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Re: [RangeVoting] Re: Egypt -- what went wrong?

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  • Bruce Gilson
    ... Google, at the moment, seems to be playing around with all their software. Gmail was really behaving strangely for the past 2-3 days, reloading repeatedly
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 3 8:00 PM
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      On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <abd@...>wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Well, breakdown here. Something has changed with Google Translate,
      > which I would need for assistance, and my browswers (Firefox and
      > Opera) don't seem to work with it.
      >
      Google, at the moment, seems to be playing around with all their software.
      Gmail was really behaving strangely for the past 2-3 days, reloading
      repeatedly and not letting me archive stuff, and then today it started
      working OK again. I think Google is going through a massive update of
      everything at the moment.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • WarrenS
      here s another interesting looking poll: http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/pdf_poll_file_en/21Report06.pdf just translating the captions on the pictures in these
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 4 10:07 AM
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        here's another interesting looking poll:

        http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/pdf_poll_file_en/21Report06.pdf

        just translating the captions on the pictures in these polls, ignoring the text, would go a long way.
      • WarrenS
        Al Jazeera sent me a response, which I guess is better than no response, but it wasn t terribly encouraging, re my attempt to write Egypt op-ed for them. Here
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 4 2:34 PM
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          Al Jazeera sent me a response, which I guess is better than
          no response, but it wasn't terribly encouraging, re my attempt to write Egypt op-ed
          for them.

          Here are my attempts, feel free to critique, reword bits, whatever.

          http://rangevoting.org/EgyptOpEd.html

          http://rangevoting.org/EgyptOpEd2.html
        • WarrenS
          ... --yes. Thanks. My main question was does this or the other poll contain approval, score, or pairwise style polls, and the answer for this poll, you have
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 4 2:58 PM
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            --- In RangeVoting@yahoogroups.com, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <abd@...> wrote:
            >
            > Google translate is working now. I can't translate the whole
            > document, it's too large, but I can pick up pieces and translate
            > them. Much of the document refuses to display in my pdf reader, but I
            > *can*, it turns out, copy pieces into Google translate. Translate
            > would not handle a full page at a time, so it's a bit tedious, and it
            > doesn't load the whole document.
            >
            > At 12:07 PM 7/4/2013, WarrenS wrote:
            >
            > >here's another interesting looking poll:
            > >
            > > http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/pdf_poll_file_en/21Report06.pdf
            > >
            > >just translating the captions on the pictures in these polls,
            > >ignoring the text, would go a long way.
            >
            > I'm really not sure I can do better than you. But to help out,
            > copying google translations, my insertions are in brackets.
            >
            > page 8: key findings
            >
            > page 9: The proportion of know[ers of] the date of the Presidential election
            >
            > The Arabic numerals you can mostly get from the chart left legend,
            > multiples of 10%. We use "Arabic numerals" that are the Maghribit
            > form, the Egyptians use what they call "Hindu numerals," as I recall.
            > The dates are in the standard "Christian calendar."
            >
            > So the dates are 2012-4-24, 2012-4-29, and 2012-5-16
            >
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Arabic_numerals
            >
            > page 10: Who is the President expected?
            >
            > page 11: Percentage of those who did not make up their minds
            >
            > page 12: Voters who did not make up their minds
            >
            > [Remember, arabic captions from right to left!!!):
            > Male Female Male Female
            > Less qualified than the average ... Intermediate
            > Urban [blue] ... Rural [yellow]
            >
            > page 13: If the election work was Hate Htantb Maine? [gotta love
            > Google, I'll look at this later]
            > [captions along the bottom, R to L]
            > Khalid Ali
            > Mohamed Morsi Awa
            > Muhammad Salim
            > Hamdeen Sabahi [Google wanted to translate it as Hamdeen Morning, but
            > when I put this on one line instead of two, it picked up it was a name.]
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Amr Moussa
            > Ahmed Shafiq
            > has not yet decided
            >
            > Page 14: Order of candidates
            > [What kind of idiot are you if you don't recognize those faces? The
            > dates are from April 10, top right, to May 16, lower left.]
            > [Seriously, I have no idea who these people are, without looking them
            > up. Shouldn't be all that difficult.]
            >
            > Page 15: Top 3 candidates
            > [Chart date order is left to right, April 10 to May 16.]
            > [Green] Aboul Fotouh
            > [Red] Moussa
            > [Blue] Shafiq
            >
            > Page 16: Top choice among young people 29 years old -18
            > [i.e., right to left, 18-29]
            > [since the date order is left to right, these names are also in date order]
            > Hazem Salah Abu Ismail
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Ahmed Shafik [Weird; the Arabic letter at the end is Qaf, not Kaf. Of
            > course, in English, we pronounce these the same. But very much not in Arabic.]
            >
            > Page 17: Top 3 choices for young people 29 years old) -18) 2012-5 - Day
            > [Right to left]
            > Ahmed Shafik
            > Hamdeen Sabahi
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            >
            > Page 18: Top choice between Alelanat [actually, among women, gee, I
            > actually can read a little.]
            > [Left to right because of dates]
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
            > Ahmed Shafik
            > Ahmed Shafik
            > Ahmed Shafik
            >
            > I need to do some other stuff now ... I can come back to this. Do you
            > think this is useful, Warren?
            >

