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Re: [RP-Rizal] Logical Fallacies Re: Overconfidence and/or Conspiracy killed Magellan

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  • Jack the Jut
    [CDV] Logical Fallacy #10 Two Wrongs Make a Right - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - You re right in this particular instance IF my
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
      [CDV]
      Logical Fallacy #10 Two Wrongs Make a Right
      - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      You're right in this particular instance IF my intent (reasoning)
      were along the lines of "because he did it first (a wrong), I too,
      can do it (another wrong) and am justified in doing it (right)".

      But that ain't my intent. Bobby asked, "must human beings walk
      the planet with meaningless labels stamped on their foreheads?"
      I answered by pointing out that, hey, what's this labeling business?
      That ain't my argument. It's yours, Bobby. Don't pin it on me.
      Having said that reminder, I went on another tack and likened the
      word christian to patriot when erroneous interpreted.

      So you see, my premises and conclusion were not what they appeared
      (to you) to be. Not fallacious at all. So, no cigar. <Oh, I see
      you've wiped out that mischievous grin from your face. Sorry, maybe
      next time you'd catch me yet.>


      jack
      p.s. - fat chance, hehehe
    • Jack the Jut
      [bobby] when i speak of the evils of patriotism i am actually referring to these following effects which over time has far outweighed any good effects you
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
        [bobby]
        when i speak of the evils of patriotism i am actually referring
        to these following effects which over time has far outweighed any
        good effects you speak about:
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        that seemed obvious to me, but since i don't really know what
        you mean, i took your words at face value. wouldn't do to have
        any unsophisticated young readers of the forum think we are
        against patriots. Look folks, RP-Rizal group is violently against
        heroes! <gasp> Consider that there may be such readers and
        it is prudent to be exact with definitions. that's why i had
        to post the way i did.


        Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots,
        each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the
        fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves
        better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings
        inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone
        living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt
        to impose his superiority upon all the others."
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        Technically, yours is a SPECIALIZED limited definition of patriotism.
        You and your distinguished company have added odious characteristics
        to your definition as corollaries, and that is okay. What is not
        okay is when the definition is used in such a way as to possibly
        confuse it with the general, neutral meaning. It's even worse if you
        attempt to erase the general meaning of patriotism and redefine it
        according to your meaning. If that happens, the rest of the world
        would have to invent another word to mean our neutral definition of
        patriotism. And who are you to preempt us, the majority users, of
        this simple useful word? Help! Verbokleptos on the loose!


        who were the SOBs - the americans who waged war or the canadians who
        worked within the system? what about between rizal and bonifacio?
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        you see?! this happens when a definition is used in one sense and
        another is used in another sense. i'd said " "Good patriots would NOT
        necessarily want bad things to happen to other tribes/nations/states
        like calamities, disease, poverty, war, genocide, etc. Those who do are
        SOBs who merely happen to also have patriotic sentiments." I'm using
        patriot in sense1 and you in sense2 but you "seem" not to understand
        the difference and blithely expound on sense2. that's in effect a
        strawman tactic even if unintended.


        two persons found themselves surrounded by a dozen human beings with
        life-threatening physical injuries, as in a small plane crash. one
        helped the ones needing immediate attention first. the other walked
        around asking who are filipinos and helped them. who is the patriot
        and who is the traitor in your book?
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        one is a patriot to the human race, the other a patriot to his country.
        as for traitor, is there any treason here? the first one was just using
        common sense or good judgment. the other... who knows? maybe he was
        afraid to be embarassed hindi kasi siya marunong mag-inggles e. hehehe.


        jack
      • ALvaRO
        bobby, Dr. Samuel Johnson, like our Dr. Jose Rizal, truly advocated patriotism. + Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
          bobby,

          Dr. Samuel Johnson, like our Dr. Jose Rizal, truly
          advocated patriotism.

          + Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson
          suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an
          apophtegm, at which many will start: " PATRIOTISM IS
          THE LAST REFUGE OF A SCOUNDREL." But let it be
          considered that he did not mean a real and generous
          love of our country, but that PRETENDED PATRIOTISM
          which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a
          cloak of self- interest.+[caps mine]

          -Dr. Johnson, quoted in Boswell's life of Johnson

          Excerpt from The Patriot by Samuel Johnson addressed
          to the electors of Great Britain in 1774 :

          +It ought to be deeply impressed on the minds of all
          who have voices in this national deliberation, that no
          man can deserve a seat in parliament, who is not a
          patriot. No other man will protect our rights: no
          other man can merit our confidence.

          A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated
          by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as
          an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope
          nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers
          every thing to the common interest.+

          http://www.samueljohnson.com/thepatriot.html

          AlvaRO










          --- bobby manasan <bobmanasan@...> wrote:

          > jack,
          >
          > when i speak of the evils of patriotism i am
          > actually referring to
          > these following effects which over time has far
          > outweighed any good
          > effects you speak about:
          >
          > "What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the
          > last resort of
          > scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the
          > greatest anti-patriot
          > of our times, defines patriotism as the principle
          > that will justify
          > the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that
          > requires better
          > equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the
          > making of such
          > necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses;
          > a trade that
          > guarantees better returns and greater glory than
          > that of the average
          > workingman.
          >
          > Gustave Hervé, another great anti-patriot, justly
          > calls patriotism a
          > superstition--one far more injurious, brutal, and
          > inhumane than
          > religion. The superstition of religion originated in
          > man's inability
          > to explain natural phenomena. That is, when
          > primitive man heard
          > thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account
          > for either, and
          > therefore concluded that back of them must be a
          > force greater than
          > himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in
          > the rain, and in
          > the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on
          > the other hand,
          > is a superstition artificially created and
          > maintained through a
          > network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that
          > robs man of his
          > self-respect and dignity, and increases his
          > arrogance and conceit.
          >
          > Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the
          > essentials of
          > patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes
          > that our globe is
          > divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an
          > iron gate. Those
          > who have had the fortune of being born on some
          > particular spot,
          > consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more
          > intelligent than
          > the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is,
          > therefore, the
          > duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to
          > fight, kill, and die
          > in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all
          > the others."
          >
          http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/patriotism
          > .html
          >
          > "Patriotism implies that nationals - members of a
          > nation - owe a
          > greater allegiance to fellow nationals than to
          > foreigners. This
          > selectivity is the most ethically controversial
          > aspect of patriotism.
          > Many people have promoted the alternative concept of
          > a universal
          > human community, as expressed for instance in the
          > idealistic
          > phrase "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" ("all people
          > become brothers")
          > of the Ode to Joy, part of Beethoven's Ninth
          > Symphony. The 'Ode to
          > Joy' is the official anthem of the European Union
          > and the phrase is
          > regarded with deep distrust by many nationalists in
          > Europe.
          >
          > All nation-states favour their own nationals above
          > non-nationals.
          > Immigration law is based on that principle: merely
          > by accident of
          > birth in a country, some people have an automatic
