Bix in many trumpeters even to the
      present. I
      > > > would suggest it would be harder to trace the influence
      directly of
      > > > Ladniers style and sound on other musicians.
      > > >
      > > > cheers,
      > > >
      > > > Roger Strong
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Olivier Douville
      > > > > <douvilleolivier@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > And what 'bout that dear old Ward Pinkett ?
      > > > > > OD
      > > > > >
      > > > > > To say that Tommy Ladnier was as good or better than
      Bix may
      > > > be
      > > > > > your opinion but in mine its complete nonsence!
      > > > > > We all have our blind spots with regard to various artists
      but
      > > > > > that is just so weird. I think that in you attempt to make
      some
      > > > racial
      > > > > > point you have got more than a little carried away.
      > > > > > Of coure I can conceed that you (for some reason) can't hear
      > > > > > anything special in Bix' playing but I am doubly surprised
      that
      > > > you
      > > > > > hear anything great in Ladnier's playing He had much great
      > > > limitations
      > > > > > than Bix did.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Roger Storng
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Olivier Douville
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Directeur de publication de PSYCHOLOGIE CLINIQUE
      > > > > >
      > > > > > 22, rue de la Tour d'Auvergne 75009 Paris
      > > > > > tel : 06 77 69 24 51
      > > > > > ou
      > > > > > 01 53 20 91 81
      > > > > >
      > > > > > douvilleolivier@
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > liens
      > > > > > http://www.dunod.com/pages/ouvrages/ficheouvrage.asp?
      id=49180
      > > > > > http://www.psycho-ressources.com/olivier-douville.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
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