Fw: [pghratlovers] Re: interesting neruological case with advice and in put
- ----- Original Message -----From: Lindsay PulmanSent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 7:34 PMSubject: Re: [pghratlovers] Re: advise needed for JazmineHI Shaz,Dr. Mike's email is below. Hope it helps some.PIt tumor classicly starts with overall weakness, then inability to hold food in either paw, with the rat trying to eat the food from the floor of the cage. Of course, disease processes can digress from classical signs. I viewed the video a few more times, and I don't think this is pit tumor. Her front end is working too well. I think the one paw food hold is just due to weakness or inability to use the back half to sit up.In addition, there is no head tilt, so I would rule out middle ear infection.The classic spinal nerve root degeneration comes on gradually, and you would have noticed her hunching down in the back more and more. So let's rule that out.I think, with the absence of nasal and/or lung involvement, and no general overall weakness ( just hind end) that Myco can be ruled out.If urination and water intake are normal, and she is not dehydrating, then lets rule out kidney disease.I have seen stroke, both in humans and rats, and her pattern of neurological signs doesn't really fit. Would see more of a whole body, left or right sided thing, and I see the division in the middle of the back. I'm not sure I would consider stroke.We are left with possible GDVII viral meningitis ( good nursing care, keep up the B-12 long term, should bring her through)Or, perhaps one of the oddball things Dr. Mike mentioned, like an embolus from the surgery ( again, good nursing care)Or, perhaps a post anesthetic problem (I am not familiar with this scenario. Ask your vet what anesthetic agent was used, and I'll get back to Dr. Mike with that info).This is a very interesting case. Please keep us posted. I'll let you know what else we come up with.Best regards,Lindsay----- Original Message -----From: HutchinsonTo: Lindsay PulmanSent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:48 PMSubject: Re: ADVICE NEEDED FOR VETERINARIAN, CRITICAL RAT, LINDSAY REQUESTHi Lindsay,I am unable to view the video for some reason. However, given those signs here are my thoughts on possible rule outs:Possible clot thrown from the surgery causing a fibrocartilaginous embolism or strokePossible Pituitary Tumor that was set off coincidentally by the stress of anesthesia, surgery, etc.Anesthetic reaction (if injectable or halothane were used).I like the Vet's treatment approach. Perhaps a tincture of time to give an emboli time to pass or dissolve. (As long as she is eating, drinking, urinating and defecating properly.) Wouldn't hurt to continue the Vit B12 either.Sorry I don't have anymore thoughts...Dr. Mike----- Original Message -----From: ShastaSent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:11 PMSubject: [pghratlovers] Re: advise needed for Jazmine
---This started pretty much right after surgery, there was nothing
gradual about it. There isn't any signs of myco, no rattleing, no
porphyrine, not even anything as much as a sneeze, but I wont rule
that out. She can't sit up to eat normaly, she props herself up with
one front leg and eats and cleans her face with the other then
alternating her paws. I thought with a PT that the stiffness and
paralyisis would start in the front legs? I least that is what I have
read. Her fluid intake is the same as is her urination, her stools
are normal. The only thing she was on after surgery was metacam for
pain for 4 days.
A few days after surgery she couldnt even upright herself at all so
what you see in the video is an improvement to what she was, however
there hasnt been any further improvement with the dex and the B-12
When Merlin and Magic went through there myco and then CHF they
couldnt use their hind legs at all. And she is trying to use them but
it is almost like her brain is going faster then they can respond.
Any advise from Dr. Mike would be great. Shaz
In pghratlovers@ yahoogroups. com, "Lindsay Pulman" <pulman2@... >
> HI Shaz,
> I will give you my thoughts, but will also send this email and
video on to my wonderful rat vet, Dr. Mike Hutchinson, who may be
able to help out.
> Watching the video I think of possible disease states that can
result in a neurological condition like this:
> 1. kidney failure
> 2. pituitary tumor
> 3. spinal nerve root degeneration ( may be precipitated by
GDVII virus, more about that later).