          > entitlement to live
          > in it, but foreigners do not. Patriotism seems to
          > ethically condone
          > these distinctions. For this reason it has often
          > been compared to
          > racism, most notably in a 2002 paper by Paul
          > Gompert, Patriotism is
          > like racism.
          >
          > In his influential article "Is patriotism a virtue?"
          > (1984), the
          > philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre notes that most
          > contemporary
          > conceptions of morality insist on a kind of
          > impartial blindness to
          > accidental traits like national origin in the just
          > treatment of our
          > fellow humans - and therefore, that patriotism is
          > inevitably not
          > moral under these conceptions."
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
          >
          > the reason many filipinos would like to replace dr.
          > jose rizal as the
          > national hero is that he was not "patriotic" enough,
          > as his statues
          > show him holding books. "patriotic" heroes are like
          > bonifacio and
          > lapulapu who are shown waving guns or knives.
          >
          > "have you not heard of patriotic "doves" or
          > conscientious objectors
          > or pacifists?"
          >
          > no i have not. patriotic "hawks" collectively brand
          > those people as
          > traitors and the peace sign as the footprint of the
          > american chicken.
          >
          > bobby
          >
          > --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, Jack the Jut
          > <jackthejut@g...> wrote:
          > >
          > > [bobby]
          > > must human beings walk the planet with meaningless
          > > labels stamped on their foreheads?
          > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > - - - - -
          > > of course not. you'll have a fight on your hands
          > if you insist on
          > > violating cosmetic and human rights. hyuk hyuk
          > hyuk.
          > >
          > > please remember that you STARTED this "labelling"
          > business in
          > > this forum in the first place when you
          > indiscriminately lumped both
          > > the good and bad guys who claim patriotic
          > sentiments and slammed
          > > them for being evil and called tagged these people
          > "patriots". It
          > is
          > > like citing evil people who happen to be
          > christians, lumping them to
          > > good ones who are also christians and then in
          > effect saying that
          > > it is not good to be called christian because
          > obviously christians
          > are
          > > bad people.
          > >
          > >
          > > canadians founded their country without killing
          > the
          > > british soldiers. was that cowardice on their
          > part?
          > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > - - - - -
          > > no. it is called prudence or common sense. why
          > kill when you don't
          > > have to. you seem to think that violence,
          > bravery, aggression, etc.
          > > are integral to patriotism. have you not heard
          > of
          > patriotic "doves" or
          > > conscientious objectors or pacifists? surely you
          > have heard of jose
          > > rizal who is labelled a patriot. would you deny
          > rizal was a
          > patriot?
          > >
          > > as for patriotic canadians (both whites AND
          > indians), they
          > outmaneuvered
          > > and DEFEATED the invading yankees in the "war of
          > 1812". because
          > the
          > > brits agreed to stop impressing american seamen
          > and the u.s.a. won
          > the
          > > battle of new orleans (after the war formally
          > ended), americans
          > think they
          > > won that war. i call it a draw. americans lost
          > that "canadian
          > war". the
          > > canadians, which then included a significant
          > number of american
          > settlers
          > > who settled near the u.s. border, got a good dose
          > of patriotism and
          > > defended their homes. earlier, canadian
          > settlers from the u.s.
          > were
          > > positively
          > > attracted to the prospct of joining the american
          > union and there
          > was a good
          > > possibility that ultimately canada would be
          > incorporated into the
          > > u.s.a. but
          > > he u.s. invasion solidified canadians into loyal
          > british subjects.
          > so
          > > you see,
          > > there was no need for them to kill british
          > soldiers when they later
          > > clamored
          > > for independence. these canuck patriots can fight
          > and are no
          > cowards.
          > >
          > > jack
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • bobby manasan
          alvaro, granted that dr. johnson is a patriot, did he gloat or feel ashamed at the wanton imperialism of the british empire? didn t they, like spain, own
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
            alvaro,

