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Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

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  • Matthew Ventura
    Hi Ted,   I have heard that viewpoint repeated many, many times. Creationists (or IDists - Intelligent Design, that is) are looking for ways to prove that
    Message 1 of 36 , Apr 27 10:19 PM
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      Hi Ted,
       
      I have heard that viewpoint repeated many, many times. Creationists (or IDists - Intelligent Design, that is) are looking for ways to prove that evolution is scientifically impossible, and this is one of their favourite things to point towards to support this view. Unfortunately for them, however, there is reasonable evidence to refute this (the statement that mutations can't produce upward evolution), but for some reason, the people who don't want to know about it never seem to "find out" about it.
       
      Being a Creationist myself, I have spent many many hours of research on this topic. Not just in evolution in general, but actually learning about mutations and things. In my research, I have come to the conclusion that it IS possible for a mutation to create new information (though not very likely at all, and the chances of it being advantageous are even smaller). Because generation of new information is possible, then the upward evolution of an organism is also possible. Not likely, but possible. Not nearly anywhere near as likely as any evolutionist would have you believe, but we're talking Science here, and when it comes to Science, you can't refute a theory based on the sole standpoint of it being "unlikely."
       
      So even though I very firmly believe in Creation, I can't deny the fact that it HAS been scientifically proven that mutations can add new information that can be beneficial (even long-term) to the organism. If you would like to know more about how this has been proven, please email me privately to express your interest in knowing the truth. I don't want to clutter up this list with unwanted, unrelated scientific articles.
       
      Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be judgmental or discourage you or anything (even though I probably am coming across that way - it is really hard to show one's real emotions through email sometimes, especially when discussing controversial Scientific subjects). I just want you to know the truth. Many people are deceived by things that simply "sound" scientific enough to be true. This applies to evolutionists, creationists, and everyone in between. That's why it's very important to collect information from a wide variety of sources, rather than sticking to what you read on certain websites (e.g. a Creationist reading from Creationist websites only, or an Evolutionist reading only Evolutionist websites). It's easy to find whatever you want "proven" on the internet, but you can never be 100% sure until you have confirmed it from a lot of different sources which have been compiled by people with different standpoints. And until you're 100% about something, you shouldn't go around presenting it as fact to other unknowing people, or you'll only worsen the situation. Eventually half the population will "know" something as "fact" while the other half will "know" something conflicting as "fact," and when both sides start comparing notess, there will be lots of problems. No one will know who/what to believe, or even how much of what they've always been taught is actually true. Hence the importance of verifying every piece of information before presenting it as fact.
       
      In all this, you also need to keep in mind that just because certain aspects of the Theory of Evolution are possible doesn't at all mean they actually happened. I believe that evolution of life forms to more improved life forms can be possible (though I haven't done my own scientific research, so can't verify that statement), but that is no reason why I can't know that God created the world! Whichever side you're on, you have to believe in at least some amount of biological evolution. If God only allowed 2 cats onto the Ark, how did we get all the cats we have today? That includes lions, tigers, leopards, pumas, ocelots, jaguars, domestic cats, and everything else. Obviously the 2 original cats must have "evolved" or "differentiated" into all the different cat species we have today. If you don't believe in biological evolution, you don't have much evidence for believing in Creation either.
       
      Which brings me to another point. We have to face the fact that there really isn't a lot of known scientific evidence which points towards Creation. As Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." So all we as sinners are tricked into believing in something which is false - in this case it could be the evolution of humans from non-life. When you consider all the undisputable "facts" it may seem as if a theory like that is likely. That's why a Christian needs faith. If everything was clearly laid out before us, no one would need faith, and there would be no difference between Christians and non-believers. We know from God's Word what really happened, so why should we let these "facts" bother us? It just makes it more difficult when you are trying to convince somebody else.
       
      Always remember this point: being a Christian is not about seeing something no one else can see; it's about believing something that nobody can see!
       
      So please let me know if you're interested about reading what has been discovered about mutations - particularly frameshift mutations. I'm sure you'd find it very interesting.
       
      I'll leave it at that for now. I'm quite sure this post is long enough!
       
      Regards, From Matthew.

