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Why do you beleive in the Virgin Birth... Is it Science or Scripture?

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  • kurt_streutker
    Many apologists seem to side-step the whole issue of the so-called millions of years of death & suffering as it relates to the Creation account in Genesis.
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 9, 2007
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      Many apologists seem to side-step the whole issue of the "so-called"
      millions of years of death & suffering as it relates to the Creation
      account in Genesis.

      Have you delt with the theological, Biblical & philosophy behind the
      following statements?

      First: "Since God is the Author of Creation. . .Which every Christian
      would agree!"
      Is God also the Author of Millions of Years of Death, Bloodshed,
      Disease, Suffering, Mutations, and Extinction?

      In other words, is God going down the "Progressive Creation" highway
      of millions of years of time, leaving "Road-Kill" where ever He goes?
      Is God cruel, sadistic and extremely wasteful? Is that "Very" Good?
      Is that what the Bible clearly teaches?

      There are many who have rejected the Genesis record of Creation
      on what they believe are "scientific grounds." They believe that the
      current secular (naturalistic / humanistic) teachings of evolution and
      millions of years of earth history are accurate (e.g. Meredith Kline,
      Hugh
      Ross to name a few). Nonetheless, they have involved God in their
      particular versions of Creation, with "Theistic Evolution" and
      "Progressive Creation" being some of the more popular
      opinions circulating among churches today.

      This "slippery slope" is dangerous because they are not really
      defending Creation, but are actually bringing into question the very
      character and nature of God. By trusting man's fallible opinions over
      God's inerrant Word, they are making God the author of millions of
      years of death, suffering, bloodshed, disease, mutations, and
      extinction, etc.

      The obvious question is: "Would an all-powerful and loving God
      actually use this cruel and extremely wasteful process of evolution to
      create the world?" According to the Genesis record, God called the
      process "Good," and when He finished, God proclaimed His creation
      "Very good!"
      If He did create the world using this sadistic method over millions of
      years, that would mean that suffering and death are "Good" and
      consistent with the character and nature of God. It is ironic that
      these same people would insist that there will be no death, suffering,
      sickness, and disease in heaven, which would be contrary to even their
      sense of what is good.

      Tennyson observed our sin-cursed world and put it this way:
      "Nature red (i.e. bloody) in tooth and claw." According to these
      supposed creationists, science has proven, that it has been that way
      for millions of years. That's because they start outside of the Bible
      with our present "groaning" world (Rom. 8:22) and extrapolate back,
      and then use that as the basis to re-interpret the Scripture,
      believing that the "Present is the key to the past." They fail to
      realize that it was God who was there, and He has given us His account
      of Creation in Genesis.
      Hence, divine revelation is the only trustworthy key to the past,
      present, and future!

      Sadly, many influential Christians have endorsed these teachings
      by recommending their books, publishing their articles, and even
      giving them prime air-time. Furthermore, most Christian colleges and
      seminaries are confusing our young people, teaching that they can
      believe death and bloodshed are not the consequence of the Fall of Man
      (Rom.5:12), which invalidates the reason why Jesus Christ--the last
      Adam (1Cor. 15:45)--came to die and shed His blood on the Cross.
      According to many of these teachers who embrace these naturalistic
      presuppositions, there was not a Global Flood and that most fossils
      are not the result of a world-wide catastrophe, but merely millions of
      years of our loving, Heavenly Father "creating."

      This compromise is occurring because the Church has allowed
      science "falsely so-called" (i.e. evolutionary beliefs) to gain
      acceptance.
      As a result, those who object to a literal Genesis (which is
      the basis of all Christian theology such as marriage, original sin,
      the curse and death, the virgin birth of Messiah, and redemption),
      actually undermine the foundation for Biblical doctrine. Consequently,
      many who hold to these evolutionary paradigms, have doubted the
      Christian faith, questioning the authority of God and His Word, while
      defending the theories of men.

      Paul warned the Colossians to "Beware lest any man spoil you
      through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the world,
      and not after Christ...(2:8)" Furthermore, the Ephesian elders were
      told that false teachers will come in from the outside and even arise
      from the church, speaking "perverse things, to draw away disciples
      after them"
      (Acts 20:30).

