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Rasputin an Avadhuta

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  • Umesh
    OM! My religion is Siddha-marga (aka Guru-marga) within the Avadhuta (also spelled Avadhut and Avadhoot ) tradition. With this backround and from much of
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 16, 2004
      OM!

      My religion is Siddha-marga (aka Guru-marga) within the Avadhuta
      (also spelled "Avadhut" and "Avadhoot") tradition. With this
      backround and from much of what I've been reading about Rasputin (and
      from some comments by some Gurus) I say that SPIRITUALLY speaking
      Rasputin was in the Siddha and Avadhuta tradition. He was
      Enlightened. He essentially said (and sometimes behaved) like other
      Enlightened beings. Drukpa Kunley and Milarepa are two who are known
      to be in the "Crazy Wisdom" traditions. Kunley had many lovers.
      Milarepa once urinated on a group of theologions as a teaching to
      them on their absence of spirituality even though they were respected
      by religious and societal orthodoxy.

      Rasputin was an adherant of the literally illegal Khlysty (sometimes
      spelled "Chlysti")religion. The Khlysty, which literally mean the Men
      of God, are essentially mystical. The Khlysty religion appears to be
      very much within the Tantric tradition which basic tenant is "That by
      which other people fall, we rise." The Khylsty, like in Siddha-marga,
      believe in multiple Incarnations (Avatars) and considered Rasputin to
      be such an Incarnation. Now this is what seems to trip up the Western
      mind: was Rasputin a saint or sinner? Anyone who is objective cannot
      deny that he possessed supernatural powers (siddhis in my religion)
      but the historical facts equally tell of his womanizing and drinking.
      So some authors conclude that Rasputin was both saint and sinner.
      THAT IS BECAUSE THE WEST IS SO OVERWHELMINGLY DUALISTIC. The tendency
      is to see the Divine only in that which is socially good. But God
      equally exists in much of what society considers bad. HAVING BECOME
      ONE WITH GOD THE ENLIGHTENED ONE HAS GONE BEYOND CONVENTIONAL
      STANDARDS OF GOOD AND EVIL AND HAS BECOME ONE WITH GOD, THE ABSOLUTE
      GOOD. Convention no longer binds him or her. In fact, such a person
      no longer has an individuality/will of his/her own. Hariwansh Lal
      Poonja, an Enlightened Guru who taught that Rasputin was also
      Enlightened, in speaking of how an Enlightened Being behaves had this
      to say:

      "There is nothing to do and nothing not to do. What can you do in
      this state? Nothing. Whatever you do after enlightenment is just a
      reaction to the circumstances around you. 'Should I do this, or
      should I do that?' are questions that arise in an unenlightened mind.
      When there is no mind, the question does not even arise. The Self
      [God] will make the body perform various actions and all those
      activities will be correct and perfect because they are prompted by
      the Self. Mind will not intervine to decide whether or not some
      course of action is correct or not, because mind will no longer be
      there. Enlightenment ends all debates about behaviour. Problems of
      conduct and morality are problems of the decision-making mind. They
      do not arise in the Self at all. This is hard to understand because
      understanding cannot penetrate or encompass what I am talking about.
      This state cannot be described, cannot be imagined, and cannot be
      touched."

      This "no mind" talk can sound awfully strange if you are unfamiliar
      with with Jnana and Zen and you may not buy into it at all but from
      the standpoint of Avadutism Rasputin is, beyond any doubt,
      Enlightened.

      We also have to take into account that Rasputin was a hero of the
      peasants, even a kind of Robin Hood. He could have been immensely
      wealthy but he kept very little for himself and his family and gave
      the rest to the poor. His words to the Tsar was that the chief thing
      to do is to feed the hungry and help the poor. After his murder his
      place was ransacked, many were looking for his supposed great
      treasures. All they got was a dowry he was saving for his daughter.
      The Ochrana testified that he healed untold numbers of people.
      Rasputin WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN RUSSIAN HISTORY who, having attained
      political power, did not put his enemies in jail. In fact he even
      helped get one of enemies out of jail. He was anti-war, knowing that
      wars are power plays where the peasants always get the worst of it.
      His good deeds were endless.