       
    • Natalie Shobe
      Well, congratulations on getting it excepted without those breeders. :) Natalie ________________________________ From: MARINA To:
      Message 36 of 36 , May 2, 2010
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        Well, congratulations on getting it excepted without those breeders. :)

        Natalie


        From: MARINA <samthase@...>
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 11:18:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

         

        Cruelty to animals..next to Switzerland (which is EXTREME) Austria has very, very tough laws on animal rights...Sometimes I wonder. And me, having more enemies than I need (those old rusty rabbit breeders who can not open their minds for a new breed but open their beer bottles fast and some of the funky the other day mentioned longhairfunkyrabbit -breeders) I have to watch double and triple on everything. So that no one can point a finger at me at all I keep all very neat and "unsmelly", the rabbits got partially rabbit runs in the garden and once a month the vet comes in and declares my rabbitry as healthy. That way those ugly-evil-meanies can not bother me. The attacks due to the Mini Rex coming to Austria were not only verbally :( there was harassment and even sexual aggression towards me since my husband was several years in the US and several male breeders (the majority is male) wanted to take advantage of my situation (If you sleep with, I take some of your Mini Rex and breed them - otherwise I will do all that is in my power to prevent this breed to be accepted)... In the end I changed breeder club (after being a member there for 28 years) and the absolute highest ranking judges of the standard commission learned about my troubles and really, really helped me with coming to the rabbitry, looking at it, looking at the quality and gave after a meeting with the rests the final note out that the mini rex is now in all colors EQUAL to the standard and the dwarf rex :)
         
        Marina
         
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 05/02/10 22:58:19
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
        Huh, interesting. Why is it not allowed anymore?
        Natalie


        From: MARINA <samthase@aon. at>
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 1:51:05 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

         

        Well, I got my priorties like this: the children, the music (cello and classical guitar), work, rabbits..husband :) lol Since I got absolutely no help from the family either (which was a little difficult, when being for 4 months hospitalized or after a c-section) and I have to load all the manure into big bags and carry them 30 steps upstairs and then load onto a truck I pay a guy 15 Euros an hour to carry and drive away.
         
        In the upstairs rabbitry which is absolutely outdoors, while the other is part outdoor only, I have plastic mesh floors and trays. I love it!!!! Your idea with the putting trays in will be the way I will do in the other part of the rabbitry. They sit then in the trays :) wire floor is not allowed in Austria anymore..but plastic mesh will do it :)
         
        Marina 
         
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 05/02/10 22:44:32
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
        I guess if you really like your bunnies and don't want to give up on them, Save up for a flush system now, order it, and if it takes a couple of years, hey, it is better than totally giving up your whole breeding program a couple of years down the road because you just can't do the cleaning anymore. Unless, you don't want to spend the money on an expensive system.  LOL! For me, I love raising rabbits but it is not my #1 priority so if anything ever happens and I can't do the cleaning anymore, I will probably just get rid of the rabbits and put the money that I could be spending on more efficient cages towards things that I might need more than rabbits. I do love this hobby of raising rabbits and would love to raise them for ever but at what point do I draw the line. Do I get desperate enough to buy and expensive cage system so that I can keep raising them, or do I quit raising them and save the money for something more important. That is the question I guess we all have to ask eventually. How much money are you willing to spend on this project. I can honestly tell you that I have put load and loads of money into my own program. Sometimes I look back on the amount I have flushed down the drain on feed, cages, shavings for trays, grooming things, gas money for shows, entry fees, buying stock, meds, vet bills.... and wonder if it is even worth it. LOL!

        Another option you could consider that might be cheaper would be to order roles of flooring wire and add wire floors into your cage system instead of solid floors. Then, somehow add tray slides and order trays. You might have to do some remodeling to your current systems but in the long run, might be cheaper than ordering a flush system. At least with trays, you are not having to clean floors all the time. All you have to do is slide the trays out, dump the waist, spray the trays off (I also like to bleach mine to keep control on bacteria) and slide them back in. Some breeders don't even use shavings to cut down on extra expenses. I personally, like to use shavings because it makes things smell much better and soaks up urine so that it isn't dumping everywhere when I go to clean the tray out. With my trays, I only have to clean them once a week as long as I don't have litters in the cages. I clean the floors about once every 2 week - once a month depending on how messy the rabbits are in the cages. I have Mini Rex and they don't tend to make such a mess with fur even when shedding. If I have spaying bucks or rabbits who do happen to make lots of messes with hay and fur, I do clean the cages more often than once a month. Its really nice though. There is no cleaning cages every couple of days so that the rabbits don't get sick or dirty. My rabbits stay pretty clean as long as they don't spray all over the place or pee on every inch of the cage (some of my does do this and it is aggravating. It takes them maybe 3 days to get filthy)

