Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Firefighting questions

Expand Messages
  • Martin
    Re: Are the walls thick enough to not see the flame s IR through them? ;-) The walls are 1/8 tileboard (highly reflective on one side). Pretty opaque to
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2012
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Re: Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)

      The walls are 1/8" tileboard (highly reflective on one side). Pretty opaque to IR.

      Re: While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?

      Yup, definitely not in the spirit of the competition as No sensor may see over any wall.

      The arena is currently setup at Mt. SAC from 5-9 pm on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for anyone who would like to run their robot in the arena in advance. Send me an email (profmason@...) if you are going to come out so I can give you directions and a parking pass. The students are busy on their robots, but love to see what other folks are working on.

      Cheers,
      mmason

      --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Benjamin" <techscientist@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Brown" <rbirac@> wrote:
      > > As a side project, just for the fun of it, I will make a line sensor with resolution enough for the hallway tile edges, half a millimeter of dirt. See if I can follow those and count intersections. Without video, but some clever physical arrangement of sensors, with near continuous scanning.
      > >
      > > Can’t wait til I see how you do this!
      >
      > First, the math to show it's feasible. Oh, just came up with a second design.
      >
      > In revisiting the laser range finder, low cost,
      >
      > http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H4594.html $130
      >
      > But my initial idea ... the math shows is not feasible, light travels too fast. So, looking at alternative geometries for multiple detectors, but the CMOS cam seems to be less labor intensive. The 'rapid' scanning, is not required. Just range finding, so a gigahertz CPU will not be needed. So far, all ideas are "too large" for a small bot. Can I get a crystal with an index of refraction of around 10,000? Hall of mirrors? Two beams of different frequency, and the phase difference gives the distance (ok, multiples most likely)?
      >
      > I tried ebay for low cost sonar sensors... I found none. Anyone have a thought? Maybe do a group purchase of 10+? I'd like 4, for two bots.
      >
      >
      > > I saw the Fullerton hallway was published online. Has anyone done a map of our new hallway? If not, then please join me before and after our next meeting, with your 25' tape measure, and 5-6 members could make quick work of the hall, dividing it between us.
      > >
      > > Check the attachment. I wouldn’t mind someone verifying my measurements though.
      >
      > This floor plan is Excellent! I've printed out several. One for the west doors, another for the east doors, and one for the floor tiles.
      >
      >
      > > Code is attached. It is in a dialect of Basic. I should cover sensing using a pointable sonar, motor speed control and steering for wall following.
      >
      > Thanks. Basic was my second computer language.
      >
      >
      > > Also attached a copy of the draft rules. Not very complete, but should give some hints. I’ll finish them as soon as the firefighting contest is over.
      >
      > I did not see those attached (2 files only, hall plans and basic). But I did print out the old rules.
      >
      >
      >
      > > I watched a candle contest and the bots all traveled straight lines. I thought how boring. But it was fun to watch. I found a small water pump. Is that allowed to blow out the candle with? lol
      > >
      > > My first firefighting robot (It won the Trinity college contest in 2001, senior division)
      >
      > Smile! I just, just read a web page about their yearly contest, including 2001.
      >
      >
      > > did go around corners with an arcing turn as fast as it could manage. That really improved its lap times, but is much more difficult to implement reliably in the little 18 inch wide halls of that contest. My entry for next week will do straight and pivot navigation.
      >
      > Oh. I've got two other ideas for this contest, but decided the time frame was too tight for my to make an entry. I've come up with some clever time savers.
      >
      > Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)
      >
      > While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?
      >
      > I saved my other two ideas. I might monetize both of them. ;-)
      >
      > Peter
      >
    • R
      Can you take a photo of it for us? Thomas Like robots? Visit: www.Robots-And-Androids.com ... Can you take a photo of it for us? Thomas Like robots? Visit:
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1, 2012
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Can you take a photo of it for us? 



        Thomas

        Like robots?

        Visit:


        On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:49 AM, "Martin" <profmason@...> wrote:

         

        Re: Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)

        The walls are 1/8" tileboard (highly reflective on one side). Pretty opaque to IR.

        Re: While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?

        Yup, definitely not in the spirit of the competition as No sensor may see over any wall.

        The arena is currently setup at Mt. SAC from 5-9 pm on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for anyone who would like to run their robot in the arena in advance. Send me an email (profmason@...) if you are going to come out so I can give you directions and a parking pass. The students are busy on their robots, but love to see what other folks are working on.

