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Re: non-discussion of King Crimson

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  • darrenwlsy
    ... What bogged down early King Crimson albums, from Wake of Poseidon onwards, right through till Fripp met up with Wetton, Bruford, Cross and the amazing
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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      --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, tlaw1@... wrote:

      >>>> I think Lizard is up there with most Henry Cow stuff.
      >
      >>> Ooh! Glad to see someone agrees!
      >>> What a vastly under-rated album.
      >
      >> Yeah, especially by Fripp himself (God knows why) which
      >> doesn't help matters.
      >
      > He says it didn't turn out the way he had hoped.
      > I guess he can't accept it for what it is.

      What bogged down early King Crimson albums, from Wake of Poseidon
      onwards, right through till Fripp met up with Wetton, Bruford, Cross
      and the amazing Jamie Muir, was consistency of band member
      personnel... plus most band members found it difficult working
      alongside Fripp himself.

      When McDonald and Giles announced they were leaving during the 1969
      tour of America, Fripp's heart sank ("Crimson was everything to
      me...") and that essentially created a situation where albums were
      created with Fripp creating the framework and Sinfield providing the
      lyrics, until of course Fripp reached a point where he couldn't work
      with Sinfield either...

      > Too bad... I always wanted to hear the recent KC incarnations do
      > "Happy Family". Fripp could play his piano samples, even. And
      > they could do some noisy improv in between the verses. Oh well...

      There are some very interesting dynamics on Lizard with fast tempo
      changes, which would have been rather difficult to pull off live...
      they tried to play Great Deceiver (from Starless & Bible Black) live
      and didn't always make it...

      That laughter from Gordon Haskell on Happy Family is Haskell laughing
      at the absurdity of the situation...
    • darrenwlsy
      ... Great Deceiver (the 4CD box set) is superb ... The live improvisations, by the Double Trio captured during their 1995 live touring, called THRaKaTTaK
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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        --- "John Ireland" <girovend@...> wrote:

        > I used to listen to loads of Crimson. '72-'74 line up being a
        > particular favourite.

        "Great Deceiver" (the 4CD box set) is superb

        > I find the later stuff almost unlistenable...... the double trio
        > never really worked for me as I found it too cluttered although
        > afterwards when the band split off into different configurations
        > seemed an interesting experiment for me.

        The live improvisations, by the "Double Trio" captured during their
        1995 live touring, called THRaKaTTaK are worth listening to...

        > On side note the 2 Conventum re-issues dropped through the letterbox
        > today from ReR.
        >
        > Wonderful stuff....... I missed out the first time these were issued
        > on cd; I wasn't going to miss out again.

        I was fortunate enough to acquire a double vinyl album of Conventum on
        eBay a few years ago, after having played the marvellous Les 4
        Guitaristes de L'Apocalypso-bar and the two vinyl albums (from ReR) to
        death... I'm also looking forward to getting both CD releases...
      • darrenwlsy
        ... I personally cut my music teeth on King Crimson, having spent years listening to classic prog-rock (Genesis, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, etc.) and Fripp was
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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          --- "kjeld6288" <kjeld.jensen@...> wrote:

          > Now that we are discussing the merits of Crimson vs the ReR stable,
          > I can't resist quoting the message below from Elephant-Talk where
          > CC reveals what he thinks.

          I personally cut my music teeth on King Crimson, having spent years
          listening to classic "prog-rock" (Genesis, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull,
          etc.) and Fripp was and is unique in my view, but he's certainly not
          in a field all on his own...

          I'm sure there must be dozens of guitar players "out there" who I've
          never heard of, but the ones that really make an impression on myself
          are Fripp and Fred Frith, whose creativity, diversity, compositional
          ability, not to mention humour is universal... his work alongside
          Chris Cutler in Henry Cow, as well as Art Bears and their live work is
          superb and represents very good food for the music soul as well as ears...

          Then there's Frank Zappa; the German innovator and inventor of
          guitars, Hans Reichel and Henry Kasier (best albums for me, The Five
          Heavenly Truths & Trout Mask Replica).

          I recently had opportunity of listening to a recording of Henry K.
          interviewing the great British Derek Bailey, plus listening to some of
          his music... quite amazing...

          > Personally, I like both, but feel that I'm pretty much done with
          > all the earlier stuff.

          Yes, I'm also of the view that you can like and enjoy both, without
          there being any contradictions, as it were...

