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Re: [RTB Discussion Group] ICR After Eden: (Was RC Sproul saw the light....)

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  • Mark Penn
    Again, pardon me for marketing my book, but the very reason I wrote it was to show evangelical believers that ICR is simply and flatly WRONG in this assertion
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 24, 2006
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      Again, pardon me for marketing my book, but the very reason I wrote it was to show evangelical believers that ICR is simply and flatly WRONG in this assertion that animal death before the fall is the central issue attacking biblical orthodoxy in our day (that is close to a direct quote from Doug Phillips).

      This simply is not the case.


      *** Of course this IS the case as ALL DEATH is listed as an enemy that will ultimately be done away with. I proved this from scripture as has many others. You are just too foolish or prideful or both to face up to this key fact that refutes you and your heresy.






      The entire YEC worldview is motivated by a view of God that cannot tolerate the notion that He had anything in mind beside the personal comfort and welfare of His image-bearers.


      *** LIAR! It is based upon the fact that God's word comes first. It does not share with the idiotic ideas of folks like you that repeat the errors of the Israelites that bent their knees to Baal. We know this as the strongest rebuke that Jesus had was for folks like you that replaced his word with traditions of men and acted as if they were both the same thing. You people never learn as you refuse to humble yourself before him and accept the fact that you don't know him and never did.




      They justify this on several weak bases, each of which I deconstruct. (Note that Ken Ham no longer says that the doctrine of atonement is directly related to animal death before the fall)


      *** LIAR! It turns out that I caught you in yet another lie:

      Implications about suffering, if you accept this view of history. If one believes in millions of years, then this world has always been a deadly place. The question that we naturally ask is ‘Who caused the cancer, disease and violence represented in the fossil record?’ Christians who believe in millions of years of history have a serious problem. The Bible plainly says that God is the Creator, and He called everything that He had made—before, leading up to, and including Adam and Eve, but before their Fall—‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31).

      The Bible gives the right view of history—and the right view of God! Fortunately, God has given us a different account of the history of death, recorded in His Word—the Bible. This historical document connects to real issues of life, and it fully explains why horrible things happen. In fact, God’s Word has much to say about death.
      ‘Sin and death.’ This phrase sums up the true history of death, as recorded in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. God originally created a perfect world, described by God as ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31). People and animals ate plants, not other animals (Genesis 1:29–30). There was no violence or pain in this ‘very good’ world.
      But this sinless world was marred by the rebellion of the first man, Adam. His sin brought an intruder into the world—death. God had to judge sin with death, as He warned Adam He would (Genesis 2:17, cf. 3:19).
      Indeed, God apparently caused the first death in the world—an animal was slain to make clothing for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). As a result of God’s judgment on the world, God has given us a taste of life without Him—a world that is running down—a world full of death and suffering. As Romans 8:22 says, ‘the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs’—because God Himself subjected the creation to processes of decay (v. 20).
      http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/death_suffering.asp



      Again, this YEC worldview in my opinion is based on a sentimental view of what God is like and when critically examined from a biblical perspective, it is internally inconsistent and bad theology in my opinion.


      *** Of course you would think this as clearly you don't know him and never did. I think I proved this by the much scripture I have posted that you ignored totally. Those that knoe him know that everything submits itself to his word, not the other way around.


      Mark


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    • whortms
      Regarding Ken Ham s position, what Pennster refers to was his *former* position. But much to his credit -- Ham has evidently realized that his previous
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 26, 2006
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        Regarding Ken Ham's position, what Pennster refers to was his
        *former* position. But much to his credit -- Ham has evidently
        realized that his previous position was wrong and has backed away
        from claiming that the atonement is directly related to animal death
        before the fall. Now he only says that it is related indirectly as
        he claims animal death undermines biblical authority in general.
        (This of course is circular because the conclusion begs the premise).

        Ham denied the direct linkage during the recent Ankerberg debate
        from a few months back when Hugh asked him point blank to state his
        position.

        Mark Whorton

        heavily snipped previous message....

        >
        > Mark Whorton wrote ... Note that Ken Ham no longer says that
        the doctrine of atonement is directly related to animal death before
        the fall
        >
        Pennster wrote back...
        > *** LIAR! It turns out that I caught you in yet another lie:
        ....
      • Mark Penn
        Regarding Ken Ham s position, what Pennster refers to was his *former* position. But much to his credit -- Ham has evidently realized that his previous
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 26, 2006
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          Regarding Ken Ham's position, what Pennster refers to was his
          *former* position. But much to his credit -- Ham has evidently
          realized that his previous position was wrong and has backed away
          from claiming that the atonement is directly related to animal death
          before the fall.


          *** That is a ridiculous LIE! What I posted can right now this very minute be found at the AIG web site and also can be seen on the weekly AIG program every Friday and Saturday on the Liberty Channel. Ham and AIG has NEVER redacted this as you wish they had done. They have consistently said that ALL death is the result of sin.


          Mark


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        • Mark Whorton
          Sheesh you have a hard head. It is not a ridiculous lie -- I gave you the source. You Go watch the Ankerberg videos and you will hear your Master s new
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 26, 2006
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            Sheesh you have a hard head. It is not a ridiculous lie -- I gave you the source. You Go watch the Ankerberg videos and you will hear your Master's new position for yourself.

            Now stay with me here -- maybe even actually read what I type this time. I never said that he redacted his opinion that all death came from sin. What I said was he "has backed away from claiming that the atonement is directly related to animal death
            before the fall."

            Whorton

            Mark Penn <yeshuahameshiach15065@...> wrote:
            Regarding Ken Ham's position, what Pennster refers to was his
            *former* position. But much to his credit -- Ham has evidently
            realized that his previous position was wrong and has backed away
            from claiming that the atonement is directly related to animal death
            before the fall.


            *** That is a ridiculous LIE! What I posted can right now this very minute be found at the AIG web site and also can be seen on the weekly AIG program every Friday and Saturday on the Liberty Channel. Ham and AIG has NEVER redacted this as you wish they had done. They have consistently said that ALL death is the result of sin.


            Mark









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          • PIASAN@aol.com
            ... From: Mark Penn To: RTB_Discussion_Group@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [RTB
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 27, 2006
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark Penn <yeshuahameshiach15065@...>
              To: RTB_Discussion_Group@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
              Subject: Re: [RTB Discussion Group] ICR After Eden: (Was RC Sproul saw the light....)





              Implications about suffering, if you accept this view of history. If one believes in millions of years, then this world has always been a deadly place. The question that we naturally ask is ‘Who caused the cancer, disease and violence represented in the fossil record?’ Christians who believe in millions of years of history have a serious problem. The Bible plainly says that God is the Creator, and He called everything that He had made—before, leading up to, and including Adam and Eve, but before their Fall—‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31).

              The Bible gives the right view of history—and the right view of God! Fortunately, God has given us a different account of the history of death, recorded in His Word—the Bible. This historical document connects to real issues of life, and it fully explains why horrible things happen. In fact, God’s Word has much to say about death.
              ‘Sin and death.’ This phrase sums up the true history of death, as recorded in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. God originally created a perfect world, described by God as ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31). People and animals ate plants, not other animals (Genesis 1:29–30). There was no violence or pain in this ‘very good’ world.
              ******
              Pi:
              "Very good" is not "perfect". In fact, a strong argument can be made that God's creation was NOT perfect. After all, YEC point to man's "flawed" (or "sinful" if you prefer) nature. If man was flawed, the creation could not have been perfect..


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