      God is not the "author of confusion!" He has spoken as plainly
      as possible regarding the Creation, the Fall, the Flood, and the
      future restoration. The straightforward reading of the Genesis record
      clearly teaches that God created in six literal days. Even in Exodus
      20:9-11, God based our seven-day week on the days of Creation: "for in
      six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all
      that is in them, and rested on the seventh day."

      Why then the confusion? We are finite fallen creatures in a
      sin-cursed world using our fallible minds tainted with false
      humanistic assumptions. This often leads to Christians trying to
      re-define what the infinite all-knowing Creator clearly communicated
      His infallible Word.

      Christians leaders living in today's society should examine their
      understanding of Genesis to see if there are any secular assumptions
      that are influencing their beliefs about God and His Creation as set
      forth in His Word. We all must also bear in mind, it is not
      dishonorable to admit when we are wrong, for it is only humbly
      admitting we are a little wiser today.

      Paul, please respond (if possible), I would like for you to
      consider these thoughts. If not, please give careful consideration
      to this topic, because apologetics must deal with Genesis!!
      Either it is the Word of God and infallible or it is not trustworthy
      and fallible.

      BTW, So I now ask you a simular question you asked Mr. Ham:
      "What AMOUNT of evidence would it take to convince you that YOUR view
      of the virgin birth of Christ or His resurrection was wrong?"
    • Dave Oldridge
      ... They are not so-called. They are obseerved fact. Of course it is YOU who thinks God is somehow averse to death--the same God the writers of the Old
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 10, 2007
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        On 10 Dec 2007 at 6:16, kurt_streutker wrote:

        > Many apologists seem to side-step the whole issue of the
        > "so-called" millions of years of death & suffering as it
        > relates to the Creation account in Genesis.

        They are not "so-called." They are obseerved fact. Of course it
        is YOU who thinks God is somehow averse to death--the same God
        the writers of the Old Testament sacrificed animals to.

        > Have you delt with the theological, Biblical & philosophy
        > behind the following statements?


        > First: "Since God is the Author of Creation. . .Which every
        > Christian would agree!" Is God also the Author of Millions of
        > Years of Death, Bloodshed, Disease, Suffering, Mutations, and
        > Extinction?

        Well there were millions of years of all those things. I guess
        your faith is just too weak to deal with it.

        > In other words, is God going down the "Progressive Creation"
        > highway of millions of years of time, leaving "Road-Kill" where
        > ever He goes? Is God cruel, sadistic and extremely wasteful? Is
        > that "Very" Good? Is that what the Bible clearly teaches?

        So now you're important enough to judge God. I always knew you
        were a narcissist, but this is taking it to a whole new level.
        Of course, one thing about your from of worship, you need a
        mirrir to see yourself kneeling before your god.

        >
        > There are many who have rejected the Genesis record of Creation
        > on what they believe are "scientific grounds." They believe

        They are. Anyone claiming scientific evidence of a young earth
        is lying, either about the evidence or about his expertise in
        interpreting it. Maybe your deity likes such lies. Mine hates
        them.

        > that the current secular (naturalistic / humanistic) teachings
        > of evolution and millions of years of earth history are accurate
        > (e.g. Meredith Kline, Hugh Ross to name a few). Nonetheless, they
        > have involved God in their particular versions of Creation, with
        > "Theistic Evolution" and "Progressive Creation" being some of
        > the more popular opinions circulating among churches today.

        Well, God is either implicated as creator or as deceiver in your
        theology. No wonder it's no problem for your apologists to lie
        about science all the time!

        > This "slippery slope" is dangerous because they are not really
        > defending Creation, but are actually bringing into question
        > the very character and nature of God. By trusting man's fallible
        > opinions over God's inerrant Word, they are making God the
        > author of millions of years of death, suffering, bloodshed,
        > disease, mutations, and extinction, etc.

        They are trusting observation and experiment over your claim to
        know that God is a deceiver.

        > The obvious question is: "Would an all-powerful and loving God
        > actually use this cruel and extremely wasteful process of
        > evolution to create the world?" According to the Genesis
        > record, God called the process "Good," and when He finished, God
        > proclaimed His creation "Very good!" If He did create the world
        > using this sadistic method over millions of years, that would
        > mean that suffering and death are "Good" and consistent with
        > the character and nature of God. It is ironic that these same
        > people would insist that there will be no death, suffering,
        > sickness, and disease in heaven, which would be contrary to
        > even their sense of what is good.