          Chris C. mentioned Fripp's "Frippertronics" and Fripp is often on
          record as saying it was introduced to him by his good friend, Brian
          Eno, although Terry Riley was also experimenting with "tape loops" a
          long time ago... personally I prefer "Frippertronics" which appear to
          me to have a rather more organic sound, over the more sophisticated,
          but "processed to hell" Soundscapes...

          > My current favourites from the Crimson stable are the Projekcts
          > splinter groups which contains a lot more improvisation (although
          > it isn't free improv by any stretch).

          I don't think ProjeKct Two, 3 or Four were "free improv" having a lot
          of their ideas originating in studios, but ProjeKct One, played over 4
          nights at the Jazz Cafe in Camden Town, in London, England in Dec
          1997, was rather wild and free, as I recall...

          [Snipped the Elephant talk messages below for reasons of brevity]
        • darrenwlsy
          ... [Snip] ... An associated leap into Captain Beefheart there! My apologies... that Kaiser album should read, Lemon Fish Tweezer...
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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            --- "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:

            [Snip]

            > Then there's Frank Zappa; the German innovator and inventor of
            > guitars, Hans Reichel and Henry Kasier (best albums for me, The Five
            > Heavenly Truths & Trout Mask Replica).

            >>>>

            An associated leap into Captain Beefheart there!

            My apologies... that Kaiser album should read, Lemon Fish Tweezer...
          • Chris
            ... album. ... Indiscipline ... some real ... Just to add my own two penn orth - I could die happily if I never heard any pre Larks Tongues King Crimson again.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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              --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, tlaw1@... wrote:
              >
              > > I think Lizard is up there with most Henry Cow stuff.
              >
              > Ooh!   Glad to see someone agrees!  What a vastly under-rated
              album.
              >
              > > > ... there's always Elephant Talk, although I always preferred
              Indiscipline
              > > > on the Discipline album.
              >
              > Me too.   It's one of only pieces they were doing then that had
              some real
              > improv possibilities.  
              > I liked the 90's big band version (live) even more.  
              >

              Just to add my own two penn'orth - I could die happily if I never
              heard any pre Larks Tongues King Crimson again. The early albums
              have dated badly and are very hit and miss at their best, and I
              think that mainstream rock critics have confused popularity with
              influence.

              Having said that, the post LTIA live albums issued by DGM contain a
              lot of genuinely exciting music - The Night Watch, Great Deceiver,
              Absent Lovers, Vroom Vroom and Thrakkattak. The last two, by the 90s
              double trio line up, are particular favourites.

              I don't know that it's particularly appropriate to compare KC with
              the ReR stable. Aside from a penchant for improvisation, there's not
              that much common ground, and to be fair to KC they were probably the
              highest profile band to improvise on stage in the mid 70s, although
              they were nowhere near the first or the best.
            • Alan
              I m not so sure anymore that I d call Fripp particularly diverse, mainly just Crimson and soundscapes. I ve bought loads of Friths music over the last couple
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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                I'm not so sure anymore that I'd call Fripp particularly diverse,
                mainly just Crimson and soundscapes. I've bought loads of Friths music
                over the last couple of years, and it ranges from quirky pop (Cheap At
                Twice The Price), avante prog (for lack of a better description - H.
                Cow, Art Bears), punk jazz (Massacre), string quartets, sax quartets,
                compositions using others techniques, improv- free or otherwise, etc.
                The thing that may impress me more than his range is the fact that he
                seems to do them all so well. I don't throw around the word genius,
                but I would call Fred one.

                Alan


                --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I'm sure there must be dozens of guitar players "out there" who I've
                > never heard of, but the ones that really make an impression on myself
                > are Fripp and Fred Frith, whose creativity, diversity, compositional
                > ability, not to mention humour is universal... his work alongside
                > Chris Cutler in Henry Cow, as well as Art Bears and their live work
                is
                > superb and represents very good food for the music soul as well as
                ears...
                >
              • Alan
                I went to London (from Philadelphia) to see ProjeKct One. While I was there, I came across a magazine that mentioned a band playing called, if I remember
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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                  I went to London (from Philadelphia) to see ProjeKct One. While I was
                  there, I came across a magazine that mentioned a band playing called,
                  if I remember correctly, Timescales, which consisted of Cutler, Frith,
                  and others. I hadn't at that point listened to them for years, but
                  what a great opportunity to hear some more improvised music while
                  there. I was having trouble finding the arts center (or shall I
                  write 'centre' since this is London I'm writing about?). I got to this
                  street that was a little too quiet and I was feeling nervous, as well
                  as being late. Finally, I saw the center across the street. Not
                  thinking, because I was in a rush, I looked the wrong way crossing the
                  street. I immediately heard HOOONNNNKKK!!!!! I of course ran back on
                  the sidewalk, feeling lucky to be in one piece. When I got to the
                  center, I was informed that it was sold out. I had to laugh at that.

