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Re: Msg for Gene

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  • blueshanghaiwolfe
    Here s the first message that was ever posted on here. [Non-text portions of this message have
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 2 2:36 PM
      Here's <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTB_Discussion_Group/message/1>
      the first message that was ever posted on here.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • aigsfavoriteperson
      No offense, but what part of Msg for Gene did you not understand? And the post you referenced does not address my questions in any case. All that post does
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 3 8:41 AM
        No offense, but what part of "Msg for Gene" did you not understand?

        And the post you referenced does not address my questions in any
        case. All that post does is prove what Hugh Ross haters the
        initiators of this group are. It really should come as no surprise…
        It was started by a cadre of AiG employees (past & present) who hate
        ANYONE who does not march lock in step with their VERY specific and
        narrow interpretation of Genesis.

        Just to name a few, they have attacked:
        James Dobson
        John Ankerberg
        Pat Robertson
        Gorman Gray (a gap theorist who actually believes in 6 24 hr day
        Christianity Today
        Martin De Haan/Radio Bible Class
        Chuck Colson
        Sonlight (a home school organization)
        Wheaton College (a Christian University)

        The list (and shameful) behavior goes on…

        <In RTB_Discussion_Group@yahoogroups.com, "blueshanghaiwolfe"
        <ryancwolfe@...> wrote:
        > Here's
        > the first message that was ever posted on here.
      • blueshanghaiwolfe
        You had to read the replies. The third message down touches on this issue. I was mainly just referencing this to show that there is nothing new under the
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 3 11:30 AM
          You had to read the replies. The third message down touches on this
          issue. I was mainly just referencing this to show that there is
          nothing new under the sun. Here's the message. Sorry I'm not Gene.

          Regarding no animal death:

          Young-earth creationists insist that there was no death of any kind
          prior to the "fall" (man's sin). The entire reason for this doctrine
          is that it places all death after mans sin. Why is that important to
          young earthers? It dates every creature in the fossil record to after
          the fall. This arms them with alleged Biblical proof that the earth
          is VERY young. As we shall see this concept of no death prior to the
          fall is indeed the "weakest of reeds".

          These are the 3 passages that are summoned on to support this

          Romans 8:22
          "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain
          together until now."

          I don't see any backing for this belief here... do you?

          They also point out 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 - but leave out verses 20
          and 23... for good reason - it kills the theory!

          1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
          become the firstfruits of them that slept."

          1 Corinthians 15:21 "For since by man came death, by man came also
          the resurrection of the dead."
          1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall
          all be made alive."

          1 Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the
          firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

          I don't think the animal kingdom will participate in the
          resurrection... do you?

          Romans 5:12
          "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by
          sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

          Hello? This is speaking of Adam's sin and how it passes to all men.
          There is no mention of all the rest of the creatures of creation
          (mammals, fish, birds, insects, plants, bacteria, virus etc). You may
          not have seen this verse quoted in its entirety before. Young earth
          creationists always stop the quote after the semi-colan; the second
          half of the verse depicting "all men" only, is always conveniently
          left out in their materials. This in my opinion is outright deception!

          Death was man's punishment for sin. Man was the only creature given
          the possibility of immortality by God. Bacteria, cockroaches, plants,
          horses, and my pets never had that possibility. To interpret this
          verse as implying no death of any creatures prior to man's sin is
          taking the verse further than it can go.

          The very fact that God created reproduction, argues strongly that
          death, at least for the animals and other lower life forms, was part
          of the creation. If reproduction was not designed to compensate for
          death, why not place all the creatures you wanted here and simply let
          them live forever! Look at bacterial reproduction... If unchecked by
          death, they would cover the entire Earth in less than a week's time.
          Cockroaches are well renown for their reproduction. Do we really
          think that God created a world in which cockroaches would continue to
          multiply without end? No, death was part of nature at the creation of
          Adam, but Adam had the opportunity to not participate in that death
          had He made the correct choice.