      So why does Rasputin has such a bad rep? Briefly, the monk-priest
      Iliodor started a propaganda campaign against him in his
      pamphlet "The Holy Devil" because the Khylsty was an illegal
      religion. Iliodor also resented Rasputin's power. Rasputin was also
      hated because he was a TRUE spokesperson for the peasants in
      aristocratic St. Petersburg. In Russia at that time JUST TO BE A
      PEASANT WAS REASON ENOUGHT TO BE HATED AND KILLED. Rasputin was
      helped into power by the the so-called "Union of the True Russian
      People" which were SUPPOSED to be pro-peasant, but when they found
      that Rasputin was truly pro-peasant they turned against him.
      Rasputin, a peasant of great spiritual politcal power in St.
      Petersburg, elicited tremondous hatred of the very conventional
      aristocracy. And, of course, there are other reasons why Rasputin has
      such a bad reputation.

      Bishop Hermogen, bishop of Saratov, said that Rasputin was
      incorruptible. He should know because he and his group were one of
      the many groups and people who tried to corrupt Rasputin with money
      and such.

      Two very good books to read are "Rasputin: The Holy Devil" by Rene
      Fulop-Miller, 1928 (perhaps the most widely read book on Rasputin)
      and "Rasputin: A New Judgment" by Heinz Liepman, 1959.


      Jai Guru!

      Umesh
    • Ron Criss
      Umesh, I find your perspective interesting, though I doubt if Rasputin woulk share your pluralistic perspective or attempt to justify any sexual promiscuity as
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 17, 2004
        Umesh,

        I find your perspective interesting, though I doubt if Rasputin
        woulk share your pluralistic perspective or attempt to justify any
        sexual promiscuity as religious. Rather everything I've read seemed
        to suggest that he found sexual promiscuity to be a spiritual
        failing. There is one of his works available:

        My Thoughts and Meditations

        This book, very small, can be found as an appendix to the book My
        Father, by Maria Rasputin.

        I just ordered "Rasputin: A New Judgment" by Heinz Liepman, as I had
        never heard of this book. Hopefully he has different sources than
        are found regularly. As I said on theother list, I wish the
        investigation prepared by the Russian Church had been rendered into
        english.