        Again you're confused. Given your animosity towards creation as
        it actually is, coupled with your complete lack of actual faith,
        maybe you should take up atheism. It's a cut above the kind of
        demonolatry you're advocating here.

        > Tennyson observed our sin-cursed world and put it this way:
        > "Nature red (i.e. bloody) in tooth and claw." According to
        > these supposed creationists, science has proven, that it has
        > been that way for millions of years. That's because they start

        That's what the scientific evidence tells us. Anyose saying
        different is lying, either about the science or about knowing it.

        > outside of the Bible with our present "groaning" world (Rom.
        > 8:22) and extrapolate back, and then use that as the basis to
        > re-interpret the Scripture, believing that the "Present is the
        > key to the past." They fail to realize that it was God who was
        > there, and He has given us His account of Creation in Genesis.
        > Hence, divine revelation is the only trustworthy key to the
        > past, present, and future!

        enesis was not written by any gods. It was written by men.
        Inspired by their love of God and desire to know Him, but men
        nevertheless. They had no good science at their disposal and
        thought the earth to be a flat plate set on pillars and
        surmounted by a sold sky (firmament). Any sensible scholar knows
        this and does not take the work as a literal scientific history.
        But ye of little faith insist on bending science out of shape so
        that you can pretend to yourselves that it butresses your half-
        baked theology. Get an education in actual orthodox Christian
        theology and stop trying to dictate your ideas to God. He
        doesn't like that very much.

        > Sadly, many influential Christians have endorsed these
        > teachings by recommending their books, publishing their
        > articles, and even giving them prime air-time. Furthermore, most
        > Christian colleges and seminaries are confusing our young
        > people, teaching that they can believe death and bloodshed are
        > not the consequence of the Fall of Man (Rom.5:12), which
        > invalidates the reason why Jesus Christ--the last Adam (1Cor.
        > 15:45)--came to die and shed His blood on the Cross. According
        > to many of these teachers who embrace these naturalistic
        > presuppositions, there was not a Global Flood and that most
        > fossils are not the result of a world-wide catastrophe, but
        > merely millions of years of our loving, Heavenly Father
        > "creating."

        Science must go where the physical evidence leads. But then the
        real reason you don't like that is that you don't like God.

        > This compromise is occurring because the Church has allowed
        > science "falsely so-called" (i.e. evolutionary beliefs) to gain
        > acceptance. As a result, those who object to a literal Genesis

        What is falsely called "science" is the crappy lies put about,
        sometimes naively but sometimes deliberately by young-earth
        apologists. And, as someone who has been repeatedly admonished,
        you are clearly guilty right here of obdurate false witness.

        > (which is the basis of all Christian theology such as marriage,
        > original sin, the curse and death, the virgin birth of Messiah,
        > and redemption), actually undermine the foundation for Biblical
        > doctrine. Consequently, many who hold to these evolutionary
        > paradigms, have doubted the Christian faith, questioning the
        > authority of God and His Word, while defending the theories of
        > men.

        You know NOTHING about Christian theology. What you're preaching
        is a horrble parody of it.

        And it is you who is questioning the authority of God and His
        word by placing your judgment above His and by pretending that
        your own private interpretation of Genesis is His word.


        > Paul warned the Colossians to "Beware lest any man spoil you
        > through philosophy and vain deceit, after the rudiments of the
        > world, and not after Christ...(2:8)" Furthermore, the Ephesian
        > elders were told that false teachers will come in from the
        > outside and even arise from the church, speaking "perverse
        > things, to draw away disciples after them"

        Does it never occur to you that these false teachings are yours?
        When you tell me that I must lie about science to be saved, you
        are teachingrank HERESY! Paul did warn about people like you!