            granted that dr. johnson is a patriot, did he gloat or feel ashamed
            at the wanton imperialism of the british empire? didn't they, like
            spain, own boundless global real estate before the sun set on their
            empire? how would he have felt about that?

            "... but that PRETENDED PATRIOTISM which so many, in all ages and
            countries, have made a cloak of self-interest."

            has anyone ever wondered what the filipinos would have been able to
            accomplish had they OWNED the US nuclear arsenal to back up their
            love of country? who do you think would own the spratlys and sabah
            today, maybe indonesia, malaysia and singapore thrown in too while
            the picking is good - why not? who can stop the filipino leaders if
            they were the superpower of the world instead of the USA?

            love of country = patriotism = self-interest = imperialism

            when a patriot feels threatened by his enemies and defeats them to
            defend his people and takes over their lands and keeps doing it over
            and over until he owns a huge piece of global real estate he becomes
            an imperialist to the peoples he conquered. sour grapes, i'd say.

            let's erase the meaningless lines drawn on the earth's surface by
            patriots of all colors and stripes. all human beings own the whole
            planet so let them be free to enjoy it as they want. freedom now!

            bobby

            --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, ALvaRO <lazir_96@y...> wrote:
            >
            > bobby,
            >
            > Dr. Samuel Johnson, like our Dr. Jose Rizal, truly
            > advocated patriotism.
            >
            > + Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson
            > suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an
            > apophtegm, at which many will start: " PATRIOTISM IS
            > THE LAST REFUGE OF A SCOUNDREL." But let it be
            > considered that he did not mean a real and generous
            > love of our country, but that PRETENDED PATRIOTISM
            > which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a
            > cloak of self- interest.+[caps mine]
            >
            > -Dr. Johnson, quoted in Boswell's life of Johnson
            >
            > Excerpt from The Patriot by Samuel Johnson addressed
            > to the electors of Great Britain in 1774 :
            >
            > +It ought to be deeply impressed on the minds of all
            > who have voices in this national deliberation, that no
            > man can deserve a seat in parliament, who is not a
            > patriot. No other man will protect our rights: no
            > other man can merit our confidence.
            >
            > A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated
            > by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as
            > an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope
            > nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers
            > every thing to the common interest.+
            >
            > http://www.samueljohnson.com/thepatriot.html
            >
            > AlvaRO
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- bobby manasan <bobmanasan@h...> wrote:
            >
            > > jack,
            > >
            > > when i speak of the evils of patriotism i am
            > > actually referring to
            > > these following effects which over time has far
            > > outweighed any good
            > > effects you speak about:
            > >
            > > "What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the
            > > last resort of
            > > scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the
            > > greatest anti-patriot
            > > of our times, defines patriotism as the principle
            > > that will justify
            > > the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that
            > > requires better
            > > equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the
            > > making of such
            > > necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses;
            > > a trade that
            > > guarantees better returns and greater glory than
            > > that of the average
            > > workingman.
            > >
            > > Gustave Hervé, another great anti-patriot, justly
            > > calls patriotism a
            > > superstition--one far more injurious, brutal, and
            > > inhumane than
            > > religion. The superstition of religion originated in
            > > man's inability
            > > to explain natural phenomena. That is, when
            > > primitive man heard
            > > thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account
            > > for either, and
            > > therefore concluded that back of them must be a
            > > force greater than
            > > himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in
            > > the rain, and in
            > > the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on
            > > the other hand,
            > > is a superstition artificially created and
            > > maintained through a
            > > network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that
            > > robs man of his
            > > self-respect and dignity, and increases his
            > > arrogance and conceit.
            > >
            > > Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the
            > > essentials of
            > > patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes
            > > that our globe is
            > > divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an
            > > iron gate. Those
            > > who have had the fortune of being born on some
            > > particular spot,
            > > consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more
            > > intelligent than
            > > the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is,
            > > therefore, the
            > > duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to
            > > fight, kill, and die
            > > in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all
            > > the others."
            > >
            >
            http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/patriotism
            > > .html
            > >
            > > "Patriotism implies that nationals - members of a
            > > nation - owe a
            > > greater allegiance to fellow nationals than to
            > > foreigners. This
            > > selectivity is the most ethically controversial
            > > aspect of patriotism.