        Ron



        --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Umesh" <upasanibaba@y...> wrote:
        >
        > OM!
        >
        > My religion is Siddha-marga (aka Guru-marga) within the Avadhuta
        > (also spelled "Avadhut" and "Avadhoot") tradition. With this
        > backround and from much of what I've been reading about Rasputin
        (and
        > from some comments by some Gurus) I say that SPIRITUALLY speaking
        > Rasputin was in the Siddha and Avadhuta tradition. He was
        > Enlightened. He essentially said (and sometimes behaved) like
        other
        > Enlightened beings. Drukpa Kunley and Milarepa are two who are
        known
        > to be in the "Crazy Wisdom" traditions. Kunley had many lovers.
        > Milarepa once urinated on a group of theologions as a teaching to
        > them on their absence of spirituality even though they were
        respected
        > by religious and societal orthodoxy.
        >
        > Rasputin was an adherant of the literally illegal Khlysty
        (sometimes
        > spelled "Chlysti")religion. The Khlysty, which literally mean the
        Men
        > of God, are essentially mystical. The Khlysty religion appears to
        be
        > very much within the Tantric tradition which basic tenant is "That
        by
        > which other people fall, we rise." The Khylsty, like in Siddha-
        marga,
        > believe in multiple Incarnations (Avatars) and considered Rasputin
        to
        > be such an Incarnation. Now this is what seems to trip up the
        Western
        > mind: was Rasputin a saint or sinner? Anyone who is objective
        cannot
        > deny that he possessed supernatural powers (siddhis in my
        religion)
        > but the historical facts equally tell of his womanizing and
        drinking.
        > So some authors conclude that Rasputin was both saint and sinner.
        > THAT IS BECAUSE THE WEST IS SO OVERWHELMINGLY DUALISTIC. The
        tendency
        > is to see the Divine only in that which is socially good. But God
        > equally exists in much of what society considers bad. HAVING
        BECOME
        > ONE WITH GOD THE ENLIGHTENED ONE HAS GONE BEYOND CONVENTIONAL
        > STANDARDS OF GOOD AND EVIL AND HAS BECOME ONE WITH GOD, THE
        ABSOLUTE
        > GOOD. Convention no longer binds him or her. In fact, such a
        person
        > no longer has an individuality/will of his/her own. Hariwansh Lal
        > Poonja, an Enlightened Guru who taught that Rasputin was also
        > Enlightened, in speaking of how an Enlightened Being behaves had
        this
        > to say:
        >
        > "There is nothing to do and nothing not to do. What can you do in
        > this state? Nothing. Whatever you do after enlightenment is just a
        > reaction to the circumstances around you. 'Should I do this, or
        > should I do that?' are questions that arise in an unenlightened
        mind.
        > When there is no mind, the question does not even arise. The Self
        > [God] will make the body perform various actions and all those
        > activities will be correct and perfect because they are prompted
        by
        > the Self. Mind will not intervine to decide whether or not some
        > course of action is correct or not, because mind will no longer be
        > there. Enlightenment ends all debates about behaviour. Problems of
        > conduct and morality are problems of the decision-making mind.
        They
        > do not arise in the Self at all. This is hard to understand
        because
        > understanding cannot penetrate or encompass what I am talking
        about.
        > This state cannot be described, cannot be imagined, and cannot be
        > touched."
        >
        > This "no mind" talk can sound awfully strange if you are
        unfamiliar
        > with with Jnana and Zen and you may not buy into it at all but
        from
        > the standpoint of Avadutism Rasputin is, beyond any doubt,
        > Enlightened.
        >
        > We also have to take into account that Rasputin was a hero of the
        > peasants, even a kind of Robin Hood. He could have been immensely
        > wealthy but he kept very little for himself and his family and
        gave
        > the rest to the poor. His words to the Tsar was that the chief
        thing
        > to do is to feed the hungry and help the poor. After his murder
        his
        > place was ransacked, many were looking for his supposed great
        > treasures. All they got was a dowry he was saving for his
        daughter.
        > The Ochrana testified that he healed untold numbers of people.
        > Rasputin WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN RUSSIAN HISTORY who, having
        attained
        > political power, did not put his enemies in jail. In fact he even
        > helped get one of enemies out of jail. He was anti-war, knowing
        that
        > wars are power plays where the peasants always get the worst of
        it.
        > His good deeds were endless.
        >
        > So why does Rasputin has such a bad rep? Briefly, the monk-priest
        > Iliodor started a propaganda campaign against him in his
        > pamphlet "The Holy Devil" because the Khylsty was an illegal
        > religion. Iliodor also resented Rasputin's power. Rasputin was
        also
        > hated because he was a TRUE spokesperson for the peasants in
        > aristocratic St. Petersburg. In Russia at that time JUST TO BE A
        > PEASANT WAS REASON ENOUGHT TO BE HATED AND KILLED. Rasputin was
        > helped into power by the the so-called "Union of the True Russian
        > People" which were SUPPOSED to be pro-peasant, but when they found
        > that Rasputin was truly pro-peasant they turned against him.
        > Rasputin, a peasant of great spiritual politcal power in St.
        > Petersburg, elicited tremondous hatred of the very conventional
        > aristocracy. And, of course, there are other reasons why Rasputin
        has
        > such a bad reputation.
        >
        > Bishop Hermogen, bishop of Saratov, said that Rasputin was
        > incorruptible. He should know because he and his group were one of
        > the many groups and people who tried to corrupt Rasputin with
        money
        > and such.
        >
        > Two very good books to read are "Rasputin: The Holy Devil" by Rene
        > Fulop-Miller, 1928 (perhaps the most widely read book on Rasputin)
        > and "Rasputin: A New Judgment" by Heinz Liepman, 1959.
        >
        >
        > Jai Guru!
        >
        > Umesh
      • Umesh
        OM! Dear Ron, First of all, where did you order Liepman s book? I found one in a library but didn t find one I could buy. Rasputin From the Point of View of
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 19, 2004
          OM!

