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Re: ReRecommendations...!

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  • alanterrill
    Hi Darren, I d recommend trying Gosta Berlings Sagas latest Detta Har Hant which i think is the best thing to come out in 2009. It s rooted in 70s style
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 7, 2010
      Hi Darren,
      I'd recommend trying Gosta Berlings Sagas latest 'Detta Har Hant' which i think is the best thing to come out in 2009. It's rooted in 70s style instrumental prog but sound very modern -very complex, lots of time signature changes and wild guitar solos etc but also quite tuneful.
      You might also like Miriodor, a Canadian band of long standing who have taken what was once progressive into more complex areas. They've done a lot but I'd suggest starting with 3rd Warning or Elastic Juggling - if you like these then move on to their more recent ones, but they're all good.

      Alan


      --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
      >
      > My main passions are King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Chris Cutler, Thinking Plague, Frank Zappa, Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill, as well as Prog Rock groups Genesis (mainly 70s), Jethro Tull (same) and Yes (same)...
      >
      > Taking that lot into consideration, can folks recommend me new music by way of association (taking into consideration I've not gone through all the ReR Megacorp or R.I.O world yet, also that the recently released Henry Cow box set is an absolute gem, and I've not fully indulged in all the discs yet!)
      >
    • Andy Wilson
      ... anything by The Sex Pistols might be a tonic at this point ... the associative connection being determinate negation andy -- [][][] Andy Wilson |
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 11, 2010
        Darren wrote:
        > King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Chris Cutler,
        > Thinking Plague, Frank Zappa, Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill
        > Genesis (mainly 70s), Jethro Tull (same) and Yes (same)...

        anything by The Sex Pistols might be a tonic at this point

        > Taking that lot into consideration, can folks recommend me new music by way of association

        the associative connection being 'determinate negation'

        andy



        --

        [][][] Andy Wilson | Mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
        [][] Managing Director | Tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
        [] [] LShift Ltd | Web: http://www.lshift.net
      • Richard
        Hello Darren Here s a few recommendations: PICCHIO DAL POZZO: Abbiamo tutti i suoi problemi NAZCA: Nazca SOGENANNTES LINKSRADIKALES BLASORCHESTER: Sogenanntes
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 23, 2010
          Hello Darren
          Here's a few recommendations:
          PICCHIO DAL POZZO: Abbiamo tutti i suoi problemi
          NAZCA: Nazca
          SOGENANNTES LINKSRADIKALES BLASORCHESTER: Sogenanntes Linksradikales Blasorchester
          PAOLO ANGELI/NITA: L'Angelo sul Trapezio

          All available from ReR. Not all new music as in new releases, but "new to you" is presumably what you meant; hope you enjoy.


          --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
          >
          > My main passions are King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Chris Cutler, Thinking Plague, Frank Zappa, Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill, as well as Prog Rock groups Genesis (mainly 70s), Jethro Tull (same) and Yes (same)...
          >
          > Taking that lot into consideration, can folks recommend me new music by way of association (taking into consideration I've not gone through all the ReR Megacorp or R.I.O world yet, also that the recently released Henry Cow box set is an absolute gem, and I've not fully indulged in all the discs yet!)
          >
        • Richard
          In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wilson wrote: Darren wrote: King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Chris Cutler, Thinking Plague,
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
            In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:
            Darren wrote: "King Crimson/Robert Fripp, Henry Cow/Fred Frith/Chris Cutler, Thinking Plague, Frank Zappa, Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill, Genesis (mainly 70s), Jethro Tull (same) and Yes (same)..."

            "anything by The Sex Pistols might be a tonic at this point"

            "Taking that lot into consideration, can folks recommend me new music by way of association?"

            "...the associative connection being 'determinate negation'"

            I think seeing the Sex Pistols as some astringent spray to apply to the "progressive rock excesses of the 70s" is erroneous. The Sex Pistols were by the media, of the media and for the media. The group members may have stated a need to produce something new; in fact, they did exactly the reverse. They were a point on a line that began with the rock'n'roll & blues revivals of the late 60s [typified by the declared intent of The Beatles to get "back to basics" with the most aptly named "Get Back" LP] & which carried on via the "pub rock movement" [most notably Dr Feelgood]; in other words, a reaction to the perceived excesses of psychedelia & the start of progressive rock.
            Appearing as they did on EMI/A & M/Virgin, the Sex Pistols were as safe a commodity as Yes or Genesis ever were. The only abrasive & truly confrontational aspect of The Sex Pistols that was not in any way pre-packaged was Rotten's vocal style, which in the face of mass plagiarism swiftly became just another mannerism.

            If I had to recommend a "counter" to any prevailing 70s progressive rock initiative, it would be the early work of The Residents, avowed non-musicians producing truly independent works in a way that questioned the nature of art itself. The means of production and promotion they employed called rock music to account in a way that The Sex Pistols never did.
          • Andy Wilson
            ... yes, so they say - in the media. Malcolm MacLaren was successful at least in convincing people of the fable that the Sex Pistols were purely a media hype.
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
              Richard wrote:
              > "...the associative connection being 'determinate negation'"
              > The Sex Pistols were by the media, of the media and for the media.

              yes, so they say - in the media. Malcolm MacLaren was successful at
              least in convincing people of the fable that the Sex Pistols were purely
              a media hype.