            > > Many people have promoted the alternative concept of
            > > a universal
            > > human community, as expressed for instance in the
            > > idealistic
            > > phrase "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" ("all people
            > > become brothers")
            > > of the Ode to Joy, part of Beethoven's Ninth
            > > Symphony. The 'Ode to
            > > Joy' is the official anthem of the European Union
            > > and the phrase is
            > > regarded with deep distrust by many nationalists in
            > > Europe.
            > >
            > > All nation-states favour their own nationals above
            > > non-nationals.
            > > Immigration law is based on that principle: merely
            > > by accident of
            > > birth in a country, some people have an automatic
            > > entitlement to live
            > > in it, but foreigners do not. Patriotism seems to
            > > ethically condone
            > > these distinctions. For this reason it has often
            > > been compared to
            > > racism, most notably in a 2002 paper by Paul
            > > Gompert, Patriotism is
            > > like racism.
            > >
            > > In his influential article "Is patriotism a virtue?"
            > > (1984), the
            > > philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre notes that most
            > > contemporary
            > > conceptions of morality insist on a kind of
            > > impartial blindness to
            > > accidental traits like national origin in the just
            > > treatment of our
            > > fellow humans - and therefore, that patriotism is
            > > inevitably not
            > > moral under these conceptions."
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
            > >
            > > the reason many filipinos would like to replace dr.
            > > jose rizal as the
            > > national hero is that he was not "patriotic" enough,
            > > as his statues
            > > show him holding books. "patriotic" heroes are like
            > > bonifacio and
            > > lapulapu who are shown waving guns or knives.
            > >
            > > "have you not heard of patriotic "doves" or
            > > conscientious objectors
            > > or pacifists?"
            > >
            > > no i have not. patriotic "hawks" collectively brand
            > > those people as
            > > traitors and the peace sign as the footprint of the
            > > american chicken.
            > >
            > > bobby
            > >
            > > --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, Jack the Jut
            > > <jackthejut@g...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > [bobby]
            > > > must human beings walk the planet with meaningless
            > > > labels stamped on their foreheads?
            > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > - - - - -
            > > > of course not. you'll have a fight on your hands
            > > if you insist on
            > > > violating cosmetic and human rights. hyuk hyuk
            > > hyuk.
            > > >
            > > > please remember that you STARTED this "labelling"
            > > business in
            > > > this forum in the first place when you
            > > indiscriminately lumped both
            > > > the good and bad guys who claim patriotic
            > > sentiments and slammed
            > > > them for being evil and called tagged these people
            > > "patriots". It
            > > is
            > > > like citing evil people who happen to be
            > > christians, lumping them to
            > > > good ones who are also christians and then in
            > > effect saying that
            > > > it is not good to be called christian because
            > > obviously christians
            > > are
            > > > bad people.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > canadians founded their country without killing
            > > the
            > > > british soldiers. was that cowardice on their
            > > part?
            > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > - - - - -
            > > > no. it is called prudence or common sense. why
            > > kill when you don't
            > > > have to. you seem to think that violence,
            > > bravery, aggression, etc.
            > > > are integral to patriotism. have you not heard
            > > of
            > > patriotic "doves" or
            > > > conscientious objectors or pacifists? surely you
            > > have heard of jose
            > > > rizal who is labelled a patriot. would you deny
            > > rizal was a
            > > patriot?
            > > >
            > > > as for patriotic canadians (both whites AND
            > > indians), they
            > > outmaneuvered
            > > > and DEFEATED the invading yankees in the "war of
            > > 1812". because
            > > the
            > > > brits agreed to stop impressing american seamen
            > > and the u.s.a. won
            > > the
            > > > battle of new orleans (after the war formally
            > > ended), americans
            > > think they
            > > > won that war. i call it a draw. americans lost
            > > that "canadian
            > > war". the
            > > > canadians, which then included a significant
            > > number of american
            > > settlers
            > > > who settled near the u.s. border, got a good dose
            > > of patriotism and
            > > > defended their homes. earlier, canadian
            > > settlers from the u.s.
            > > were
            > > > positively
            > > > attracted to the prospct of joining the american
            > > union and there
            > > was a good
            > > > possibility that ultimately canada would be
            > > incorporated into the
            > > > u.s.a. but
            > > > he u.s. invasion solidified canadians into loyal
            > > british subjects.
            > > so
            > > > you see,
            > > > there was no need for them to kill british
            > > soldiers when they later
            > > > clamored
            > > > for independence. these canuck patriots can fight
            > > and are no
            > > cowards.
            > > >
            > > > jack
            > > >
          • CDV
            [bobby] ***has anyone ever wondered what the filipinos would have been able to accomplish had they OWNED the US nuclear arsenal to back up their love of
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
              [bobby] ***has anyone ever wondered what the filipinos would have been
              able to
              accomplish had they OWNED the US nuclear arsenal to back up their
              love of country?***