        > (Acts 20:30).
        >
        > God is not the "author of confusion!" He has spoken as plainly
        > as possible regarding the Creation, the Fall, the Flood, and
        > the future restoration. The straightforward reading of the
        > Genesis record clearly teaches that God created in six literal
        > days. Even in Exodus 20:9-11, God based our seven-day week on
        > the days of Creation: "for in six days the LORD made the heavens
        > and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on
        > the seventh day."
        >
        > Why then the confusion? We are finite fallen creatures in a
        > sin-cursed world using our fallible minds tainted with false
        > humanistic assumptions. This often leads to Christians trying
        > to re-define what the infinite all-knowing Creator clearly
        > communicated His infallible Word.

        The confusion is your devotion to the heresy of sola scriptura ad
        litteram, whereby you elevate scripture above God and your own
        interpretation above all others.
        >
        > Christians leaders living in today's society should examine
        > their understanding of Genesis to see if there are any secular
        > assumptions that are influencing their beliefs about God and
        > His Creation as set forth in His Word. We all must also bear in
        > mind, it is not dishonorable to admit when we are wrong, for it
        > is only humbly admitting we are a little wiser today.

        If you young-earthers would only state outright that you simply
        reject science. Period. For religious reasons. Period. Then
        you would at least be worthy of a modicum of respect for an
        honest and consistent position. But no! You are driven by your
        devils to concoct cunning lies about science and to try to use
        the power of the sword to force your heretical dogmas into our
        secular public schools as a back door into those churches too
        orthodox to invite you in the front as anything but penitents.


        >
        > Paul, please respond (if possible), I would like for you to
        > consider these thoughts. If not, please give careful
        > consideration to this topic, because apologetics must deal with
        > Genesis!! Either it is the Word of God and infallible or it is
        > not trustworthy and fallible.

        Genesis is neither. Especially if you're talking about
        scientific infallibility.

        >
        > BTW, So I now ask you a simular question you asked Mr. Ham:
        > "What AMOUNT of evidence would it take to convince you that
        > YOUR view of the virgin birth of Christ or His resurrection was
        > wrong?"

        Hmmmm. Would a DNA sample from what was indisputably Jesus'
        corpse be enough for YOU?

        > Read it for yourself - "Refuting Compromise" (See it for
        > yourself why the RTB staff will not comment on Dr. Sarfati's
        > scientific and logical arguments and Biblical critique of the
        > teachings of Dr. Ross and his devoted followers.)
        > GO TO: http://www.creationontheweb.com
        >

        Why? Truth is not valued there.

        --

        Dave Oldridge
        ICQ 1800667
        VA7CZ
      • aigsfavoriteperson
        Karate Kid: Many apologists seem to side-step the whole issue of the so-called millions of years of death & suffering as it relates to the Creation account
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 10, 2007
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          Karate Kid: Many apologists seem to side-step the whole issue of
          the "so-called" millions of years of death & suffering as it relates
          to the Creation account in Genesis.

          AFP: I don't and I know many others that don't.

          Karate Kid: First: "Since God is the Author of Creation. . .Which
          every Christian would agree!" Is God also the Author of Millions of
          Years of Death, Bloodshed, Disease, Suffering, mutations, and
          Extinction?

          AFP: Yes, did He not create all?

          Karate Kid: In other words, is God going down the "Progressive
          Creation" highway of millions of years of time, leaving "Road-Kill"
          where ever He goes?

          AFP: Yes. Do you not think that Adam & Eve and all the other
          creatures (which in your scenario would include dinosaurs) could roam
          about without creating the "road-kill" of at least insects and other
          small creatures?

          Karate Kid: Is God cruel, sadistic and extremely wasteful? Is
          that "Very" Good? Is that what the Bible clearly teaches?

          AFP: No, but "Cruel, sadistic, wastful"... are your definitions -
          not mine. I don't presume to judge God - apparently, you do. You
          might as well ask why He created Satan (did He not know he would
          sin). Why did He allow Satan to enter the Garden? In fact, didn't He
          know that man would sin if tempted? If not, He would not be
          omnicient. So deos this mean God is "cruel, sadistic, and wasteful"?
          Consider Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all [things] for himself:
          yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (KJV)

          Karate Kid: There are many who have rejected the Genesis record of
          Creation on what they believe are "scientific grounds."

          AFP: Many who have rejected YOUR INTERPRETATION of it... on many
          grounds.