        I don't usually have any kind of help from my family at all when I put my new cages together. They usually have instructions that come with the cages and all the parts and I already have the tools neccesary. It does take longer for me to put the cages together by my self but it isn't difficult. There should be no cutting, no hammering, no major muscle power needed. It is just a matter of sitting down and taking the time to put them together. Some companies even partially put the cages together so that you only have to unfold the cage, connect the sides and top, bolt the leg kits onto the sides and put the tray slides on. There you have it, a stack of cages. I can put together a stack of cages in 1 afternoon. Maybe even 2 stacks in a day if I really set my mind to it.

        Now, I don't know how much construction and how difficult it would be to put together a flush system. I am guessing a bit more work and effort with the whole flush part. :)

        I actually saw a design that a breeder put together to save money. They bought 3 cheap basic wire cages, bought 4 wood beams for the sides, and then took metal roofing and made slanted slides for the waist. The waist then slides down to behind the stack of cages and they go in about once a weak, shovel the pile away and spray down the metal slides. No need for trays, or the leg kits. However, my problem with this is, I don't have room for extra space behind the cages for the mess to go and my rabbits are in sheds where I really don't want to have poop and pee on the floor. So, I have to have trays. However, if you have the rabbits in a barn where it is not a problem to have stuff on the floor, why not do this? It is much cheaper and maybe even less work in the long run. Anyway, there are a lot of good ideas out there to make things less expensive and less work.

        Natalie


        From: MARINA <samthase@aon. at>
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 12:56:36 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

         

        It is but it is darn expensive and my inlaws probably will not help me with it...(actually my children wait since 2 years for the "I mail them a birthday gift this week"...) I would like to have the wire cages with a water toilet...So that the droppings and the urin go into tray that are a little angled and every evening when feeding I simple flush.alas, how easy would that be...mine sit deep on white shavings and barley straw and I am obviously not getting younger and cleaning out puts me into several days of severe pain in my neck and shoulders :(
         
        Marina 
         
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 05/02/10 21:45:46
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
        Is there any way to order cages in bulk from the US? Stacking cages would be very convenient for space conservation (They come flat in boxes so you do have to construct them but they have all the parts needed) and hanging cages would be very convenient for efficiency. The Rabbit Tech. system would be extremely space conserving and efficient but also very expensive. I use the stacking cage system with trays. While I can fit a lot of rabbits into a small space, it is a lot of work to clean trays all the time but I guess no more work than cleaning out solid bottomed cages.

        Natalie


        From: MARINA <samthase@aon. at>
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Sun, May 2, 2010 12:28:23 PM
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

         

        Oh beleive me, my rabbitry is nearly popping right now. I have more than 100 kits in the nests (I am running out of names!!!) and my daughter's english lops breed literally like rabbits!!
         
        I wish I had the american cages for my projects..it is so much easier to keep clean and work with them. I spent two full evenings with cleaning hutches...I built my rabbitry for 60 rabbits..so this will be soon disaster here..but I am culling hard, probably harder than anyone I know here, because of the spaceproblems I have. The harle project was very difficult but it worked out and I am very glad it did :)
         
        Hugs
         
        Marina
         
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 05/02/10 21:21:30
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
         

        Marina.
               I know getting a new breed or variety can be rather time consuming & stressful.  So wonderful for you to be able to do it.  I wish I had more space for such a task! 

        Brenda
        Foxaway Rabbits
        http://www.foxawayr abbits.com

        --- On Fri, 4/30/10, MARINA <samthase@aon. at> wrote:

        From: MARINA <samthase@aon. at>
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Friday, April 30, 2010, 2:15 AM

         

        Thank you!
         
        I had known it since late December but waited so say something until the new standard was presented and now in the national rabbit breeder magazine they had the attachment to put into the standard and the US Mini Rex is now in Austria, Luxembourg and by end of the year in Switzerland recognized in these colors:
         
        black
        blue
        chocolate
        lilac
         
        castor
        opal
        chin
        lynx
         
        dalmatian black, blue and chocolate
        rhinelander
         
        dalmatian tricolor black - red - white
         
        siamese (sable point)
         
        Japanese (harlequin)
         
        himilayan
         
        sable
         
        I am very proud of this even it meant now 6 years of extreme work of me and it is not over: The last thing I am working now on is the royal tux (American booted, with clean chest in 2 tri versions)..and that is so difficult that it causes headache..but by now I am the specialist on breeding amazing stock in this variety. For the 2nd presentation I need three breeders per color speciality and they each have to show four rabbits of this year's breeding season and they have to be perfect..I am scared :)
         
        Marina
         x
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 04/30/10 05:24:35
        Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] harli mini rex: was Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
         


         
        Congratulations, Marina!  That's wonderful!