        Cheers,
        mmason

        --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Benjamin" <techscientist@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Brown" <rbirac@> wrote:
        > > As a side project, just for the fun of it, I will make a line sensor with resolution enough for the hallway tile edges, half a millimeter of dirt. See if I can follow those and count intersections. Without video, but some clever physical arrangement of sensors, with near continuous scanning.
        > >
        > > Can’t wait til I see how you do this!
        >
        > First, the math to show it's feasible. Oh, just came up with a second design.
        >
        > In revisiting the laser range finder, low cost,
        >
        > http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H4594.html $130
        >
        > But my initial idea ... the math shows is not feasible, light travels too fast. So, looking at alternative geometries for multiple detectors, but the CMOS cam seems to be less labor intensive. The 'rapid' scanning, is not required. Just range finding, so a gigahertz CPU will not be needed. So far, all ideas are "too large" for a small bot. Can I get a crystal with an index of refraction of around 10,000? Hall of mirrors? Two beams of different frequency, and the phase difference gives the distance (ok, multiples most likely)?
        >
        > I tried ebay for low cost sonar sensors... I found none. Anyone have a thought? Maybe do a group purchase of 10+? I'd like 4, for two bots.
        >
        >
        > > I saw the Fullerton hallway was published online. Has anyone done a map of our new hallway? If not, then please join me before and after our next meeting, with your 25' tape measure, and 5-6 members could make quick work of the hall, dividing it between us.
        > >
        > > Check the attachment. I wouldn’t mind someone verifying my measurements though.
        >
        > This floor plan is Excellent! I've printed out several. One for the west doors, another for the east doors, and one for the floor tiles.
        >
        >
        > > Code is attached. It is in a dialect of Basic. I should cover sensing using a pointable sonar, motor speed control and steering for wall following.
        >
        > Thanks. Basic was my second computer language.
        >
        >
        > > Also attached a copy of the draft rules. Not very complete, but should give some hints. I’ll finish them as soon as the firefighting contest is over.
        >
        > I did not see those attached (2 files only, hall plans and basic). But I did print out the old rules.
        >
        >
        >
        > > I watched a candle contest and the bots all traveled straight lines. I thought how boring. But it was fun to watch. I found a small water pump. Is that allowed to blow out the candle with? lol
        > >
        > > My first firefighting robot (It won the Trinity college contest in 2001, senior division)
        >
        > Smile! I just, just read a web page about their yearly contest, including 2001.
        >
        >
        > > did go around corners with an arcing turn as fast as it could manage. That really improved its lap times, but is much more difficult to implement reliably in the little 18 inch wide halls of that contest. My entry for next week will do straight and pivot navigation.
        >
        > Oh. I've got two other ideas for this contest, but decided the time frame was too tight for my to make an entry. I've come up with some clever time savers.
        >
        > Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)
        >
        > While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?
        >
        > I saved my other two ideas. I might monetize both of them. ;-)
        >
        > Peter
        >

      • Alex Brown
        Thomas (and other interested parties), I have uploaded 3 pictures of Prof. Mason’s firefighting arena to our mail list Pictures section in an album called
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2012
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Thomas (and other interested parties),
           
              I have uploaded 3 pictures of Prof. Mason’s firefighting arena to our mail list Pictures section in an album called “Firefighting Arena 2012”.
           
              Note that the Arena walls are constructed from 1/8 inch tempered hardboard which is a bright white color on one side and dark brown on the other.  Both sides seem to reflect IR adequately.
           
              The dimensions are much as Martin specified, being within an inch or so of those shown in the drawing in his set of rules.  The hallway running from top (home circle) to bottom has collinear walls with an inside width of about 48 cm. The horizontal hallway though, is does not have collinear walls.  The wall to the room in the lower right corner is offset about 12 cm lower than that of the room on the left.  And since the room in the upper right corner is specified as being 46 cm above the lower right room,  it’s lower wall also doesn’t line up with the wall on the upper left.    In other words, unless you have a very small robot, you can’t go straight across the intersection from left to right.
           
              Since the room drawing, for some reason, does not specify either the width of the horizontal hallway at the top or the vertical height of the upper right room,  Martin’s solution is to make the hallway the standard (about 48 cm) width and the room height about 51 cm.
           
          Enjoy,
          Alex
           
          From: R
          Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 1:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [RSSC-list] Re: Firefighting questions
           
           

          Can you take a photo of it for us?

           
           
          Thomas
           
          Like robots?
           
          Visit:
           

          On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:49 AM, "Martin" <profmason@...> wrote:

           

          Re: Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)

          The walls are 1/8" tileboard (highly reflective on one side). Pretty opaque to IR.

          Re: While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?

          Yup, definitely not in the spirit of the competition as No sensor may see over any wall.

          The arena is currently setup at Mt. SAC from 5-9 pm on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for anyone who would like to run their robot in the arena in advance. Send me an email (profmason@...) if you are going to come out so I can give you directions and a parking pass. The students are busy on their robots, but love to see what other folks are working on.