> 4. Mycoplasma infection, inner ear or brain
> There is the distinct possibility that the neurological signs have
nothing to do with the tumor at all, but just occurred at the same
time by coincidence.
> 1. Kidney failure can cause neurological signs with build up of
toxins. Urinalysis can be done, and fluid therapy may help if
warranted. However, you probably would have seen a big increase in
water intake and urine output.
> 2. Pituitary tumor can start like this with imbalance and
progress to poor proprioception ( inability to place the limbs and
feet properly) and inability to hold food in the front paws. Is she
eating and holding her food normally? Therapy with prednisone can
help shrink the tumor temporarily. Carafate and antibiotics are also
> 3. Spinal nerve root degeneration (SNRD) is common in old rats,
and can cause this type of gait in the hind end. It usually comes on
gradually, with the rat squatting down in the back more and more,
unable to keep the hind end lifted high enough to walk. The cause of
this syndrome was never really clear. I am wondering now, with the
new info I read on the rat virus GDVII if some or the majority of
SNRD is caused by this virus, usually latent and without clinical
signs, suddenly proliferating and causing spinal meningitis. The
sudden proliferation can be stimulated by a stress or another disease
process occurring. Apparently a large number of pet rats carry the
virus. Perhaps the stress of anesthesia and surgery initiated this.
No way to tell though. Even if you could get a blood sample, and sent
it out for ELISA testing, a positive is meaningless without a
previous sample to compare to. It is worth considering. This is
generally not a fatal condition, but makes them invalids with special
> 4. Mycoplasma infection is very common in all pet rats. The
immune system keeps it in check until it weakens, and certainly
surgery can be enough of a stress to cause this. It is possible that
she has an inner ear infection causing the inability to keep her
balance. Treatment consists of prednisone ( with a decreasing dose
over about 2 weeks) along with agressive antibiotic therapy that
includes Baytril, doxy or both. Rats can recover completely or
recover with some residual damage.
> Doses of all the drugs mentioned above can be found in Rat
Guide online, or in Deb Ducommun's book Rat Health Care, or Dr.
Hutchinson can provide appropriate doses for your vet. Rat doses can
be quite different than dog and cat doses ( sometimes much higher) so
if your vet is not rat oriented, we can help out.
> Certainly good supportive care - making sure she stays
hydrated, she is eating and urinating normally, and she is not in
pain, is called for.
> I hope that Dr. Hutchinson can shed some light on what is
happening, and give you and your vet some ideas about diagnosis and
> I will forward this to him and then send you his reply.
> Let us know how things progress!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shasta
> To: pghratlovers@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 12:04 PM
> Subject: [pghratlovers] advise needed for Jazmine
> A little over three weeks ago Jazmine, a female rescue who will
> two the end of April, had a large fatty tumor removed from her
> by her shoulders. The day after the surgery she was tipping over
> her left side where the majority of the tumor used to be. I
> it was because the weight wasnt there any more so she had to
> her even balance. A few days later, she was showing signs of hind
> paralyisis, twisting at her waist and dragging her hind end, but
> moving her feet.Called the vet on monday teh 19th..appointment
> scheduled for that friday the 23rd. Between monday and friday she
> started improveing a little. She was able to stand and walk a few
> steps without tipping over or dragging her hind legs, but they
> still very slow to react.
> She was taken back into the vet and he assessed her. She has
> reflexes but they are slow, she also responds to pain in her hind
> feet, tail, and her hind legs..but this is also slow to react.
> vet feels that there was possibly some swelling from surgery that
> could be pinching a nerve. So she was put on dexamethasone .1cc
> a day for seven days and B-12 vitamin .1cc once a day for seven
> That was seven days ago, and there is very little improvement. He
> perplexed on what else could be causeing this. Any ideas or help
> would be great. Here is a video taken of her yesterday so
> can see what I mean if it works. Thank you. Shaz of the
> rat rescue
> http://s6.photobuck et.com/albums/ y247/merlinsmagi c/?
> action=view& current=DSCN0728 .flv