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LA to "study" IRV

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  • brokenladdercalendar
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/la-county-to-study-using-instant-runoff-elections.html Someone should contact whatever office is running this
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
      http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/la-county-to-study-using-instant-runoff-elections.html

      Someone should contact whatever office is running this study, and try to pester your way to someone who actually carries some weight, and then make him aware of the Burlington fiasco.

      Of course Warren's Burlington analysis is probably way more objective and scientifically sound than anything they're going to pull off. Probably they will put together a team of people with no background in game theory or any of the pertinent peripheral competencies.
    • Dale Sheldon
      ... Take note: they re looking into it as a way to SAVE MONEY. So if you re going to contact them, don t bother discussing susceptibility to spoilers, or
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
        On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, brokenladdercalendar wrote:

        > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/la-county-to-study-using-instant-runoff-elections.html
        >
        > Someone should contact whatever office is running this study, and try to
        > pester your way to someone who actually carries some weight, and then
        > make him aware of the Burlington fiasco.

        Take note: they're looking into it as a way to SAVE MONEY.

        So if you're going to contact them, don't bother discussing susceptibility
        to spoilers, or favorite-betrayal, or--heave forbid--non-monotonicity;
        sell them on the idea that score voting is CHEAPER than IRV.

        * Won't have to buy new machines; score voting will run on whatever they
        have right now

        * Less need for recounts, vs. IRV's multiple rounds where each could be a
        close decision

        * Can continue to count in precincts, vs. IRVs necessary central-counting

        (They also mentioned improved turnout; so maybe mentioning no-show
        paradoxes wouldn't be a total waste. But keep the pitch simple!)


        Is anyone on this list in LA county? It's always better to have a
        politician hear from a constituent than some random dude off the internet.

        --
        Dale Sheldon
        dales@...
      • warren_d_smith31
        LA mayors have been elected using a top-2-runoff open primary system like Louisiana governor elections for some time. I wonder how many pathologies their
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
          LA mayors have been elected using a top-2-runoff "open primary" system like
          Louisiana governor elections for some time. I wonder how many pathologies their elections have experienced similar to
          http://rangevoting.org/LAgovs.html

          I have no idea, and finding out is not necessarily trivial (but might not be hard).
        • Markus Schulze
          Hallo, here is a bill to introduce IRV for 10 cities and counties in California:
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 1, 2009
            Hallo,

            here is a bill to introduce IRV for 10
            cities and counties in California:

            http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_1121&sess=CUR&house=B&author=davis

            Markus Schulze
          • Dale Sheldon
            ... So far, all the comments approved on that blog entry are anti-IRV. I guess FairVote missed the memo? Here s hoping that the word makes it back to the
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 2, 2009
              On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, brokenladdercalendar wrote:

              > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/la-county-to-study-using-instant-runoff-elections.html
              >
              > Someone should contact whatever office is running this study, and try to
              > pester your way to someone who actually carries some weight, and then
              > make him aware of the Burlington fiasco.

              So far, all the comments approved on that blog entry are anti-IRV. I
              guess FairVote missed the memo? Here's hoping that the word makes it back
              to the council.

              --
              Dale Sheldon
              dales@...
            • Joyce McCloy
              Here is my reply, posted to the article, and I DO address voter turnout issue: IRV is one of the most flawed election methods there is: Instant Runoff Voting
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 2, 2009
                Here is my reply, posted to the article, and I DO address voter turnout
                issue:

                IRV is one of the most flawed election methods there is:

                Instant Runoff Voting is associated with LOWER voter turnout in San
                Francisco California and Takoma Park Maryland, home of Fair Vote
                Director Rob Richie. (see The activist city that didn't vote Will
                there ever be enough candidates in a Takoma Park election triggerInstant
                Run-off Voting? by Tamra Tomlinson
                12/07/2007)http://www.takoma.com/archives/pdfs/2007/1207pdfs/tp1207/TKP_\
                MN_120107_00_00_017_c.pdf
                <http://www.takoma.com/archives/pdfs/2007/1207pdfs/tp1207/TKP_MN_120107_\
                00_00_017_c.pdf>

                San Francisco's 2007 IRV mayoral contest had 100,000 fewer voters
                than did San Francisco's one on one runoff mayoral contest in 2003.
                (See http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/turnout.html)
                <http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/turnout.html)>

                IRV is associated with LACK of racial minority representation.
                in Takoma Park Maryland. Takoma Park is 34 percent
                African-American.." yet "Â….Takoma Park, in Montgomery County,
                has no minority representative. " (See (See Greenbelt mulls changes
                to its voting system Thursday July 24, 2008 Gazette.net)
                http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/minorities.html
                <http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/minorities.html>

                IRV is also associated with lack of racial minority representation in
                Australia, where IRV has been used for decades. The Center for Range
                Voting advises that: "in the top IRV-using country (Australia) and
                the top two plurality-using countries (USA & UK) in years 2005-2008. We
                find, e.g, that there are zero racial-minority IRV seatholdersÂ…
                "
                (See "Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) and racial minorities"
                http://www.rangevoting.org/IRVraceMinorities.html
                <http://www.rangevoting.org/IRVraceMinorities.html> )

                IRV costs significantly more than plurality elections
                http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/costs.html
                <http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/costs.html>
                yet IRV in most elections provides a plurality result
                http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/majority.html
                <http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/majority.html>

                The instant runoff election in Burlington,Vermont suffered from nearly
                every pathology in the book! Non monotonicity - where with instant
                runoff, a voter can hurt their preferred candidate by ranking them
                first. A spoiler effect - in this election, Kurt Wright was the spoiler.
                The "no show" paradox - Wright supporters who also supported Montrol
                would have helped him if they hadn't shown up to vote at all. Majority
                failure -the candidate supported by the most voters did not win.
                Incumbent protection thanks to name recognition. Centrally counted votes
                - instant runoff opened up the election to fraud because votes were not
                counted where cast.
                http://instantrunoff.blogspot.com/2009/03/burlington-instant-runoff-elec\
                tion.html
                <http://instantrunoff.blogspot.com/2009/03/burlington-instant-runoff-ele\
                ction.html>


                IRV requires more complex technology to count, because IRV is not
                additive and cannot be summed up at the polling places.
                http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/votingsystems.html
                <http://www.instantrunoffvoting.us/votingsystems.html>

                CARY NC REJECTED A 2ND IRV EXPERIMENT. March 12, 2009 Cary North
                Carolina turned down second bite of Instant Runoff Voting Pilot, process
                still too flawed The City Council chose plurality by a vote of 6-1
                instead, citing problems with IRV and noting that the one IRV election
                they had produced a plurality winner, not a majority winner.
                http://irvbad4nc.blogspot.com/2009/03/instant-runoff-voting-pilot-remain\
                s.html
                <http://irvbad4nc.blogspot.com/2009/03/instant-runoff-voting-pilot-remai\
                ns.html>

                See www.instantrunoffvoting.us for facts, reports, news.


                --- In RangeVoting@yahoogroups.com, "brokenladdercalendar"
                <thebrokenladder@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/03/la-county-to-study-using-i\
                nstant-runoff-elections.html
                >
                > Someone should contact whatever office is running this study, and try
                to pester your way to someone who actually carries some weight, and then
                make him aware of the Burlington fiasco.
                >
                > Of course Warren's Burlington analysis is probably way more objective
                and scientifically sound than anything they're going to pull off.
                Probably they will put together a team of people with no background in
                game theory or any of the pertinent peripheral competencies.
                >




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