              We probably would blow ourselves up accidentally and pin the blame on
              someone other than ourselves.

              CDV

              --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, "bobby manasan" <bobmanasan@h...> wrote:
              >
              > alvaro,
              >
              > granted that dr. johnson is a patriot, did he gloat or feel ashamed
              > at the wanton imperialism of the british empire? didn't they, like
              > spain, own boundless global real estate before the sun set on their
              > empire? how would he have felt about that?
              >
              > "... but that PRETENDED PATRIOTISM which so many, in all ages and
              > countries, have made a cloak of self-interest."
              >
              > has anyone ever wondered what the filipinos would have been able to
              > accomplish had they OWNED the US nuclear arsenal to back up their
              > love of country? who do you think would own the spratlys and sabah
              > today, maybe indonesia, malaysia and singapore thrown in too while
              > the picking is good - why not? who can stop the filipino leaders if
              > they were the superpower of the world instead of the USA?
              >
              > love of country = patriotism = self-interest = imperialism
              >
              > when a patriot feels threatened by his enemies and defeats them to
              > defend his people and takes over their lands and keeps doing it over
              > and over until he owns a huge piece of global real estate he becomes
              > an imperialist to the peoples he conquered. sour grapes, i'd say.
              >
              > let's erase the meaningless lines drawn on the earth's surface by
              > patriots of all colors and stripes. all human beings own the whole
              > planet so let them be free to enjoy it as they want. freedom now!
              >
              > bobby
              >
              > --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, ALvaRO <lazir_96@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > bobby,
              > >
              > > Dr. Samuel Johnson, like our Dr. Jose Rizal, truly
              > > advocated patriotism.
              > >
              > > + Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson
              > > suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an
              > > apophtegm, at which many will start: " PATRIOTISM IS
              > > THE LAST REFUGE OF A SCOUNDREL." But let it be
              > > considered that he did not mean a real and generous
              > > love of our country, but that PRETENDED PATRIOTISM
              > > which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a
              > > cloak of self- interest.+[caps mine]
              > >
              > > -Dr. Johnson, quoted in Boswell's life of Johnson
              > >
              > > Excerpt from The Patriot by Samuel Johnson addressed
              > > to the electors of Great Britain in 1774 :
              > >
              > > +It ought to be deeply impressed on the minds of all
              > > who have voices in this national deliberation, that no
              > > man can deserve a seat in parliament, who is not a
              > > patriot. No other man will protect our rights: no
              > > other man can merit our confidence.
              > >
              > > A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated
              > > by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as
              > > an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope
              > > nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers
              > > every thing to the common interest.+
              > >
              > > http://www.samueljohnson.com/thepatriot.html
              > >
              > > AlvaRO
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- bobby manasan <bobmanasan@h...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > jack,
              > > >
              > > > when i speak of the evils of patriotism i am
              > > > actually referring to
              > > > these following effects which over time has far
              > > > outweighed any good
              > > > effects you speak about:
              > > >
              > > > "What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the
              > > > last resort of
              > > > scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the
              > > > greatest anti-patriot
              > > > of our times, defines patriotism as the principle
              > > > that will justify
              > > > the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that
              > > > requires better
              > > > equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the
              > > > making of such
              > > > necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses;
              > > > a trade that
              > > > guarantees better returns and greater glory than
              > > > that of the average
              > > > workingman.
              > > >
              > > > Gustave Hervé, another great anti-patriot, justly
              > > > calls patriotism a
              > > > superstition--one far more injurious, brutal, and
              > > > inhumane than
              > > > religion. The superstition of religion originated in
              > > > man's inability
              > > > to explain natural phenomena. That is, when
              > > > primitive man heard
              > > > thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account
              > > > for either, and
              > > > therefore concluded that back of them must be a
              > > > force greater than
              > > > himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in
              > > > the rain, and in
              > > > the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on
              > > > the other hand,
              > > > is a superstition artificially created and
              > > > maintained through a
              > > > network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that
              > > > robs man of his
              > > > self-respect and dignity, and increases his
              > > > arrogance and conceit.
              > > >
              > > > Indeed, conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the
              > > > essentials of
              > > > patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes
              > > > that our globe is
              > > > divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an
              > > > iron gate. Those
              > > > who have had the fortune of being born on some
              > > > particular spot,
              > > > consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more
              > > > intelligent than
              > > > the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is,
              > > > therefore, the
              > > > duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to
              > > > fight, kill, and die
              > > > in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all
              > > > the others."
              > > >
              > >
              > http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/aando/patriotism
              > > > .html
              > > >
              > > > "Patriotism implies that nationals - members of a
              > > > nation - owe a