            --yes. Thanks. My main question was does this or the other poll contain approval, score, or pairwise style polls, and the answer for this poll, you have now shown, is "no."
            (If yes, the next question would be -- what do they say?)

            Yes, I recognize the pictures.
          • Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
            Google translate is working now. I can t translate the whole document, it s too large, but I can pick up pieces and translate them. Much of the document
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 4 3:42 PM
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              Google translate is working now. I can't translate the whole
              document, it's too large, but I can pick up pieces and translate
              them. Much of the document refuses to display in my pdf reader, but I
              *can*, it turns out, copy pieces into Google translate. Translate
              would not handle a full page at a time, so it's a bit tedious, and it
              doesn't load the whole document.

              At 12:07 PM 7/4/2013, WarrenS wrote:

              >here's another interesting looking poll:
              >
              > http://baseera.com.eg/baseera/pdf_poll_file_en/21Report06.pdf
              >
              >just translating the captions on the pictures in these polls,
              >ignoring the text, would go a long way.

              I'm really not sure I can do better than you. But to help out,
              copying google translations, my insertions are in brackets.

              page 8: key findings

              page 9: The proportion of know[ers of] the date of the Presidential election

              The Arabic numerals you can mostly get from the chart left legend,
              multiples of 10%. We use "Arabic numerals" that are the Maghribit
              form, the Egyptians use what they call "Hindu numerals," as I recall.
              The dates are in the standard "Christian calendar."

              So the dates are 2012-4-24, 2012-4-29, and 2012-5-16

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Arabic_numerals

              page 10: Who is the President expected?

              page 11: Percentage of those who did not make up their minds

              page 12: Voters who did not make up their minds

              [Remember, arabic captions from right to left!!!):
              Male Female Male Female
              Less qualified than the average ... Intermediate
              Urban [blue] ... Rural [yellow]

              page 13: If the election work was Hate Htantb Maine? [gotta love
              Google, I'll look at this later]
              [captions along the bottom, R to L]
              Khalid Ali
              Mohamed Morsi Awa
              Muhammad Salim
              Hamdeen Sabahi [Google wanted to translate it as Hamdeen Morning, but
              when I put this on one line instead of two, it picked up it was a name.]
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Amr Moussa
              Ahmed Shafiq
              has not yet decided

              Page 14: Order of candidates
              [What kind of idiot are you if you don't recognize those faces? The
              dates are from April 10, top right, to May 16, lower left.]
              [Seriously, I have no idea who these people are, without looking them
              up. Shouldn't be all that difficult.]

              Page 15: Top 3 candidates
              [Chart date order is left to right, April 10 to May 16.]
              [Green] Aboul Fotouh
              [Red] Moussa
              [Blue] Shafiq

              Page 16: Top choice among young people 29 years old -18
              [i.e., right to left, 18-29]
              [since the date order is left to right, these names are also in date order]
              Hazem Salah Abu Ismail
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Ahmed Shafik [Weird; the Arabic letter at the end is Qaf, not Kaf. Of
              course, in English, we pronounce these the same. But very much not in Arabic.]