              All the same, the group wrote music and lyrics, learned to play their
              instruments together (Sid excepted) and made some of the most important
              music of the decade, galvanising / catalysing a generation, leading to
              an explosion of creativity from young musicians. They were the Lonnie
              Donnegan's of the 70s. Personally I go with Robert Wyatt's idea that
              punk rock accidentally introduced something akin to serialism into rock
              music.

              > They were a point on a line that began with the rock'n'roll & blues
              > revivals of the late 60s [typified by the declared intent of
              > The Beatles to get "back to basics" with the most aptly named
              > "Get Back" LP] & which carried on via the "pub rock movement"
              > [most notably Dr Feelgood]; in other words, a reaction to the
              > perceived excesses of psychedelia & the start of progressive rock.

              correct - with the minor caveat that such proggish excesses were only
              'perceived' because they were so blatantly on display.

              > Appearing as they did on EMI/A & M/Virgin, the Sex Pistols were as
              > safe a commodity as Yes or Genesis ever were.

              I find that a rather meaningless thing to say (group is on big label =
              group is a vacuous commodity), tbh. Of course their music was
              commodified, but, eg., Johnny Rotten, went to considerable lengths to
              undo and undermine the same commodification as it unwound (until a few
              years ago when he seems to have decided that his future lies witht he
              Johnny Rotten brand). I've never heard of any music that couldn't be
              commodified. Whatever we think of commodification it makes no sense to
              decry it as such, or to criticise art or artists because their work is
              commodified. The entire classical canon today is nothing but a
              commercial racket, but it seems peevish to blame Beethoven for that.

              Incidentally - it's a shame that Henry Cow didn't take up the offer to
              play with the Pistols, as I am told they were invited to do.

              I suppose my worry is that people imagine that it is somehow possible to
              create a pleasing little artistic backwater that is untroubled by
              commerciality, but that's an entirely chimerical ideal: there is a
              market too for "nice things for right-thinking people", and lovingly
              packaged art-objects are just as much part of the general economy, and
              just as ideological, as any other product, albeit that they try to swim
              against the tide.
              .
              > The only abrasive & truly confrontational aspect of The Sex Pistols
              > that was not in any way pre-packaged was Rotten's vocal style, which
              > in the face of mass plagiarism swiftly became just another mannerism.

              A bit like Romanticism? or the blues? yes, many fine things become
              endlessly reproduced and finally converge on banality. but that hardly
              bears on the original productions, unless you want to retroactively
              condemn everything that eventually falls into the gaping maw of the market.

              > If I had to recommend a "counter" to any prevailing 70s progressive
              > rock initiative, it would be the early work of The Residents, avowed
              > non-musicians producing truly independent works in a way that questioned
              > the nature of art itself. The means of production and promotion they
              > employed called rock music to account in a way that The Sex Pistols
              > never did.

              That seems an odd choice. The Residents were a fine, interesting group,
              for sure, but they quickly became a brand imho, selling endless box
              sets. I don't mean that as a special criticism of The Residents, just
              that I see no difference in principle between them and The Sex Pistols,
              give or take the fact that the Pistols were rather more notorious for a
              while, thereby opening themselves up to your criticism that they were
              merely a media creation.

              Finally, I described the Pistols as a 'determinate negation' because
              they really did seem to be (at the heart of) the reflux against
              progressive rock, a kind of antithesis, as opposed to an alternative. I
              remember being a working class boy at a posh, paying grammar school (on
              a grant, you understand) and finding the progressive rock music that my
              classmates listened to to be utterly alien to me, to the point of
              incomprehensibility. The lyrical concerns, artwork, conspicuous
              musicianship et al all screamed to me that this was an elitist music -
              worse still, the marketing of the music seemed to be predicated on the
              elitism, is you see what I mean. They point of it all seemed to be to
              'tame' and defang rock music to make it acceptable to the middle class.
              I much preferred reggae (not an unpopular choice in that place and time
              - Coventry, the early 70s), and I remember thinking at the time,
              wouldn't it be great if someone made rock music that was as hip as
              reggae. When I heard the Sex Pistols I heard for the first time in my
              life contemporary rock music that actually spoke to me. If that isn't an
              artistic achievement, or of artistic significance, I don't know what is.