          Cheers,
          mmason

          --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Benjamin" <techscientist@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Brown" <rbirac@> wrote:
          > > As a side project, just for the fun of it, I will make a line sensor with resolution enough for the hallway tile edges, half a millimeter of dirt. See if I can follow those and count intersections. Without video, but some clever physical arrangement of sensors, with near continuous scanning.
          > >
          > > Can’t wait til I see how you do this!
          >
          > First, the math to show it's feasible. Oh, just came up with a second design.
          >
          > In revisiting the laser range finder, low cost,
          >
          > http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H4594.html $130
          >
          > But my initial idea ... the math shows is not feasible, light travels too fast. So, looking at alternative geometries for multiple detectors, but the CMOS cam seems to be less labor intensive. The 'rapid' scanning, is not required. Just range finding, so a gigahertz CPU will not be needed. So far, all ideas are "too large" for a small bot. Can I get a crystal with an index of refraction of around 10,000? Hall of mirrors? Two beams of different frequency, and the phase difference gives the distance (ok, multiples most likely)?
          >
          > I tried ebay for low cost sonar sensors... I found none. Anyone have a thought? Maybe do a group purchase of 10+? I'd like 4, for two bots.
          >
          >
          > > I saw the Fullerton hallway was published online. Has anyone done a map of our new hallway? If not, then please join me before and after our next meeting, with your 25' tape measure, and 5-6 members could make quick work of the hall, dividing it between us.
          > >
          > > Check the attachment. I wouldn’t mind someone verifying my measurements though.
          >
          > This floor plan is Excellent! I've printed out several. One for the west doors, another for the east doors, and one for the floor tiles.
          >
          >
          > > Code is attached. It is in a dialect of Basic. I should cover sensing using a pointable sonar, motor speed control and steering for wall following.
          >
          > Thanks. Basic was my second computer language.
          >
          >
          > > Also attached a copy of the draft rules. Not very complete, but should give some hints. I’ll finish them as soon as the firefighting contest is over.
          >
          > I did not see those attached (2 files only, hall plans and basic). But I did print out the old rules.
          >
          >
          >
          > > I watched a candle contest and the bots all traveled straight lines. I thought how boring. But it was fun to watch. I found a small water pump. Is that allowed to blow out the candle with? lol
          > >
          > > My first firefighting robot (It won the Trinity college contest in 2001, senior division)
          >
          > Smile! I just, just read a web page about their yearly contest, including 2001.
          >
          >
          > > did go around corners with an arcing turn as fast as it could manage. That really improved its lap times, but is much more difficult to implement reliably in the little 18 inch wide halls of that contest. My entry for next week will do straight and pivot navigation.
          >
          > Oh. I've got two other ideas for this contest, but decided the time frame was too tight for my to make an entry. I've come up with some clever time savers.
          >
          > Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)
          >
          > While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?
          >
          > I saved my other two ideas. I might monetize both of them. ;-)
          >
          > Peter
          >

        • Peter Benjamin
          ... I m going to find full rules, and see if any additions are needed, as IR sensor is what would be used, which is a must have to find the candle flame.
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In RSSC-list@yahoogroups.com, "Martin" <profmason@...> wrote:
            > Re: Are the walls "thick" enough to not see the flame's IR through them? ;-)
            >
            > The walls are 1/8" tileboard (highly reflective on one side). Pretty opaque to IR.

            I'm going to find "full" rules, and see if any additions are needed, as IR sensor is what would be used, which is a must have to find the candle flame. The same sensor could sweep walls, and it would not be visible. So, I think the rules might include one or both added rules, walls must be IR opaque and IR sensors or other sensor types can not be used for anything but anti wall collision purposes.


            > Re: While one can not peer over walls, what about detecting the heat plume of the candle? Oh, illegal, too?
            >
            > Yup, definitely not in the spirit of the competition as No sensor may see over any wall.

            I agree with your interpretation, but I find two wiggles to close.

            "See over" can be read as implying "into" a room, not "over" a room. That is, a sensor below the wall can not see "into" a room - fine. But the airspace over an adjacent room, in direct line of sight, of a sensor under the top of the wall, is not seeing "into" a room. Or potentially, over a wall, if it only examines the air space above the room it's in, and samples that air, and finds a plume "edge."

            I'm thinking the 'full' rules might need a clarification.


            > The arena is currently setup at Mt. SAC from 5-9 pm on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday for anyone who would like to run their robot in the arena in advance.

            Good news. It's 45 mile drive for me.

            I will be making walls for my use, as I do plan on making a fire fighting bot. I really like the idea. And will donate the walls to the club, if someone would store them. My robots will use wood, as I find it's easier to work with than metal, except for some brackets, which I hand make from computer card slot covers, as it bends easy, easy to drill, cut, file, shape, glue to, etc.

            Peter
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.