        Brenda
        Foxaway Rabbits
        http://www.foxawayr abbits.com

        --- On Thu, 4/29/10, MARINA <samthase@aon. at> wrote:

        From: MARINA <samthase@aon. at>
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Re: Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Thursday, April 29, 2010, 3:34 PM

         

        That is what I do. I write down..actually copy it down and learn it by heart and then have fun with my rabbits if they lie to me again :)
         
        BTW: I got the harle accepted in Austria YESTERDAY :)
         
        Marina 
         
        -------Original Message----- --
         
        Date: 04/29/10 20:06:07
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Re: Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
         
         

        You should work on getting Harli Mini Rex recognized. :) Of course, after you are done with your other breeds. :)

        Natalie


        From: "Pwatersb@aol. com" <Pwatersb@aol. com>
        To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Thu, April 29, 2010 10:18:10 AM
        Subject: Re: [Rabbit_Genetics] Re: Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!

         

        Everyone seems to be a little touchy here, lets just get back to genetics for our rabbits. I enjoy reading the posts and writing down the things I find important to my future breedings of my bunnies.
         
        I will probably have many questions in regards to harley and Tricolor in the near future, as I will be getting my new Mini Lops the first part of next week and I am getting a tri buck and a carrier doe. I just love the coloring on the tris and harley, even though Harleys are not showable. I want to eventually get the chocolate tri and harleys in my Mini Lops, Lionheads and Holland Lops.
         
        Pam
         

        Trust in the Lord
        He Never Fails


        Redneck Rabbits Rabbitry
        http://redneckrabbi ts.tripod. com/


         
        In a message dated 4/29/2010 12:12:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, goldenspikerabbitry @... writes:
         

        I am very sorry to say this, but the article originally cited here was not some kind of proof that evolution did not occur or that mutations cannot "produce upward evolution." It merely reported that mutations alone cannot drive evolution. Duh! In fact, this was never what evolutionary theory suggested. Right form the beginning, it was a combination of heritable diversity (caused by mutations and recombinations of genetic material) AND natural selection (the sum of all factors and causes that influenced which individual organisms survived long enough to reproduce) that was the proposed mechanism. One more thing. Most mutations are NOT deleterious -most of them are silent.

        The notion that evolution has been "upward" is human=centric and unscientific. We have no evidence that human beings or any other creature represents any trend upward in any parameter but complexity. Complexity is not always a recipe for sustainability.

        I am offended and disheartened by creationist ideas on this group. It is off topic and will merely lead to argument and bad feelings. Many of us prefer to leave questions of personal faith out of our discussions of scientific matters for this reason. The two have no bearing on one another and do not even address the same issues. With regard to the breeding of rabbits, it seems to me that a creationist might even have serious issues - since should we not have left the rabbit as "God" created it?

        Please do not bring up this kind of contentious and outlandish material on this group. regards, Helga