          Dear Ron,

          First of all, where did you order Liepman's book? I found one in a
          library but didn't find one I could buy.

          "Rasputin From the Point of View of Vedanta or the Perennial
          Philosophy"

          I could also have entitled this: "Rasputin From the Point of View of
          Mysticism." Well has it been said that all mystics or saints belong
          to the same faith. What differentiates the conventional use of the
          word "religion" from "mysticism" in this context is that
          Enlightenment is an experience or state of being that EXPERIENTIALLY
          is more physical than what is called the world. Someone who is
          Enlightened can be very orthodox or conventional outwardly but his
          inner experience is the same for all who are Enlightened.

          There is a saying in India that "there are no sages who do not
          differ." The differences are on the worldly level. "A God defined is
          a God confined" said the great Swami Rama Tirtha, meaning that as
          soon as you speak of the Infinite you are "finite-izing" it because
          words are finite. That which cannot be expressed, when attempting to
          express It, comes out in infinite ways. The differences or
          contradictions are apparent, on the surface only. In the history of
          the worlds' saints, when "push comes to shove" so to speak, all these
          saints get along terrificly. Once a Catholic went to the great Padre
          Pio for confession. Padre Pio did not speak Sanskrit, but this person
          had just come from a Guru in India and asked Padre Pio about the
          truth. Padre Pio responded to him, in Sanskrit, that he already found
          the truth. But Padre Pio still stuck to his Catholic tradition and
          blessed him in the Catholic faith.

          Most people are not yet ready for the universality of mysticism,
          therefore organized religions have a clear function. The Khlysty is
          more a spiritual path, a mystical path. It founder, Danila Filipich,
          showed signs of of being a Zen master or realized Vedantist (Filipich
          through his books, including the Bible, into the Volga and looked
          into "the golden book of life alone." Quite Vedantic and Zen like).
          To check out Rasputin's involvement with the Khlysty, you can go to
          Rene Fulop-Miller's RASPUTIN, THE HOLY DEVIL, starting on page 17.
          Check the index for more references. I have not come across a single
          scholar who even questions it. Rasputin's daughter, in her book, even
          denied he was much of a drinker. If you can find a copy of Heinz
          Liepman's book: RASPUTIN, A NEW JUDGMENT, Rasputin being a Khlysty
          starts on page 54. In the latter book the spelling of Khlysty
          is "Chlysti." The Ochrana found that Rasputin was a Khlysty. Rasputin
          discovered the Khlysty when he had to drive the novice Mileti
          Zaborovshi, a divinity student, to the monastery of Verkhoture.
          Rasputin discovered that that monastery was permeated with Khlysty
          adherents. The Khlysties believed in appearing to be Orthodox, even
          showing an outward zeal for being Orthodox, but they secretly held to
          the "true faith" as taught by Danila Filipich. Filipich had enjoined
          his followers: "Keep my laws secret, entrust them neither to your
          father nor to your mother, be steadfast and silent even under the
          lash or the flames; thus you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,
          and even here on earth receive the bliss of the spirit." That could
          also explain why Rasputin didn't explain his faith to his family.

          Although I have had an interest in Rasputin for many years, I have a
          renewed interest because in the West "Guru" has become a four letter
          word! The reason for that is that most people (even in India, I'm
          afraid) really don't understand the Guru tradition. Thousands of
          people have experienced Muktananda's divine powers, for example, but
          then get exasperated when they found out about his sexual exploits.
          Why Swami Muktananda has a bad reputation with many is the same
          reason Rasputin has a bad reputation but Rasputin's situation was far
          worse because he had such political power. But he was always for the
          poor and spent most of his time helping people.

          Knowing what I now know about Rasputin, that he was not only a great
          saint but even, according to the Khlysty, an Incarnation of God (the
          Khylsty believe, as do the Hindus, that God continually comes to
          Earth in human form), I would like to do some small part in redeeming
          his reputation. The Russian Orthodox Church has canonized Nicholai II
          and his family. Apparently, there is a split in the Church about the
          canonization of Rasputin. Rasputin was a true holy man who was the
          hero of countless peasants. History should give him credit.

          Jai Guru!