                  Did anyone here attend the Timescales show? I'd love to know about it.

                  Alan


                  --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- "kjeld6288" <kjeld.jensen@> wrote:

                  >
                  > I don't think ProjeKct Two, 3 or Four were "free improv" having a lot
                  > of their ideas originating in studios, but ProjeKct One, played over
                  4
                  > nights at the Jazz Cafe in Camden Town, in London, England in Dec
                  > 1997, was rather wild and free, as I recall...
                  >
                  > [Snipped the Elephant talk messages below for reasons of brevity]
                  >
                • darrenwlsy
                  I wouldn t disagree with any of that actually... when I mentioned Fred s name below, ALL the resulting descriptives were meant for him ... who has played with
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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                    I wouldn't disagree with any of that actually... when I mentioned
                    Fred's name below, ALL the resulting descriptives were meant for him
                    :-)... although I do think Fripp is a very creative artiste/musician
                    who has played with a variety of folk, I don't think he's quite as
                    diverse as Frith, no...

                    As a further example, Fred has also played a variety of instruments
                    over the years in a variety of different contexts... his violin
                    playing is wonderful... I'm sure I once read or heard a story of him
                    playing a chair... if anyone can confirm/verify that, I'd be interested...

                    --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <muslchead@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I'm not so sure anymore that I'd call Fripp particularly diverse,
                    > mainly just Crimson and soundscapes. I've bought loads of Friths
                    > music over the last couple of years, and it ranges from quirky pop
                    > (Cheap At Twice The Price), avante prog (for lack of a better
                    > description - H. Cow, Art Bears), punk jazz (Massacre), string
                    > quartets, sax quartets, compositions using others techniques,
                    > improv- free or otherwise, etc.
                    > The thing that may impress me more than his range is the fact
                    > that he seems to do them all so well. I don't throw around the
                    > word genius, but I would call Fred one.
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'm sure there must be dozens of guitar players "out there" who
                    > > I've never heard of, but the ones that really make an impression
                    > > on myself are Fripp and Fred Frith, whose creativity, diversity,
                    > > compositional ability, not to mention humour is universal... his
                    > > work alongside Chris Cutler in Henry Cow, as well as Art Bears
                    > > and their live work is superb and represents very good food for
                    > > the music soul as well as ears...
                    > >
                    >
                  • Alan
                    Okay, gotcha. I ve never heard anyone who approaches Freds diversity, but I was talking to someone when I saw him in NY recently about Elliot Sharp, and Sharp
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 18, 2006
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                      Okay, gotcha. I've never heard anyone who approaches Freds diversity,
                      but I was talking to someone when I saw him in NY recently about
                      Elliot Sharp, and Sharp also seems like he's all over the map. I
                      don't know his music, but I've known of him for years. Have any of
                      you heard him?

                      Fred playing a chair? Wouldn't put it past him. One of the things he
                      did in NY was wet his finger and slide it on the guitar body, making
                      musical squeaks. Also poured rice in a metal cup on top of the
                      guitar, then directly on the guitar. Seems like anything in his hands
                      can be musical.