              > > > greater allegiance to fellow nationals than to
              > > > foreigners. This
              > > > selectivity is the most ethically controversial
              > > > aspect of patriotism.
              > > > Many people have promoted the alternative concept of
              > > > a universal
              > > > human community, as expressed for instance in the
              > > > idealistic
              > > > phrase "Alle Menschen werden Brüder" ("all people
              > > > become brothers")
              > > > of the Ode to Joy, part of Beethoven's Ninth
              > > > Symphony. The 'Ode to
              > > > Joy' is the official anthem of the European Union
              > > > and the phrase is
              > > > regarded with deep distrust by many nationalists in
              > > > Europe.
              > > >
              > > > All nation-states favour their own nationals above
              > > > non-nationals.
              > > > Immigration law is based on that principle: merely
              > > > by accident of
              > > > birth in a country, some people have an automatic
              > > > entitlement to live
              > > > in it, but foreigners do not. Patriotism seems to
              > > > ethically condone
              > > > these distinctions. For this reason it has often
              > > > been compared to
              > > > racism, most notably in a 2002 paper by Paul
              > > > Gompert, Patriotism is
              > > > like racism.
              > > >
              > > > In his influential article "Is patriotism a virtue?"
              > > > (1984), the
              > > > philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre notes that most
              > > > contemporary
              > > > conceptions of morality insist on a kind of
              > > > impartial blindness to
              > > > accidental traits like national origin in the just
              > > > treatment of our
              > > > fellow humans - and therefore, that patriotism is
              > > > inevitably not
              > > > moral under these conceptions."
              > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
              > > >
              > > > the reason many filipinos would like to replace dr.
              > > > jose rizal as the
              > > > national hero is that he was not "patriotic" enough,
              > > > as his statues
              > > > show him holding books. "patriotic" heroes are like
              > > > bonifacio and
              > > > lapulapu who are shown waving guns or knives.
              > > >
              > > > "have you not heard of patriotic "doves" or
              > > > conscientious objectors
              > > > or pacifists?"
              > > >
              > > > no i have not. patriotic "hawks" collectively brand
              > > > those people as
              > > > traitors and the peace sign as the footprint of the
              > > > american chicken.
              > > >
              > > > bobby
              > > >
              > > > --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, Jack the Jut
              > > > <jackthejut@g...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > [bobby]
              > > > > must human beings walk the planet with meaningless
              > > > > labels stamped on their foreheads?
              > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > > > - - - - -
              > > > > of course not. you'll have a fight on your hands
              > > > if you insist on
              > > > > violating cosmetic and human rights. hyuk hyuk
              > > > hyuk.
              > > > >
              > > > > please remember that you STARTED this "labelling"
              > > > business in
              > > > > this forum in the first place when you
              > > > indiscriminately lumped both
              > > > > the good and bad guys who claim patriotic
              > > > sentiments and slammed
              > > > > them for being evil and called tagged these people
              > > > "patriots". It
              > > > is
              > > > > like citing evil people who happen to be
              > > > christians, lumping them to
              > > > > good ones who are also christians and then in
              > > > effect saying that
              > > > > it is not good to be called christian because
              > > > obviously christians
              > > > are
              > > > > bad people.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > canadians founded their country without killing
              > > > the
              > > > > british soldiers. was that cowardice on their
              > > > part?
              > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > > > - - - - -
              > > > > no. it is called prudence or common sense. why
              > > > kill when you don't
              > > > > have to. you seem to think that violence,
              > > > bravery, aggression, etc.
              > > > > are integral to patriotism. have you not heard
              > > > of
              > > > patriotic "doves" or
              > > > > conscientious objectors or pacifists? surely you
              > > > have heard of jose
              > > > > rizal who is labelled a patriot. would you deny
              > > > rizal was a
              > > > patriot?
              > > > >
              > > > > as for patriotic canadians (both whites AND
              > > > indians), they
              > > > outmaneuvered
              > > > > and DEFEATED the invading yankees in the "war of
              > > > 1812". because
              > > > the
              > > > > brits agreed to stop impressing american seamen
              > > > and the u.s.a. won
              > > > the
              > > > > battle of new orleans (after the war formally
              > > > ended), americans
              > > > think they
              > > > > won that war. i call it a draw. americans lost
              > > > that "canadian
              > > > war". the
              > > > > canadians, which then included a significant
              > > > number of american
              > > > settlers
              > > > > who settled near the u.s. border, got a good dose
              > > > of patriotism and
              > > > > defended their homes. earlier, canadian
              > > > settlers from the u.s.
              > > > were
              > > > > positively
              > > > > attracted to the prospct of joining the american
              > > > union and there
              > > > was a good
              > > > > possibility that ultimately canada would be
              > > > incorporated into the
              > > > > u.s.a. but
              > > > > he u.s. invasion solidified canadians into loyal
              > > > british subjects.
              > > > so
              > > > > you see,
              > > > > there was no need for them to kill british
              > > > soldiers when they later
              > > > > clamored
              > > > > for independence. these canuck patriots can fight
              > > > and are no
              > > > cowards.
              > > > >
              > > > > jack
              > > > >
              >
            • Jack the Jut
              [bobby] all human beings own the whole planet so let them be free to enjoy it as they want. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - goody!
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
                [bobby]
                all human beings own the whole planet so let
                them be free to enjoy it as they want.