          Umesh






          --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Criss" <roncriss@h...> wrote:
          >
          > Umesh,
          >
          > I find your perspective interesting, though I doubt if Rasputin
          > woulk share your pluralistic perspective or attempt to justify any
          > sexual promiscuity as religious. Rather everything I've read seemed
          > to suggest that he found sexual promiscuity to be a spiritual
          > failing. There is one of his works available:
          >
          > My Thoughts and Meditations
          >
          > This book, very small, can be found as an appendix to the book My
          > Father, by Maria Rasputin.
          >
          > I just ordered "Rasputin: A New Judgment" by Heinz Liepman, as I
          had
          > never heard of this book. Hopefully he has different sources than
          > are found regularly. As I said on theother list, I wish the
          > investigation prepared by the Russian Church had been rendered into
          > english.
          >
          > Ron
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Umesh" <upasanibaba@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > OM!
          > >
          > > My religion is Siddha-marga (aka Guru-marga) within the Avadhuta
          > > (also spelled "Avadhut" and "Avadhoot") tradition. With this
          > > backround and from much of what I've been reading about Rasputin
          > (and
          > > from some comments by some Gurus) I say that SPIRITUALLY speaking
          > > Rasputin was in the Siddha and Avadhuta tradition. He was
          > > Enlightened. He essentially said (and sometimes behaved) like
          > other
          > > Enlightened beings. Drukpa Kunley and Milarepa are two who are
          > known
          > > to be in the "Crazy Wisdom" traditions. Kunley had many lovers.
          > > Milarepa once urinated on a group of theologions as a teaching to
          > > them on their absence of spirituality even though they were
          > respected
          > > by religious and societal orthodoxy.
          > >
          > > Rasputin was an adherant of the literally illegal Khlysty
          > (sometimes
          > > spelled "Chlysti")religion. The Khlysty, which literally mean the
          > Men
          > > of God, are essentially mystical. The Khlysty religion appears to
          > be
          > > very much within the Tantric tradition which basic tenant
          is "That
          > by
          > > which other people fall, we rise." The Khylsty, like in Siddha-
          > marga,
          > > believe in multiple Incarnations (Avatars) and considered
          Rasputin
          > to
          > > be such an Incarnation. Now this is what seems to trip up the
          > Western
          > > mind: was Rasputin a saint or sinner? Anyone who is objective
          > cannot
          > > deny that he possessed supernatural powers (siddhis in my
          > religion)
          > > but the historical facts equally tell of his womanizing and
          > drinking.
          > > So some authors conclude that Rasputin was both saint and sinner.
          > > THAT IS BECAUSE THE WEST IS SO OVERWHELMINGLY DUALISTIC. The
          > tendency
          > > is to see the Divine only in that which is socially good. But God
          > > equally exists in much of what society considers bad. HAVING
          > BECOME
          > > ONE WITH GOD THE ENLIGHTENED ONE HAS GONE BEYOND CONVENTIONAL
          > > STANDARDS OF GOOD AND EVIL AND HAS BECOME ONE WITH GOD, THE
          > ABSOLUTE
          > > GOOD. Convention no longer binds him or her. In fact, such a
          > person
          > > no longer has an individuality/will of his/her own. Hariwansh Lal
          > > Poonja, an Enlightened Guru who taught that Rasputin was also
          > > Enlightened, in speaking of how an Enlightened Being behaves had
          > this
          > > to say:
          > >
          > > "There is nothing to do and nothing not to do. What can you do in
          > > this state? Nothing. Whatever you do after enlightenment is just
          a
          > > reaction to the circumstances around you. 'Should I do this, or
          > > should I do that?' are questions that arise in an unenlightened
          > mind.
          > > When there is no mind, the question does not even arise. The Self
          > > [God] will make the body perform various actions and all those
          > > activities will be correct and perfect because they are prompted
          > by
          > > the Self. Mind will not intervine to decide whether or not some
          > > course of action is correct or not, because mind will no longer
          be
          > > there. Enlightenment ends all debates about behaviour. Problems
          of
          > > conduct and morality are problems of the decision-making mind.
          > They
          > > do not arise in the Self at all. This is hard to understand
          > because
          > > understanding cannot penetrate or encompass what I am talking