          Further, this passage probably refers to spiritual death rather than
          physical death anyway. Adam indeed did not physically die immediately
          after eating the forbidden fruit. He died spiritually immediately
          after eating the fruit. Not only that but it is insinuated that with
          ongoing access to the tree of life, Adam would have lived forever
          despite sin, this is why the way to the tree of life is blocked. See
          passage below.

          Genesis 3:22-24
          "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to
          know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take
          also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the
          LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground
          from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at
          the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which
          turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

          Let's look at the creation of vegetation in a little more detail...
          The Bible says (in Genesis 1:11) "And God said, Let the earth bring
          forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding
          fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it
          was so." This is an implied reference to soil. It even mentions
          seeds. This depicts plant activity as we understand it today - with
          seeds being in soil, being watered, germinating, and growing into
          mature plants. What is "soil"... Does it not consist of many
          generations of dead and dying organisms??? Does not the presence of
          this soil itself require much time to form? I don't think you can
          invoke miracles here either because God clearly defers this activity
          to the Earth.

          I have challenged many young earth creationists to site 1 Biblical
          verse that says there was no animal death prior to man's fall - I
          have yet to see one. I do however have one that I believe indicates
          there indeed was animal death prior to man's fall. Psalm 104 deals
          with creation, consider verse 21:

          "The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from

          Remember that Psalm 104 deals strictly with the subject of
          creation... and I don't think berries can be considered "prey", and
          you certainly would'nt roar after them!

          Animals not dying... is this credible? Vegetarian predators... can
          you imagine a T-Rex eating berries? All the predatory animals with
          their fierce claws and fangs begging Eve to take the fruit so they
          could eat meat? What of sea life... there are not exactly fruit trees
          growing under the ocean! What did killer whales or sharks eat early
          on? I used to have elaborate aquarium setups... they require a very
          delicate death and decay cycle involving micro organisms to provide
          liveable water. What did Venus Flytrap plants do? What of all the
          parasitic relationships (some of which are beneficial to their host)?

          Would every tiny creature (like brine shrimp) be prevented from being
          sucked up by whales combing the ocean for food (as they do)? I could
          go on and on here. How do we expect to be taken seriously with these
          crazy beliefs!

          Another issue to consider is... if animal death is so against God's
          plans... why did He kill the first animals - and skin them?

          Consider Genesis 3:21
          "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins,
          and clothed them."

          Further, animal sacrifice is demanded throughout the Old Testament.

          How do Christians fall prey to this ludicrous belief? It basically
          comes down to a gut feeling, that God's creations devouring one
          another cannot be perfect! This is arrogance! Who are we - to be
          critics of God's creation?

          Consider Isaiah 55:8-9

          "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my
          ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
          so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your

          Consider Romans 9:19-20

          "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath
          resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
          God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou
          made me thus?"

          You don't think you make judgements concerning God's creation? Do you
          think that EVERY creature is beautiful and perfect? You think so?
          What about; viper snakes, cock roaches, pigs, etc. What about every
          day things like going to the bathroom... is that in your eyes
          beautiful, aromatic, and perfect? And further, God never pronounces
          this creation perfect, just "good" and "very good". The new heaven
          and new earth will be perfect creation after his ongoing day of rest
          from his current creation (I will elaborate on this "rest" later).

          I also believe the view that animals killing one another is so
          terrible - is "new age" creep into Christianity. The new age liberals
          are the ones that are worried about every criminal's well being
          (against capital punishment), against any form of hunting or killing
          of ANY animal! After all, they think that each person and animal is
          God (or a god) - greatly and artificially elevating the
          meaningfulness of temporal life on this planet.

          Remember that the old Testament is pretty bloody! God himself
          commanded the slaughter of animals, men, women and children. We as a
          society have become squeamish - eating only prepackaged and processed
          foods. Most (myself included) would have a hard time fending for
          ourselves without Krogers!

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