                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                goody! i like that argument. hey, you could use that theme
                as a political platform. return to the philippines where you
                would easily win elections in the major cities.

                squatters of the philippines, unite!

                later as a "citizen of the world" you could easily win the favela
                votes in brazil. then on to mexico. squatters of the world, unite!!!

                you'll win a landslide in nauru where they are literally running out
                of land, also in low-elevation islands in the pacific and oceania.
                practically in everyplace where there are poor people (i.e., landles).
                no need for wars of territorial aggression.

                jack
                p.s. hyuk hyuk hyuk. sorry bob, i couldn't help it. :-D
              • CDV
                Yeah Jack, I had learned that freedom does not mean license or do anything you want. CDV
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 1, 2005
                  Yeah Jack,

                  I had learned that freedom does not mean license or "do anything you
                  want."

                  CDV

                  --- In RP-Rizal@yahoogroups.com, Jack the Jut <jackthejut@g...> wrote:
                  >
                  > [bobby]
                  > all human beings own the whole planet so let
                  > them be free to enjoy it as they want.
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > goody! i like that argument. hey, you could use that theme
                  > as a political platform. return to the philippines where you
                  > would easily win elections in the major cities.
                  >
                  > squatters of the philippines, unite!
                  >
                  > later as a "citizen of the world" you could easily win the favela
                  > votes in brazil. then on to mexico. squatters of the world, unite!!!
                  >
                  > you'll win a landslide in nauru where they are literally running out
                  > of land, also in low-elevation islands in the pacific and oceania.
                  > practically in everyplace where there are poor people (i.e., landles).
                  > no need for wars of territorial aggression.
                  >
                  > jack
                  > p.s. hyuk hyuk hyuk. sorry bob, i couldn't help it. :-D
                  >
                • ALvaRO
                  ... imperialism I respect your definition of patriotism. My equation: true patriotism = selflessness = goodwill = love of country pretended patriotism =
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 2, 2005
                    > love of country = patriotism = self-interest =
                    imperialism

                    I respect your definition of patriotism.

                    My equation:
                    true patriotism = selflessness = goodwill = love of
                    country
                    pretended patriotism = selfishness = greed =
                    imperialism

                    > when a patriot feels threatened by his enemies and
                    > defeats them to
                    > defend his people and takes over their lands and
                    > keeps doing it over
                    > and over until he owns a huge piece of global real
                    > estate he becomes
                    > an imperialist to the peoples he conquered. sour
                    > grapes, i'd say.

                    Don't be fooled by pretended patriotism.

                    " It is the leaders of the country who determine
                    policy, and
                    it is always a simple matter to drag the people along,
                    whether
                    it is a democracy, or fascist dictatorship, or a
                    parliament, or
                    communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
                    can always
                    be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is
                    easy, all you
                    have to do is to tell them they are being attacked,
                    and denounce
                    the pacifist for LACK OF PATRIOTISM and exposing the
                    country to
                    greater danger. It works the same in any
                    country."[caps mine]

                    - Hermann Goering

                    > all human beings own the whole planet so let them
                    be free to enjoy it as they want. freedom now!

                    I love to hear it from you bob. Peace is more
                    important than a piece of land.

                    AlvaRO

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