              a

              --
              [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
              [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
              [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net
            • Andy Wilson
              ps. welcome to the list, Richard. Don t be at all put off by the fact that I have started off by disagreeing with you. that is normal (for me, not necessarily
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                ps. welcome to the list, Richard. Don't be at all put off by the fact
                that I have started off by disagreeing with you. that is normal (for me,
                not necessarily the list) ;-)

                a

                Andy Wilson wrote:
                > Richard wrote:
                >> "...the associative connection being 'determinate negation'"
                >> The Sex Pistols were by the media, of the media and for the media.
                >
                > yes, so they say - in the media. Malcolm MacLaren was successful at
                > least in convincing people of the fable that the Sex Pistols were purely
                > a media hype.
                >
                > All the same, the group wrote music and lyrics, learned to play their
                > instruments together (Sid excepted) and made some of the most important
                > music of the decade, galvanising / catalysing a generation, leading to
                > an explosion of creativity from young musicians. They were the Lonnie
                > Donnegan's of the 70s. Personally I go with Robert Wyatt's idea that
                > punk rock accidentally introduced something akin to serialism into rock
                > music.
                >
                >> They were a point on a line that began with the rock'n'roll & blues
                > > revivals of the late 60s [typified by the declared intent of
                >> The Beatles to get "back to basics" with the most aptly named
                > > "Get Back" LP] & which carried on via the "pub rock movement"
                > > [most notably Dr Feelgood]; in other words, a reaction to the
                > > perceived excesses of psychedelia & the start of progressive rock.
                >
                > correct - with the minor caveat that such proggish excesses were only
                > 'perceived' because they were so blatantly on display.
                >
                >> Appearing as they did on EMI/A & M/Virgin, the Sex Pistols were as
                > > safe a commodity as Yes or Genesis ever were.
                >
                > I find that a rather meaningless thing to say (group is on big label =
                > group is a vacuous commodity), tbh. Of course their music was
                > commodified, but, eg., Johnny Rotten, went to considerable lengths to
                > undo and undermine the same commodification as it unwound (until a few
                > years ago when he seems to have decided that his future lies witht he
                > Johnny Rotten brand). I've never heard of any music that couldn't be
                > commodified. Whatever we think of commodification it makes no sense to
                > decry it as such, or to criticise art or artists because their work is
                > commodified. The entire classical canon today is nothing but a
                > commercial racket, but it seems peevish to blame Beethoven for that.
                >
                > Incidentally - it's a shame that Henry Cow didn't take up the offer to
                > play with the Pistols, as I am told they were invited to do.
                >
                > I suppose my worry is that people imagine that it is somehow possible to
                > create a pleasing little artistic backwater that is untroubled by
                > commerciality, but that's an entirely chimerical ideal: there is a
                > market too for "nice things for right-thinking people", and lovingly
                > packaged art-objects are just as much part of the general economy, and
                > just as ideological, as any other product, albeit that they try to swim
                > against the tide.
                > .
                >> The only abrasive & truly confrontational aspect of The Sex Pistols
                > > that was not in any way pre-packaged was Rotten's vocal style, which
                > > in the face of mass plagiarism swiftly became just another mannerism.
                >
                > A bit like Romanticism? or the blues? yes, many fine things become
                > endlessly reproduced and finally converge on banality. but that hardly
                > bears on the original productions, unless you want to retroactively
                > condemn everything that eventually falls into the gaping maw of the market.
                >
                >> If I had to recommend a "counter" to any prevailing 70s progressive
                > > rock initiative, it would be the early work of The Residents, avowed
                > > non-musicians producing truly independent works in a way that questioned
                > > the nature of art itself. The means of production and promotion they
                > > employed called rock music to account in a way that The Sex Pistols
                > > never did.
                >
                > That seems an odd choice. The Residents were a fine, interesting group,
                > for sure, but they quickly became a brand imho, selling endless box
                > sets. I don't mean that as a special criticism of The Residents, just
                > that I see no difference in principle between them and The Sex Pistols,
                > give or take the fact that the Pistols were rather more notorious for a
                > while, thereby opening themselves up to your criticism that they were
                > merely a media creation.
                >
                > Finally, I described the Pistols as a 'determinate negation' because
                > they really did seem to be (at the heart of) the reflux against
                > progressive rock, a kind of antithesis, as opposed to an alternative. I
                > remember being a working class boy at a posh, paying grammar school (on
                > a grant, you understand) and finding the progressive rock music that my
                > classmates listened to to be utterly alien to me, to the point of
                > incomprehensibility. The lyrical concerns, artwork, conspicuous
                > musicianship et al all screamed to me that this was an elitist music -
                > worse still, the marketing of the music seemed to be predicated on the
                > elitism, is you see what I mean. They point of it all seemed to be to
                > 'tame' and defang rock music to make it acceptable to the middle class.
                > I much preferred reggae (not an unpopular choice in that place and time
                > - Coventry, the early 70s), and I remember thinking at the time,
                > wouldn't it be great if someone made rock music that was as hip as
                > reggae. When I heard the Sex Pistols I heard for the first time in my
                > life contemporary rock music that actually spoke to me. If that isn't an
                > artistic achievement, or of artistic significance, I don't know what is.
                >
                >
                > a
                >


                --
                [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net
              • mario bucci
                I d like to add my 2 cents contribution to what Andy has written. I basically agree with his analysis. The first point is that I wonder to what extent the Sex
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                  I'd like to add my 2 cents contribution to what Andy has written. I basically agree with his analysis.

                  The first point is that I wonder to what extent the Sex Pistols can be taken as the epitome for Punk. I have seen Punk from very far (I was living in Italy in the 70's), but I have developed the feeling that the Sex Pistols were formed within a broader social/musical movement .. I read Andy's initial reference to the Sex Pistols as a suggestion that some punk music would provide a healthy alternative to the 'prog' groups listed in the initial message.