          > about.
          > > This state cannot be described, cannot be imagined, and cannot be
          > > touched."
          > >
          > > This "no mind" talk can sound awfully strange if you are
          > unfamiliar
          > > with with Jnana and Zen and you may not buy into it at all but
          > from
          > > the standpoint of Avadutism Rasputin is, beyond any doubt,
          > > Enlightened.
          > >
          > > We also have to take into account that Rasputin was a hero of the
          > > peasants, even a kind of Robin Hood. He could have been immensely
          > > wealthy but he kept very little for himself and his family and
          > gave
          > > the rest to the poor. His words to the Tsar was that the chief
          > thing
          > > to do is to feed the hungry and help the poor. After his murder
          > his
          > > place was ransacked, many were looking for his supposed great
          > > treasures. All they got was a dowry he was saving for his
          > daughter.
          > > The Ochrana testified that he healed untold numbers of people.
          > > Rasputin WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN RUSSIAN HISTORY who, having
          > attained
          > > political power, did not put his enemies in jail. In fact he even
          > > helped get one of enemies out of jail. He was anti-war, knowing
          > that
          > > wars are power plays where the peasants always get the worst of
          > it.
          > > His good deeds were endless.
          > >
          > > So why does Rasputin has such a bad rep? Briefly, the monk-priest
          > > Iliodor started a propaganda campaign against him in his
          > > pamphlet "The Holy Devil" because the Khylsty was an illegal
          > > religion. Iliodor also resented Rasputin's power. Rasputin was
          > also
          > > hated because he was a TRUE spokesperson for the peasants in
          > > aristocratic St. Petersburg. In Russia at that time JUST TO BE A
          > > PEASANT WAS REASON ENOUGHT TO BE HATED AND KILLED. Rasputin was
          > > helped into power by the the so-called "Union of the True Russian
          > > People" which were SUPPOSED to be pro-peasant, but when they
          found
          > > that Rasputin was truly pro-peasant they turned against him.
          > > Rasputin, a peasant of great spiritual politcal power in St.
          > > Petersburg, elicited tremondous hatred of the very conventional
          > > aristocracy. And, of course, there are other reasons why Rasputin
          > has
          > > such a bad reputation.
          > >
          > > Bishop Hermogen, bishop of Saratov, said that Rasputin was
          > > incorruptible. He should know because he and his group were one
          of
          > > the many groups and people who tried to corrupt Rasputin with
          > money
          > > and such.
          > >
          > > Two very good books to read are "Rasputin: The Holy Devil" by
          Rene
          > > Fulop-Miller, 1928 (perhaps the most widely read book on
          Rasputin)
          > > and "Rasputin: A New Judgment" by Heinz Liepman, 1959.
          > >
          > >
          > > Jai Guru!
          > >
          > > Umesh
        • Ron Criss
          ... I found a cheap copy for sale at www.bookfinder.com. It was going for ridiculously high prices at amazon.com s Marketpalce sellers for some reason. Perhaps
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 19, 2004
            --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Umesh" <upasanibaba@y...> wrote:
            >
            > OM!
            >
            > Dear Ron,
            >
            > First of all, where did you order Liepman's book? I found one in a
            > library but didn't find one I could buy.

            I found a cheap copy for sale at www.bookfinder.com. It was going
            for ridiculously high prices at amazon.com's Marketpalce sellers for
            some reason. Perhaps lack of competition.

            Ron
          • Umesh
            OM! Thanks--Umesh Om Sai! ... a ... for
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 29, 2004
              OM!

              Thanks--Umesh

              Om Sai!


              --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Criss" <roncriss@h...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Rasputine@yahoogroups.com, "Umesh" <upasanibaba@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > OM!
              > >
              > > Dear Ron,
              > >
              > > First of all, where did you order Liepman's book? I found one in
              a
              > > library but didn't find one I could buy.
              >
              > I found a cheap copy for sale at www.bookfinder.com. It was going
              > for ridiculously high prices at amazon.com's Marketpalce sellers
              for
              > some reason. Perhaps lack of competition.
              >
              > Ron
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