          Karate Kid: They believe that the current secular (naturalistic /
          humanistic) teachings of evolution and millions of years of earth
          history are accurate (e.g. Meredith Kline, Hugh Ross to name a few).
          Nonetheless, they have involved God in their particular versions of
          Creation, with "Theistic Evolution" and "Progressive Creation" being
          some of the more popular opinions circulating among churches today.

          AFP: Now you have resorted to lying... for axample, you KNOW that
          Ross does not believe "current secular (naturalistic / humanistic)
          teachings of evolution".

          Karate Kid: This "slippery slope" is dangerous because they are not
          really defending Creation, but are actually bringing into question
          the very character and nature of God. By trusting man's fallible
          opinions over God's inerrant Word, they are making God the author of
          millions of years of death, suffering, bloodshed, disease, mutations,
          and extinction, etc.

          AFP: Quite the opposite my friend. OECs do defend creation, you make
          a mockery of it by bringing along all your young earth baggage.
          The "baggage" that secular evolutionists attempt to paint every
          creationist (of any stripe) with in order to prove it's hogwash. I
          already commented on your judgemental pronouncements regarding the
          natural order.

          Karate Kid: The obvious question is: "Would an all-powerful and
          loving God actually use this cruel and extremely wasteful process of
          evolution to create the world?" According to the Genesis record, God
          called the process "Good," and when He finished, God proclaimed His
          creation "Very good!"

          AFP: Again, many here would not say that He used evolution. Atleast
          not the type that includes "molecules to man" (to use the words of
          your idol) .

          Karate Kid: If He did create the world using this sadistic method
          over millions of years, that would mean that suffering and death
          are "Good" and consistent with the character and nature of God. It is
          ironic that these same people would insist that there will be no
          death, suffering, sickness, and disease in heaven, which would be
          contrary to even their sense of what is good.

          AFP: Your emotional pleading and personal judgements knoweth no
          bounds. Was it evil for God to command Moses to enter a city and kill
          all men, women, children, infants, and even their livestock?

          Karate Kid: Tennyson observed our sin-cursed world and put it this
          way: "Nature red (i.e. bloody) in tooth and claw." According to these
          supposed creationists, science has proven, that it has been that way
          for millions of years. That's because they start outside of the Bible
          with our present "groaning" world (Rom. 8:22) and extrapolate back,
          and then use that as the basis to re-interpret the Scripture,
          believing that the "Present is the key to the past." They fail to
          realize that it was God who was there, and He has given us His
          account of Creation in Genesis. Hence, divine revelation is the only
          trustworthy key to the past, present, and future!

          AFP: I don't really care what Tennyson thought. But again, this all
          rests on your judgements regarding God's providence. I would think
          that for you to be consistient would be quite difficult... how do you
          think God is who you think He is - if He even allows these things to
          happen? I know you will probably say that's not what He intended, man
          sinned and screwed it all up.. but even that means, God allowed his
          plans to be thwarted if you believe the way you do. And how is it in
          keeping with His charcter, if He allows all this (perceived bad by
          you) to happen to His creation and creatures? Grow up man, fish are
          food - not friends!

          Karate Kid: Sadly, many influential Christians have endorsed these
          teachings by recommending their books, publishing their articles, and
          even giving them prime air-time. Furthermore, most Christian colleges
          and seminaries are confusing our young people, teaching that they can
          believe death and bloodshed are not the consequence of the Fall of
          Man (Rom.5:12), which invalidates the reason why Jesus Christ--the
          last Adam (1Cor. 15:45)--came to die and shed His blood on the Cross.
          According to many of these teachers who embrace these naturalistic
          presuppositions, there was not a Global Flood and that most fossils
          are not the result of a world-wide catastrophe, but merely millions
          of years of our loving, Heavenly Father "creating."

          AFP: You sound like a broken record, death, bloodshed... death
          bloodshed... death bloodshed. Your passage makes it clear that this
          instituted death for what? Can you say M-A-N? Why is it that
          whenever YECs quote this verse, they cut it off right in the middle?
          You know, your are prohibited from not only adding to the word of
          God, but taking away as well.

          I'm not going to address any more of your posting... it is more of
          the same and looks like you even cut and pasted this response in from
          some other group!
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