                  In this sense, I really agree with Andy's suggestion, because punk has really provided a  source of renewal of  the rock music scene which, towards the end of the 70s, was becoming quite stale. Although I am not capable to make the kind of evaluation that Robert Wyatt makes (and which Andy quotes), I am sure that (at least some) musicians that came from a different (older) generation and musical background have been deeply influenced by punk.

                  I would say that groups like The Work, This Heat, The Homosexuals, Unrest Work & Play (all great favourites of mine) would not have existed or would not have existed as they have, had punk not been there.

                  The second point I wanted to make is about the process of commodification. Again, I agree with what Andy says. I would add that for an 'art' or cultural artifact to become a commodity, there must exist a market. While one could envisage that the Sex Pistols have been created with the only idea of making a commodity out of them, it is for me hard to believe that the MARKET for such a commodity (i.e., the potential buyers) is from the beginning the result of intentional action by the media industry. As far as I understand it, punk was born and developed out of a particular social class that was there before industry could imagine to turn it into a cultural market (at least in the UK and at least for punk music and fashion). The reason why Andy can say that punk was a music that spoke to a working class teenager (and he's not the only one I've heard say that) is because punk had its roots in that same class.

                  Then of course, once the phenomenon of punk started to spread, things became a lot more complex, to include a process of commodification and standardisation (and mediatisation). I take the fact that at the beginning the Sex Pistols signed a contract with a major and they were released from that contract by that major as a sign that at that moment the cost/benefit analysis that the industry was making of punk was considered as not favourable to industry ... the creation of a market for the commodity was still uncertain. What happened next is quite typical and less relevant to what we're discussing here.

                  A last point. Andy, where from have you heard of the SP/HC playing together? It would be interesting to know when (which year) that should have happened, because there came a point when HC only existed on paper and on stage, but no longer as a group. But if that had happened early enough, I feel retrospectively that it has been really a missed opportunity.

                  Mario


                  --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:

                  From: Andy Wilson <andy@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ReRmegacorp] Sex Pistols
                  To: ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 12:06

                   

                  ps. welcome to the list, Richard. Don't be at all put off by the fact
                  that I have started off by disagreeing with you. that is normal (for me,
                  not necessarily the list) ;-)

                  a

                  Andy Wilson wrote:
                  > Richard wrote:
                  >> "...the associative connection being 'determinate negation'"
                  >> The Sex Pistols were by the media, of the media and for the media.
                  >
                  > yes, so they say - in the media. Malcolm MacLaren was successful at
                  > least in convincing people of the fable that the Sex Pistols were purely
                  > a media hype.
                  >
                  > All the same, the group wrote music and lyrics, learned to play their
                  > instruments together (Sid excepted) and made some of the most important
                  > music of the decade, galvanising / catalysing a generation, leading to
                  > an explosion of creativity from young musicians. They were the Lonnie
                  > Donnegan's of the 70s. Personally I go with Robert Wyatt's idea that
                  > punk rock accidentally introduced something akin to serialism into rock
                  > music.
                  >
                  >> They were a point on a line that began with the rock'n'roll & blues
                  > > revivals of the late 60s [typified by the declared intent of
                  >> The Beatles to get "back to basics" with the most aptly named
                  > > "Get Back" LP] & which carried on via the "pub rock movement"
                  > > [most notably Dr Feelgood]; in other words, a reaction to the
                  > > perceived excesses of psychedelia & the start of progressive rock.
                  >
                  > correct - with the minor caveat that such proggish excesses were only
                  > 'perceived' because they were so blatantly on display.
                  >
                  >> Appearing as they did on EMI/A & M/Virgin, the Sex Pistols were as
                  > > safe a commodity as Yes or Genesis ever were.
                  >
                  > I find that a rather meaningless thing to say (group is on big label =
                  > group is a vacuous commodity), tbh. Of course their music was
                  > commodified, but, eg., Johnny Rotten, went to considerable lengths to
                  > undo and undermine the same commodification as it unwound (until a few
                  > years ago when he seems to have decided that his future lies witht he
                  > Johnny Rotten brand). I've never heard of any music that couldn't be
                  > commodified. Whatever we think of commodification it makes no sense to
                  > decry it as such, or to criticise art or artists because their work is
                  > commodified. The entire classical canon today is nothing but a
                  > commercial racket, but it seems peevish to blame Beethoven for that.
                  >
                  > Incidentally - it's a shame that Henry Cow didn't take up the offer to
                  > play with the Pistols, as I am told they were invited to do.
                  >
                  > I suppose my worry is that people imagine that it is somehow possible to
                  > create a pleasing little artistic backwater that is untroubled by
                  > commerciality, but that's an entirely chimerical ideal: there is a
                  > market too for "nice things for right-thinking people", and lovingly
                  > packaged art-objects are just as much part of the general economy, and
                  > just as ideological, as any other product, albeit that they try to swim
                  > against the tide.
                  > .
                  >> The only abrasive & truly confrontational aspect of The Sex Pistols
                  > > that was not in any way pre-packaged was Rotten's vocal style, which
                  > > in the face of mass plagiarism swiftly became just another mannerism.
                  >
                  > A bit like Romanticism? or the blues? yes, many fine things become
                  > endlessly reproduced and finally converge on banality. but that hardly
                  > bears on the original productions, unless you want to retroactively
                  > condemn everything that eventually falls into the gaping maw of the market.
                  >
                  >> If I had to recommend a "counter" to any prevailing 70s progressive
                  > > rock initiative, it would be the early work of The Residents, avowed
                  > > non-musicians producing truly independent works in a way that questioned
                  > > the nature of art itself. The means of production and promotion they
                  > > employed called rock music to account in a way that The Sex Pistols
                  > > never did.
                  >
                  > That seems an odd choice. The Residents were a fine, interesting group,
                  > for sure, but they quickly became a brand imho, selling endless box
                  > sets. I don't mean that as a special criticism of The Residents, just
                  > that I see no difference in principle between them and The Sex Pistols,
                  > give or take the fact that the Pistols were rather more notorious for a
                  > while, thereby opening themselves up to your criticism that they were
                  > merely a media creation.
                  >
                  > Finally, I described the Pistols as a 'determinate negation' because
                  > they really did seem to be (at the heart of) the reflux against
                  > progressive rock, a kind of antithesis, as opposed to an alternative. I
                  > remember being a working class boy at a posh, paying grammar school (on
                  > a grant, you understand) and finding the progressive rock music that my
                  > classmates listened to to be utterly alien to me, to the point of
                  > incomprehensibility . The lyrical concerns, artwork, conspicuous
                  > musicianship et al all screamed to me that this was an elitist music -
                  > worse still, the marketing of the music seemed to be predicated on the
                  > elitism, is you see what I mean. They point of it all seemed to be to
                  > 'tame' and defang rock music to make it acceptable to the middle class.
                  > I much preferred reggae (not an unpopular choice in that place and time
                  > - Coventry, the early 70s), and I remember thinking at the time,
                  > wouldn't it be great if someone made rock music that was as hip as
                  > reggae. When I heard the Sex Pistols I heard for the first time in my
                  > life contemporary rock music that actually spoke to me. If that isn't an
                  > artistic achievement, or of artistic significance, I don't know what is.
                  >
                  >
                  > a
                  >