                      Alan


                      --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I wouldn't disagree with any of that actually... when I mentioned
                      > Fred's name below, ALL the resulting descriptives were meant for him
                      > :-)... although I do think Fripp is a very creative artiste/musician
                      > who has played with a variety of folk, I don't think he's quite as
                      > diverse as Frith, no...
                      >
                      > As a further example, Fred has also played a variety of instruments
                      > over the years in a variety of different contexts... his violin
                      > playing is wonderful... I'm sure I once read or heard a story of him
                      > playing a chair... if anyone can confirm/verify that, I'd be
                      interested...
                      >
                      > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <muslchead@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I'm not so sure anymore that I'd call Fripp particularly diverse,
                      > > mainly just Crimson and soundscapes. I've bought loads of Friths
                      > > music over the last couple of years, and it ranges from quirky pop
                      > > (Cheap At Twice The Price), avante prog (for lack of a better
                      > > description - H. Cow, Art Bears), punk jazz (Massacre), string
                      > > quartets, sax quartets, compositions using others techniques,
                      > > improv- free or otherwise, etc.
                      > > The thing that may impress me more than his range is the fact
                      > > that he seems to do them all so well. I don't throw around the
                      > > word genius, but I would call Fred one.
                      > >
                      > > Alan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@>
                      wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I'm sure there must be dozens of guitar players "out there" who
                      > > > I've never heard of, but the ones that really make an impression
                      > > > on myself are Fripp and Fred Frith, whose creativity, diversity,
                      > > > compositional ability, not to mention humour is universal... his
                      > > > work alongside Chris Cutler in Henry Cow, as well as Art Bears
                      > > > and their live work is superb and represents very good food for
                      > > > the music soul as well as ears...
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Andrew Cox
                      Re the chair - I know that Derek Bailey once played a chair. Don t know if Fred did too.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 19, 2006
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                        Re the chair - I know that Derek Bailey once played a chair. Don't
                        know if Fred did too.


                        Tuesday, July 18, 2006, 11:21:56 PM, darrenwlsy wrote:

                        > I wouldn't disagree with any of that actually... when I mentioned
                        > Fred's name below, ALL the resulting descriptives were meant for him
                        > :-)... although I do think Fripp is a very creative artiste/musician
                        > who has played with a variety of folk, I don't think he's quite as
                        > diverse as Frith, no...

                        > As a further example, Fred has also played a variety of instruments
                        > over the years in a variety of different contexts... his violin
                        > playing is wonderful... I'm sure I once read or heard a story of him
                        > playing a chair... if anyone can confirm/verify that, I'd be interested...
                      • Dan Coffey
                        Heard Elliott Sharp play once with Zeena Parkins about 10 years ago in Buffalo. He was amazing, but I was pretty focused on what Parkins was doing. ... --
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 19, 2006
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                          Heard Elliott Sharp play once with Zeena Parkins about 10 years ago in Buffalo. He was amazing, but I was pretty focused on what Parkins was doing.

                          On 7/18/06, Alan <muslchead@...> wrote:

                          Okay, gotcha. I've never heard anyone who approaches Freds diversity,
                          but I was talking to someone when I saw him in NY recently about
                          Elliot Sharp, and Sharp also seems like he's all over the map. I
                          don't know his music, but I've known of him for years. Have any of
                          you heard him?

                          Fred playing a chair? Wouldn't put it past him. One of the things he
                          did in NY was wet his finger and slide it on the guitar body, making
                          musical squeaks. Also poured rice in a metal cup on top of the
                          guitar, then directly on the guitar. Seems like anything in his hands
                          can be musical.



                          Alan

                          --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I wouldn't disagree with any of that actually... when I mentioned
                          > Fred's name below, ALL the resulting descriptives were meant for him
                          > :-)... although I do think Fripp is a very creative artiste/musician
                          > who has played with a variety of folk, I don't think he's quite as
                          > diverse as Frith, no...
                          >
                          > As a further example, Fred has also played a variety of instruments
                          > over the years in a variety of different contexts... his violin
                          > playing is wonderful... I'm sure I once read or heard a story of him
                          > playing a chair... if anyone can confirm/verify that, I'd be
                          interested...
                          >
                          > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <muslchead@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I'm not so sure anymore that I'd call Fripp particularly diverse,
                          > > mainly just Crimson and soundscapes. I've bought loads of Friths
                          > > music over the last couple of years, and it ranges from quirky pop
                          > > (Cheap At Twice The Price), avante prog (for lack of a better
                          > > description - H. Cow, Art Bears), punk jazz (Massacre), string
                          > > quartets, sax quartets, compositions using others techniques,
                          > > improv- free or otherwise, etc.
                          > > The thing that may impress me more than his range is the fact
                          > > that he seems to do them all so well. I don't throw around the
                          > > word genius, but I would call Fred one.
                          > >
                          > > Alan
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@>
                          wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm sure there must be dozens of guitar players "out there" who
                          > > > I've never heard of, but the ones that really make an impression
                          > > > on myself are Fripp and Fred Frith, whose creativity, diversity,
                          > > > compositional ability, not to mention humour is universal... his
                          > > > work alongside Chris Cutler in Henry Cow, as well as Art Bears
                          > > > and their live work is superb and represents very good food for
                          > > > the music soul as well as ears...
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >




                          --
                          http://hyperhypo.org
                        • tlaw1@sc.rr.com
                          ... I heard him 6 or 8 years ago here in Columbia (SC) doing a solo guitar/laptop set, and it was truly amazing. I d love to find a recording of that (or a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 19, 2006
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                            > > Elliot Sharp, and Sharp also seems like he's all over the map. I
                            > > don't know his music, but I've known of him for years. Have any of
                            > > you heard him?

                            I heard him 6 or 8 years ago here in Columbia (SC) doing a solo guitar/laptop
                            set, and it was truly amazing. I'd love to find a recording of that (or a
                            similar) show.
                          • darrenwlsy
                            I used to have the Abstract Repressionism album (1990-99: Elliott Sharp/Orchestra Carbon)...
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 19, 2006
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                              I used to have the Abstract Repressionism album (1990-99: Elliott
                              Sharp/Orchestra Carbon)...

                              --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, tlaw1@... wrote:

                              >>> Elliot Sharp, and Sharp also seems like he's all over the map. I
                              >>> don't know his music, but I've known of him for years. Have any of
                              >>> you heard him?
                              >
                              > I heard him 6 or 8 years ago here in Columbia (SC) doing a solo
                              > guitar/laptop set, and it was truly amazing. I'd love to find a
                              > recording of that (or a similar) show.
                              >
                            • darrenwlsy
                              ... He played a session on BBC Radio 3 s Mixing It a few years back, and had recorded some music specially for the event... one piece involved a paintbrush
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 19, 2006
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                                --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "Alan" <muslchead@...> wrote:

                                > Fred playing a chair? Wouldn't put it past him. One of the things
                                > he did in NY was wet his finger and slide it on the guitar body,
                                > making musical squeaks. Also poured rice in a metal cup on top of
                                > the guitar, then directly on the guitar. Seems like anything in
                                > his hands can be musical.

                                >>>>

                                He played a session on BBC Radio 3's "Mixing It" a few years back, and
                                had recorded some music specially for the event... one piece involved
                                a paintbrush being brushed over the strings... created quite a rhythm

                                One of his "finest hours" for me, is Technology of Tears.
                              • kjeld6288
                                ... Fred s finest hour sounds to me like a worthy topic. I would go for the Massacre Killing Time album, in particular the short Corridor track. High sustain,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 21, 2006
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                                  --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com, "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
                                  >

                                  > One of his "finest hours" for me, is Technology of Tears.

                                  Fred's finest hour sounds to me like a worthy topic. I would go for
                                  the Massacre Killing Time album, in particular the short Corridor
                                  track. High sustain, wonderfully controlled noise over a pounding
                                  rhythm section. More than any other track it brought home to me how
                                  beautiful (yes, beautiful) noise can be.

                                  Also the guitar solo from Ruins on Henry Cow concerts. I've seen
                                  others quote this as one of the great guitar solos of all time.

                                  Kjeld
                                • Glenn c
                                  having heard probably less than 40% of fred s available discography I m looking forward to finding out if he s done anything stronger than clearing or
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 21, 2006
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                                    having heard probably less than 40% of fred's available discography I'm looking forward to finding out if he's done anything stronger than "clearing" or "speechless" 
                                     
                                    has he done any other solo instrumental albums that would suit someone who enjoyed both  "guitar solos" and "clearing" in particular?


                                     
                                    On 7/21/06, kjeld6288 < kjeld.jensen@...> wrote:

                                    --- In ReRmegacorp@yahoogroups.com , "darrenwlsy" <darrenAIW@...> wrote:
                                    >

                                    > One of his "finest hours" for me, is Technology of Tears.

                                    Fred's finest hour sounds to me like a worthy topic. I would go for
                                    the Massacre Killing Time album, in particular the short Corridor
                                    track. High sustain, wonderfully controlled noise over a pounding
                                    rhythm section. More than any other track it brought home to me how
                                    beautiful (yes, beautiful) noise can be.

                                    Also the guitar solo from Ruins on Henry Cow concerts. I've seen
                                    others quote this as one of the great guitar solos of all time.

                                    Kjeld


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