Re: Msg for Gene
- Here's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTB_Discussion_Group/message/1>
the first message that was ever posted on here.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- No offense, but what part of "Msg for Gene" did you not understand?
And the post you referenced does not address my questions in any
case. All that post does is prove what Hugh Ross haters the
initiators of this group are. It really should come as no surprise
It was started by a cadre of AiG employees (past & present) who hate
ANYONE who does not march lock in step with their VERY specific and
narrow interpretation of Genesis.
Just to name a few, they have attacked:
Gorman Gray (a gap theorist who actually believes in 6 24 hr day
Martin De Haan/Radio Bible Class
Sonlight (a home school organization)
Wheaton College (a Christian University)
The list (and shameful) behavior goes on
<In RTB_Discussion_Group@yahoogroups.com, "blueshanghaiwolfe"
> the first message that was ever posted on here.
- You had to read the replies. The third message down touches on this
issue. I was mainly just referencing this to show that there is
nothing new under the sun. Here's the message. Sorry I'm not Gene.
Regarding no animal death:
Young-earth creationists insist that there was no death of any kind
prior to the "fall" (man's sin). The entire reason for this doctrine
is that it places all death after mans sin. Why is that important to
young earthers? It dates every creature in the fossil record to after
the fall. This arms them with alleged Biblical proof that the earth
is VERY young. As we shall see this concept of no death prior to the
fall is indeed the "weakest of reeds".
These are the 3 passages that are summoned on to support this
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
together until now."
I don't see any backing for this belief here... do you?
They also point out 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 - but leave out verses 20
and 23... for good reason - it kills the theory!
1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the firstfruits of them that slept."
1 Corinthians 15:21 "For since by man came death, by man came also
the resurrection of the dead."
1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall
all be made alive."
1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the
firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
I don't think the animal kingdom will participate in the
resurrection... do you?
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by
sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Hello? This is speaking of Adam's sin and how it passes to all men.
There is no mention of all the rest of the creatures of creation
(mammals, fish, birds, insects, plants, bacteria, virus etc). You may
not have seen this verse quoted in its entirety before. Young earth
creationists always stop the quote after the semi-colan; the second
half of the verse depicting "all men" only, is always conveniently
left out in their materials. This in my opinion is outright deception!
Death was man's punishment for sin. Man was the only creature given
the possibility of immortality by God. Bacteria, cockroaches, plants,
horses, and my pets never had that possibility. To interpret this
verse as implying no death of any creatures prior to man's sin is
taking the verse further than it can go.
The very fact that God created reproduction, argues strongly that
death, at least for the animals and other lower life forms, was part
of the creation. If reproduction was not designed to compensate for
death, why not place all the creatures you wanted here and simply let
them live forever! Look at bacterial reproduction... If unchecked by
death, they would cover the entire Earth in less than a week's time.
Cockroaches are well renown for their reproduction. Do we really
think that God created a world in which cockroaches would continue to
multiply without end? No, death was part of nature at the creation of
Adam, but Adam had the opportunity to not participate in that death
had He made the correct choice.
Further, this passage probably refers to spiritual death rather than
physical death anyway. Adam indeed did not physically die immediately
after eating the forbidden fruit. He died spiritually immediately
after eating the fruit. Not only that but it is insinuated that with
ongoing access to the tree of life, Adam would have lived forever
despite sin, this is why the way to the tree of life is blocked. See
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to
know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take
also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the
LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground
from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at
the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which
turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
Let's look at the creation of vegetation in a little more detail...
The Bible says (in Genesis 1:11) "And God said, Let the earth bring
forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding
fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it
was so." This is an implied reference to soil. It even mentions
seeds. This depicts plant activity as we understand it today - with
seeds being in soil, being watered, germinating, and growing into
mature plants. What is "soil"... Does it not consist of many
generations of dead and dying organisms??? Does not the presence of
this soil itself require much time to form? I don't think you can
invoke miracles here either because God clearly defers this activity
to the Earth.
I have challenged many young earth creationists to site 1 Biblical
verse that says there was no animal death prior to man's fall - I
have yet to see one. I do however have one that I believe indicates
there indeed was animal death prior to man's fall. Psalm 104 deals
with creation, consider verse 21:
"The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from
Remember that Psalm 104 deals strictly with the subject of
creation... and I don't think berries can be considered "prey", and
you certainly would'nt roar after them!
Animals not dying... is this credible? Vegetarian predators... can
you imagine a T-Rex eating berries? All the predatory animals with
their fierce claws and fangs begging Eve to take the fruit so they
could eat meat? What of sea life... there are not exactly fruit trees
growing under the ocean! What did killer whales or sharks eat early
on? I used to have elaborate aquarium setups... they require a very
delicate death and decay cycle involving micro organisms to provide
liveable water. What did Venus Flytrap plants do? What of all the
parasitic relationships (some of which are beneficial to their host)?
Would every tiny creature (like brine shrimp) be prevented from being
sucked up by whales combing the ocean for food (as they do)? I could
go on and on here. How do we expect to be taken seriously with these
Another issue to consider is... if animal death is so against God's
plans... why did He kill the first animals - and skin them?
Consider Genesis 3:21
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins,
and clothed them."
Further, animal sacrifice is demanded throughout the Old Testament.
How do Christians fall prey to this ludicrous belief? It basically
comes down to a gut feeling, that God's creations devouring one
another cannot be perfect! This is arrogance! Who are we - to be
critics of God's creation?
Consider Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my
ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your
Consider Romans 9:19-20
"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou
made me thus?"
You don't think you make judgements concerning God's creation? Do you
think that EVERY creature is beautiful and perfect? You think so?
What about; viper snakes, cock roaches, pigs, etc. What about every
day things like going to the bathroom... is that in your eyes
beautiful, aromatic, and perfect? And further, God never pronounces
this creation perfect, just "good" and "very good". The new heaven
and new earth will be perfect creation after his ongoing day of rest
from his current creation (I will elaborate on this "rest" later).
I also believe the view that animals killing one another is so
terrible - is "new age" creep into Christianity. The new age liberals
are the ones that are worried about every criminal's well being
(against capital punishment), against any form of hunting or killing
of ANY animal! After all, they think that each person and animal is
God (or a god) - greatly and artificially elevating the
meaningfulness of temporal life on this planet.
Remember that the old Testament is pretty bloody! God himself
commanded the slaughter of animals, men, women and children. We as a
society have become squeamish - eating only prepackaged and processed
foods. Most (myself included) would have a hard time fending for
ourselves without Krogers!