                  --
                  [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                  [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                  [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net


                • Andy Wilson
                  hi Mario ... Tim Hodgkinson once mentioned this to me. I didn t say so at the time but it occured to me that there is another possibility apart from the
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                    hi Mario

                    mario bucci wrote:
                    > A last point. Andy, where from have you heard of the SP/HC playing
                    > together? It would be interesting to know when (which year) that should
                    > have happened, because there came a point when HC only existed on paper
                    > and on stage, but no longer as a group. But if that had happened early
                    > enough, I feel retrospectively that it has been really a missed opportunity.

                    Tim Hodgkinson once mentioned this to me. I didn't say so at the time
                    but it occured to me that there is another possibility apart from the
                    straightforward idea that the groups together would have made for a good
                    musical/performance/cultural package: I have a sneaking suspicion that
                    this is the kind of thing MacLaren might have proposed, hoping that it
                    would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies', and thus more media
                    sensationalism and attention.

                    Of course, as everyone knows, Johnny Rotten had very eclectic, catholic
                    tastes in music, stretching from dub reggae to krautrock, with Hawkwind
                    and Van der Graaf Generator on the way, so it's possible that he may
                    have been interested in playing together. But if the initiative came
                    from MacLaren then it was almost certainly a trap.

                    a


                    --
                    [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                    [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                    [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net
                  • mario bucci
                    Thanks Andy, an interesting anecdote and a potentially correct interpretation. I guess we ll never know. Cheers Mario ... From: Andy Wilson
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                      Thanks Andy, an interesting anecdote and a potentially correct interpretation. I guess we'll never know.

                      Cheers
                      Mario

                      --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:

                      From: Andy Wilson <andy@...>
                      Subject: Re: [ReRmegacorp] Sex Pistols
                      To: ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 14:15

                       

                      hi Mario

                      mario bucci wrote:
                      > A last point. Andy, where from have you heard of the SP/HC playing
                      > together? It would be interesting to know when (which year) that should
                      > have happened, because there came a point when HC only existed on paper
                      > and on stage, but no longer as a group. But if that had happened early
                      > enough, I feel retrospectively that it has been really a missed opportunity.

                      Tim Hodgkinson once mentioned this to me. I didn't say so at the time
                      but it occured to me that there is another possibility apart from the
                      straightforward idea that the groups together would have made for a good
                      musical/performance /cultural package: I have a sneaking suspicion that
                      this is the kind of thing MacLaren might have proposed, hoping that it
                      would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies', and thus more media
                      sensationalism and attention.

                      Of course, as everyone knows, Johnny Rotten had very eclectic, catholic
                      tastes in music, stretching from dub reggae to krautrock, with Hawkwind
                      and Van der Graaf Generator on the way, so it's possible that he may
                      have been interested in playing together. But if the initiative came
                      from MacLaren then it was almost certainly a trap.

                      a

                      --
                      [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                      [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                      [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net


                    • mario bucci
                      Hello again. I don t want to overflow this usually silent discussion list, but I can t resist making a comment on something Andy just wrote ... it would lead
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                        Hello again. I don't want to overflow this usually silent discussion list, but I can't resist making a comment on something Andy just wrote ...