              Page 17: Top 3 choices for young people 29 years old) -18) 2012-5 - Day
              [Right to left]
              Ahmed Shafik
              Hamdeen Sabahi
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh

              Page 18: Top choice between Alelanat [actually, among women, gee, I
              actually can read a little.]
              [Left to right because of dates]
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh
              Ahmed Shafik
              Ahmed Shafik
              Ahmed Shafik

              I need to do some other stuff now ... I can come back to this. Do you
              think this is useful, Warren?
            • Stephen Unger
              Error: With score voting, vote splitting does not exist. Without it, probably a liberal secularist would have defeated either. Change . Without it, to
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 6 11:38 AM
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                Error:

                "With score voting, "vote splitting" does not exist. Without it,
                probably a liberal secularist would have defeated either."

                Change ". Without it," to "and" to get:

                With score voting, "vote splitting" does not exist and probably a
                liberal secularist would have defeated either.

                Steve
                ............

                Stephen H. Unger
                Professor Emeritus
                Computer Science and Electrical Engineering
                Columbia University
                ............

                On Thu, 4 Jul 2013, WarrenS wrote:

                >  
                >
                > Al Jazeera sent me a response, which I guess is better than
                > no response, but it wasn't terribly encouraging, re my attempt to write Egypt
                > op-ed
                > for them.
                >
                > Here are my attempts, feel free to critique, reword bits, whatever.
                >
                > http://rangevoting.org/EgyptOpEd.html
                >
                > http://rangevoting.org/EgyptOpEd2.html
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
                ... Killer argument, Warren and Stephen. That is, it will kill the op-ed. Be *very* careful about predicting what specific result voting reform will produce.
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 6 2:48 PM
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                  At 02:38 PM 7/6/2013, Stephen Unger wrote:
                  >Error:
                  >
                  >"With score voting, "vote splitting" does not exist. Without it,
                  >probably a liberal secularist would have defeated either."
                  >
                  >Change ". Without it," to "and" to get:
                  >
                  >With score voting, "vote splitting" does not exist and probably a
                  >liberal secularist would have defeated either.

                  Killer argument, Warren and Stephen. That is, it will kill the op-ed.

                  Be *very* careful about predicting what specific result voting reform
                  will produce. If you do so, you will create enemies of voting reform,
                  i.e., all those who would support a *different candidate.*

                  I do agree with Stephen's correction, as far as he went. The "without
                  it" has an unspecified referent. Yes, it could be claimed that the
                  referent is the previous noun, but that is too close to "score
                  voting." Avoid the possible ambiguity.

                  But the whole comment is a Bad Idea.

                  They will assume that you are just an outsider, with your own agenda,
                  to get "liberal secularists" to win, infidel that you are.

                  Someone who might have been considered a "liberal secularist" at one
                  time could be Saddam Hussein. Beware of "secularists" in the Muslim world.

                  What is more appealing is moderate, nonfundamentalist Muslims. What
                  actually could be the mainstream.

                  I'd say that most Muslims are very tired of the fundamentalists
                  representing themselves as being true Muslims, and everyone else is a
                  hypocrite or unbeliever. If you want to understand this, consider how
                  most Americans, including most Christians, think of Christian fundamentalists.

                  Yet we elect Christian Presidents, so far. Notice the Big Deal about
                  Obama allegedly being Muslim. If that had been believed, it might
                  have been a problem.

                  Be careful of assuming that the Muslim relationship to secularism is
                  the same as ours. We have a secular society where we have
                  long-standing traditions of non-discrimination on the basis of
                  religion, but it was a big deal that Kennedy was elected as a
                  Catholic, and it was somewhat of an issue that Lieberman was Jewish.
                  What we really support is interreligious tolerance, and that's also
                  true of Islam, traditionally, (in spite of what some anti-Muslim
                  fanatics will claim.)
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