        --- In Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com, foxaway rabbits <brendadewald@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi, Matthew.
        >  ÃƒƒÆ’ƒÃ¢â‚¬Å¡ ÃƒÆ’ƒÆ’ƒÃ¢â‚¬Å¡  I'll keep this short since this is not what this list is for.  I just want to say that there is indeed tons of scientific evidence out there to confirm the Biblical account of creation. Faith is the most important part of being a Christian but evidence is also important since we are called to 'always be prepared to give an answer to the hope that is in you'- 1 Peter 3:15.  Check out http://www.answersi ngenesis. org and while you're there subscribe to the "Answers" magazine.  It's an incredibly beautiful and Biblical publication.  There is actually a sister organization to this in Australia (Creation Ministries International) and they publish another wonderful magazine called "Creation".. .http://www.creation .com/   Also check out:
        > http://www.icr. org/
        > http://creationmuse um.org/
        > http://www.creation studies.org/
        >
        > Brenda
        >
        > Foxaway Rabbits
        >
        > http://www.foxawayr abbits.com/
        >
        > --- On Wed, 4/28/10, Matthew Ventura <cimarosa_bunnies@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Matthew Ventura <cimarosa_bunnies@ ...>
        > Subject: [Rabbit_Genetics] Mutations Can't Produce Upward Evolution!
        > To: Rabbit_Genetics@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Wednesday, April 28, 2010, 1:19 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Ted,
        >  
        > I have heard that viewpoint repeated many, many times. Creationists (or IDists - Intelligent Design, that is) are looking for ways to prove that evolution is scientifically impossible, and this is one of their favourite things to point towards to support this view. Unfortunately for them, however, there is reasonable evidence to refute this (the statement that mutations can't produce upward evolution), but for some reason, the people who don't want to know about it never seem to "find out" about it.
        >  
        > Being a Creationist myself, I have spent many many hours of research on this topic. Not just in evolution in general, but actually learning about mutations and things. In my research, I have come to the conclusion that it IS possible for a mutation to create new information (though not very likely at all, and the chances of it being advantageous are even smaller). Because generation of new information is possible, then the upward evolution of an organism is also possible. Not likely, but possible. Not nearly anywhere near as likely as any evolutionist would have you believe, but we're talking Science here, and when it comes to Science, you can't refute a theory based on the sole standpoint of it being "unlikely."
        >  
        > So even though I very firmly believe in Creation, I can't deny the fact that it HAS been scientifically proven that mutations can add new information that can be beneficial (even long-term) to the organism. If you would like to know more about how this has been proven, please email me privately to express your interest in knowing the truth. I don't want to clutter up this list with unwanted, unrelated scientific articles.
        >  
        > Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be judgmental or discourage you or anything (even though I probably am coming across that way - it is really hard to show one's real emotions through email sometimes, especially when discussing controversial Scientific subjects). I just want you to know the truth. Many people are deceived by things that simply "sound" scientific enough to be true. This applies to evolutionists, creationists, and everyone in between. That's why it's very important to collect information from a wide variety of sources, rather than sticking to what you read on certain websites (e.g. a Creationist reading from Creationist websites only, or an Evolutionist reading only Evolutionist websites). It's easy to find whatever you want "proven" on the internet, but you can never be 100% sure until you have confirmed it from a lot of different sources which have been compiled by people with different standpoints. And until you're
        > 100% about something, you shouldn't go around presenting it as fact to other unknowing people, or you'll only worsen the situation. Eventually half the population will "know" something as "fact" while the other half will "know" something conflicting as "fact," and when both sides start comparing notess, there will be lots of problems. No one will know who/what to believe, or even how much of what they've always been taught is actually true. Hence the importance of verifying every piece of information before presenting it as fact.
        >  
        > In all this, you also need to keep in mind that just because certain aspects of the Theory of Evolution are possible doesn't at all mean they actually happened. I believe that evolution of life forms to more improved life forms can be possible (though I haven't done my own scientific research, so can't verify that statement), but that is no reason why I can't know that God created the world! Whichever side you're on, you have to believe in at least some amount of biological evolution. If God only allowed 2 cats onto the Ark, how did we get all the cats we have today? That includes lions, tigers, leopards, pumas, ocelots, jaguars, domestic cats, and everything else. Obviously the 2 original cats must have "evolved" or "differentiated" into all the different cat species we have today. If you don't believe in biological evolution, you don't have much evidence for believing in Creation either.
        >  
        > Which brings me to another point. We have to face the fact that there really isn't a lot of known scientific evidence which points towards Creation. As Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." So all we as sinners are tricked into believing in something which is false - in this case it could be the evolution of humans from non-life. When you consider all the undisputable "facts" it may seem as if a theory like that is likely. That's why a Christian needs faith. If everything was clearly laid out before us, no one would need faith, and there would be no difference between Christians and non-believers. We know from God's Word what really happened, so why should we let these "facts" bother us? It just makes it
        > more difficult when you are trying to convince somebody else.
        >  
        > Always remember this point: being a Christian is not about seeing something no one else can see; it's about believing something that nobody can see!
        >  
        > So please let me know if you're interested about reading what has been discovered about mutations - particularly frameshift mutations. I'm sure you'd find it very interesting.
        >  
        > I'll leave it at that for now. I'm quite sure this post is long enough!
        >  
        > Regards, From Matthew.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >





         




         




         




         




         



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