                        "it would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies',"

                        I find this extremely interesting, because it gives an example of the different represetnations that existed of HC throughout Europe (since they failed to play outside of it). In Italy no-one would think of HC as a "hippies-group". We saw them as politically engaged militant group (and great musicians, of course). They drew their following in Italy among highly politicised youth (? - well I was young then). You can say that at that time most youth in Italy were politically engaged, and, of course, even within a politicised and left-oriented movement there were heavy class differences. But by-and-large HC's audience was essentially influenced by marxism as compared to 'flower-power/peace&love' philosophies. And I suppose in France it was similar to Italy. It would be interesting to know how one could characterise HC fans in Scandinavia for instance (another region where they enjoyed quite some success) ....

                        m.


                        --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:

                        From: Andy Wilson <andy@...>
                        Subject: Re: [ReRmegacorp] Sex Pistols
                        To: ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 14:15

                         

                        hi Mario

                        mario bucci wrote:
                        > A last point. Andy, where from have you heard of the SP/HC playing
                        > together? It would be interesting to know when (which year) that should
                        > have happened, because there came a point when HC only existed on paper
                        > and on stage, but no longer as a group. But if that had happened early
                        > enough, I feel retrospectively that it has been really a missed opportunity.

                        Tim Hodgkinson once mentioned this to me. I didn't say so at the time
                        but it occured to me that there is another possibility apart from the
                        straightforward idea that the groups together would have made for a good
                        musical/performance /cultural package: I have a sneaking suspicion that
                        this is the kind of thing MacLaren might have proposed, hoping that it
                        would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies', and thus more media
                        sensationalism and attention.

                        Of course, as everyone knows, Johnny Rotten had very eclectic, catholic
                        tastes in music, stretching from dub reggae to krautrock, with Hawkwind
                        and Van der Graaf Generator on the way, so it's possible that he may
                        have been interested in playing together. But if the initiative came
                        from MacLaren then it was almost certainly a trap.

                        a

                        --
                        [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                        [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                        [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net


                      • Bruce Christensen
                        Speaking as someone couldn t care less about the Sex Pistols, umm, could we move on?
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                          Speaking as someone couldn't care less about the Sex Pistols, umm, could we move on?

                          On Feb 24, 2010, at 8:51 AM, mario bucci <iccuboiram@...> wrote:

                           

                          Hello again. I don't want to overflow this usually silent discussion list, but I can't resist making a comment on something Andy just wrote ...

                          "it would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies',"

                          I find this extremely interesting, because it gives an example of the different represetnations that existed of HC throughout Europe (since they failed to play outside of it). In Italy no-one would think of HC as a "hippies-group" . We saw them as politically engaged militant group (and great musicians, of course). They drew their following in Italy among highly politicised youth (? - well I was young then). You can say that at that time most youth in Italy were politically engaged, and, of course, even within a politicised and left-oriented movement there were heavy class differences. But by-and-large HC's audience was essentially influenced by marxism as compared to 'flower-power/ peace&love' philosophies. And I suppose in France it was similar to Italy. It would be interesting to know how one could characterise HC fans in Scandinavia for instance (another region where they enjoyed quite some success) ....

                          m.


                          --- On Wed, 24/2/10, Andy Wilson <andy@lshift. net> wrote:

                          From: Andy Wilson <andy@lshift. net>
                          Subject: Re: [ReRmegacorp] Sex Pistols
                          To: ReRmegacorp@ yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 14:15

                           

                          hi Mario

                          mario bucci wrote:
                          > A last point. Andy, where from have you heard of the SP/HC playing
                          > together? It would be interesting to know when (which year) that should
                          > have happened, because there came a point when HC only existed on paper
                          > and on stage, but no longer as a group. But if that had happened early
                          > enough, I feel retrospectively that it has been really a missed opportunity.

                          Tim Hodgkinson once mentioned this to me. I didn't say so at the time
                          but it occured to me that there is another possibility apart from the
                          straightforward idea that the groups together would have made for a good
                          musical/performance /cultural package: I have a sneaking suspicion that
                          this is the kind of thing MacLaren might have proposed, hoping that it
                          would lead to a fight between punks and 'hippies', and thus more media
                          sensationalism and attention.

                          Of course, as everyone knows, Johnny Rotten had very eclectic, catholic
                          tastes in music, stretching from dub reggae to krautrock, with Hawkwind
                          and Van der Graaf Generator on the way, so it's possible that he may
                          have been interested in playing together. But if the initiative came
                          from MacLaren then it was almost certainly a trap.

                          a

                          --
                          [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                          [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                          [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net


                        • Andy Wilson
                          ... no. we have to remain stuck at precisely this point until you realise the errors of your ways. does that answer your question? a -- [][][] Andy Wilson
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                            Bruce Christensen wrote:
                            > Speaking as someone couldn't care less about the Sex Pistols, umm, could
                            > we move on?

                            no. we have to remain stuck at precisely this point until you realise
                            the errors of your ways.

                            does that answer your question?


                            a


                            --
                            [][][] Andy Wilson | mob: +44 (0)7739 908 253
                            [][] Managing Director | tel: +44 (0)20 7729 7060
                            [] [] LShift Ltd | web: www.lshift.net
                          • Richard
                            ... Cruel, but fair.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                              --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Bruce Christensen wrote:
                              > > Speaking as someone couldn't care less about the Sex Pistols, umm, could
                              > > we move on?
                              >
                              > no. we have to remain stuck at precisely this point until you realise
                              > the errors of your ways.
                              >
                              > does that answer your question?

                              Cruel, but fair.
                            • ccc@megacorp.u-net.com
                              hi i can confirm that there were talks about a henry cow sex pistols gig; we had a lot of mutual friends at the time.. but in the event it never happened, not
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                                hi

                                i can confirm that there were talks about a henry cow sex pistols gig; we
                                had a lot of mutual friends at the time.. but in the event it never
                                happened, not because either party was against but simply because no one
                                took the idea forward and organised it.

                                nice to see things hotting up recently in the newsgroup

                                best

                                chris cutler
                              • Glenn c
                                175 well behaved members so far anyone else with an interest in the kind of music ReR deal with is more than welcome to join particularly if they have a trove
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                                  175 well behaved members so far
                                   
                                  anyone else with an interest in the kind of music ReR deal with is more than welcome to join
                                   
                                  particularly if they have a trove unreleased this heat footage / tapes they're willing to share
                                   
                                  On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 5:48 PM, <ccc@megacorp.u-net.com> wrote:
                                   

                                  hi

                                  i can confirm that there were talks about a henry cow sex pistols gig; we
                                  had a lot of mutual friends at the time.. but in the event it never
                                  happened, not because either party was against but simply because no one
                                  took the idea forward and organised it.

                                  nice to see things hotting up recently in the newsgroup

                                  best

                                  chris cutler


                                • mario bucci
                                  Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember when exactly (which year) these talks took place? Thank you in
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 24, 2010
                                    Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember when exactly (which year) these talks took place?

                                    Thank you in advance, and I hope you have a great time in Modena next Monday celebrating R. Wyatt.

                                    Mario

                                    --- On Wed, 24/2/10, ccc@megacorp.u-net.com <ccc@megacorp.u-net.com> wrote:

                                    From: ccc@megacorp.u-net.com <ccc@megacorp.u-net.com>
                                    Subject: [ReRmegacorp] Re: Sex Pistols
                                    To: ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, 24 February, 2010, 18:48

                                     

                                    hi

                                    i can confirm that there were talks about a henry cow sex pistols gig; we
                                    had a lot of mutual friends at the time.. but in the event it never
                                    happened, not because either party was against but simply because no one
                                    took the idea forward and organised it.

                                    nice to see things hotting up recently in the newsgroup

                                    best

                                    chris cutler


                                  • ccc@megacorp.u-net.com
                                    ... it was 1977, there was also some talk of fred producing a SP album which also came to nothing. sue steward, who had been the virgin publicity agent was
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 26, 2010
                                      mario bucci writes:

                                      > Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember when exactly (which year) these talks took place?

                                      it was 1977, there was also some talk of fred producing a SP album which
                                      also came to nothing. sue steward, who had been the virgin publicity agent
                                      was working with the SP then, and jaimie and sophie knew HC...

                                      best

                                      c
                                    • Darren
                                      ... [Snip] ... Each generation struggles or strives to find its own identity... or not as the case may be... if you d have been *growing* up listening to the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 26, 2010
                                        --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wilson <andy@...> wrote:

                                        [Snip]

                                        > Finally, I described the Pistols as a 'determinate negation'
                                        > because they really did seem to be (at the heart of) the reflux
                                        > against progressive rock, a kind of antithesis, as opposed to
                                        > an alternative. I remember being a working class boy at a posh,
                                        > paying grammar school (on a grant, you understand) and finding
                                        > the progressive rock music that my classmates listened to to be
                                        > utterly alien to me, to the point of incomprehensibility. The
                                        > lyrical concerns, artwork, conspicuous musicianship et al all
                                        > screamed to me that this was an elitist music - worse still,
                                        > the marketing of the music seemed to be predicated on the elitism,
                                        > is you see what I mean. They point of it all seemed to be to
                                        > 'tame' and defang rock music to make it acceptable to the
                                        > middle class.
                                        > I much preferred reggae (not an unpopular choice in that place
                                        > and time - Coventry, the early 70s), and I remember thinking at
                                        > the time, wouldn't it be great if someone made rock music that
                                        > was as hip as reggae. When I heard the Sex Pistols I heard for
                                        > the first time in my life contemporary rock music that actually
                                        > spoke to me. If that isn't an artistic achievement, or of artistic
                                        > significance, I don't know what is.

                                        Each generation struggles or strives to find its own identity... or not as the case may be... if you'd have been "*growing* up" listening to the Sex Pistols oeuvre (or Progressive Rock, or RIO or...) then as part of your own adolescent, maturation process you might have been inclined to perceive them as being "pop" or "popular" and wanted something else...

                                        I remember seeing the Sex Pistols on Top of The Pops (I think it was) and thinking, "what the hell is this", obviously perceiving it as some kind of threat at the time...
                                      • marsfieldmusic
                                        From the Guardian website about a week ago: John Lydon: I don t hate Pink Floyd Contrary to his infamous T-shirt slogan, the punk-rock patriarch is such a fan
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 28, 2010
                                          From the Guardian website about a week ago:


                                          John Lydon: I don't hate Pink Floyd

                                          Contrary to his infamous T-shirt slogan, the punk-rock patriarch is such a fan of the prog-rock royals that he came close to accepting an invitation to perform live with them


                                          http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/feb/18/john-lydon-pink-floyd




                                          --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Darren" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, Andy Wilson <andy@> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > [Snip]
                                          >
                                          > > Finally, I described the Pistols as a 'determinate negation'
                                          > > because they really did seem to be (at the heart of) the reflux
                                          > > against progressive rock, a kind of antithesis, as opposed to
                                          > > an alternative. I remember being a working class boy at a posh,
                                          > > paying grammar school (on a grant, you understand) and finding
                                          > > the progressive rock music that my classmates listened to to be
                                          > > utterly alien to me, to the point of incomprehensibility. The
                                          > > lyrical concerns, artwork, conspicuous musicianship et al all
                                          > > screamed to me that this was an elitist music - worse still,
                                          > > the marketing of the music seemed to be predicated on the elitism,
                                          > > is you see what I mean. They point of it all seemed to be to
                                          > > 'tame' and defang rock music to make it acceptable to the
                                          > > middle class.
                                          > > I much preferred reggae (not an unpopular choice in that place
                                          > > and time - Coventry, the early 70s), and I remember thinking at
                                          > > the time, wouldn't it be great if someone made rock music that
                                          > > was as hip as reggae. When I heard the Sex Pistols I heard for
                                          > > the first time in my life contemporary rock music that actually
                                          > > spoke to me. If that isn't an artistic achievement, or of artistic
                                          > > significance, I don't know what is.
                                          >
                                          > Each generation struggles or strives to find its own identity... or not as the case may be... if you'd have been "*growing* up" listening to the Sex Pistols oeuvre (or Progressive Rock, or RIO or...) then as part of your own adolescent, maturation process you might have been inclined to perceive them as being "pop" or "popular" and wanted something else...
                                          >
                                          > I remember seeing the Sex Pistols on Top of The Pops (I think it was) and thinking, "what the hell is this", obviously perceiving it as some kind of threat at the time...
                                          >
                                        • Richard
                                          In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, marsfieldmusic wrote: From the Guardian website about a week ago: John Lydon: I don t hate Pink Floyd
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
                                            In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "marsfieldmusic" <marsfield@...> wrote:
                                            From the Guardian website about a week ago:
                                            John Lydon: I don't hate Pink Floyd
                                            Contrary to his infamous T-shirt slogan, the punk-rock patriarch is such a fan of the prog-rock royals that he came close to accepting an invitation to perform live with them
                                            http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/feb/18/john-lydon-pink-floyd

                                            I wouldn't advise anyone to formulate a correlation between a person's taste and something written on a T-shirt s/he wears.

                                            I used to have a job helping to erect marquees for large-scale concerts & received several freebie T-shirts as part of my recompense for said endeavours. A couple survive & are still worn, but the fact remains that I have no feelings whatsoever with regard to Cliff Richard and/or Torvill & Dean. Q.E.D.
                                          • Richard
                                            In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, ccc@... wrote: mario bucci writes: Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
                                              In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, ccc@... wrote:

                                              mario bucci writes:

                                              Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember when exactly (which year) these talks took place?

                                              it was 1977, there was also some talk of fred producing a SP album which also came to nothing. sue steward, who had been the virgin publicity agent, was working with the SP then, and jaimie and sophie knew HC...

                                              best

                                              c

                                              There was also talk as I recall [though talk may have been all it was] of Syd Barrett being approached to produce the Sex Pistols.
                                            • Charlie Mason
                                              The Damned were trying to get Syd to produce an album of theirs. Not surprisingly, practical matters scuppered that. Charlie ... From: Richard
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 3, 2010
                                                The Damned were trying to get Syd to produce an album of theirs. Not surprisingly, practical matters scuppered that.
                                                Charlie

                                                --- On Wed, 3/3/10, Richard <richardmmason@...> wrote:

                                                From: Richard <richardmmason@...>
                                                Subject: [ReRmegacorp] Re: Sex Pistols
                                                To: ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Wednesday, 3 March, 2010, 17:05

                                                 
                                                In ReRmegacorp@ yahoogroups. com, ccc@... wrote:

                                                mario bucci writes:

                                                Hi Chris and thank you for this piece of information. By chance, do you happen to remember when exactly (which year) these talks took place?

                                                it was 1977, there was also some talk of fred producing a SP album which also came to nothing. sue steward, who had been the virgin publicity agent, was working with the SP then, and jaimie and sophie knew HC...

                                                best

                                                c

                                                There was also talk as I recall [though talk may have been all it was] of Syd Barrett being approached to produce the Sex Pistols.


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