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RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

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  • Adam J Bernay
    John, there s a term for the logical fallacy you re using, it s called a false or forced dichotomy. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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      John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
      false or forced dichotomy.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of John Pankratz
      Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

      Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
      feel good.


      Adam J Bernay wrote:

      >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
      this,
      >John...
      >
      >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
      >comment insulting.
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
      breath of those things on which we do not vote.
      ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





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    • Adam J Bernay
      As would I (and I am religious). But that s not what John SAID. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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        As would I (and I am religious). But that's not what John SAID.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Dave Nalle
        Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:54 PM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

        I'm an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is
        not necessarily a good thing, I'd still rather kids get a religious
        education than one based in statist socialism from a government
        school.

        Dave
        --

        Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
        http://www.elitistpig.com




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      • John Pankratz
        Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but for you to call these
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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          Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
          everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
          for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
          children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
          religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
          Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
          the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a modernizing
          Mexico.

          I am not a pentecostal, and yet I see what these pastors in Mexico doing
          as morally and socially uplifting and bringing hope to the otherwise
          hopeless. It has a parallel in the 18th century genesis of the Sunday
          School.

          http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-raikes.htm

          Those English schools started by evangelical reformers among the
          illiterate child laborers of the early industrial revolution were begun
          to teach basic education, the 3 Rs, along with Christian teaching, on
          the only day they weren't working 12 hours a day in the factories:
          Sunday. These children had been abandoned by the state, and their only
          hope for the future was the only opportunity they had from the only ones
          interested in helping them: the originators of the Sunday School. It was
          an all-day affair, and not in any way like the modern day hour a Sunday
          coloring and Bible story session found in modern churches.

          However, I did NOT mean to give the impression that this one project is
          the "army". It is only one small front in the battle. Here is another
          manifestation of the army.

          http://www.endofthespear.com/

          The film is coming out on January 20. I suggest you would be enlightened
          if you would view END OF THE SPEAR. You will see how God's army does
          indeed win hearts and minds through sacrifice.

          I truly do believe that God is mightier than any army. I am not ashamed
          of the Gospel. If you are not one who believes in God or in Christ, then
          maybe you could at least agree that the power of ideas and example is
          greater than that of pure force.

          That said, and Adam take note: I am not saying that there is not a
          necessary place for the military. There are some who will not respond to
          the Message of Peace and who must be resisted with force. This thing
          about guns changing hearts and minds is not what they are about. They
          are about killing people and breaking things, and more than often that
          only incites hate and resistance rather than changing hearts.
          Unfortunately is is sometimes necessary.

          The problem we face today with a standing army is that when one joins he
          surrenders his conscience and his will to unknown future decisions of
          political leaders to go to war. George Washington's army knew what they
          were fighting for.

          ----------------------


          Douglas Lorenz wrote:

          > I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support
          > for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was
          > actually serious… I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution
          > to the Mexican government’s problems. Even coming from a source as
          > horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as
          > nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.
          > For example:
          >
          > Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible
          > study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for
          > their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children,"
          > said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another
          > Christian school in Juarez. "They're learning Bible stories, learning
          > to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."
          >
          > Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more
          > important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than
          > learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly
          > that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able
          > to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border
          > into the U.S.
          >
          > *Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn’t there a YahooGroup
          > somewhere for nutty evangelicals? *
          >
          > Doug
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



          --
          Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
          breath of those things on which we do not vote.
          ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
        • John Pankratz
          What is the unstated third choice? Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to you? ... -- Freedom is not measured by the ability
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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            What is the unstated third choice?
            Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
            you?



            Adam J Bernay wrote:

            >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
            >false or forced dichotomy.
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
            >Behalf Of John Pankratz
            >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
            >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
            >
            >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
            >feel good.
            >
            >
            >Adam J Bernay wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
            >>
            >>
            >this,
            >
            >
            >>John...
            >>
            >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
            >>comment insulting.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
            ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
          • greenspj
            Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere. This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group. Thanks! ... modernizing
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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              Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.

              This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.

              Thanks!


              --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, John Pankratz <pankratz@r...> wrote:
              >
              > Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
              > everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
              > for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
              > children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
              > religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
              > Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
              > the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a
              modernizing
              > Mexico.
              >
            • John Pankratz
              I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages and didn t see much discussion of any meaningful action. On the other hand, my
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages
                and didn't see much discussion of any meaningful action.

                On the other hand, my suggestion that we help voluntary action to
                educate and help the downtrodden rather than shoot at them is greeted by
                hoots and derision.

                The US Gov. is shooting down missionaries over the Amazon, as part of
                its "war on drugs",

                http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/apr2001/peru-a24_prn.shtml

                Note: I picked this site out of many to demonstrate that the
                incompetence and wrong headedness of the US Government is contributing
                to the fuel for the world socialist movement. At the same time people
                complain of the gathering strength of the socialists.

                I say, help the Christian missionaries whether you agree with them or
                not. Its a whole lot better than funding war.
                And if you see that as a false dichotomy, please tell me the other
                alternatives.

                By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                "patriot" act?

                John P.
                ......................................................................................

                greenspj wrote:

                >Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.
                >
                >This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.
                >
                >Thanks!
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
              • Steve Redlich
                ... http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358 Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                  On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, John Pankratz wrote:

                  > By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                  > "patriot" act?

                  http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358

                  Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture Motion.

                  Steve
                • Adam J Bernay
                  One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons. ... From:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                    One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without
                    advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of John Pankratz
                    Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 1:45 PM
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

                    What is the unstated third choice?
                    Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
                    you?



                    Adam J Bernay wrote:

                    >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                    >false or forced dichotomy.
                    >
                    >-----Original Message-----
                    >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                    >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                    >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                    >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                    >
                    >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                    >feel good.
                    >
                    >
                    >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                    >>
                    >>
                    >this,
                    >
                    >
                    >>John...
                    >>
                    >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                    this
                    >>comment insulting.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                    breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                    ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • michael franks
                    ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power of God and Him to be who He says He
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 17, 2005
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                      ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug

                      once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power
                      of God and Him to be who He says He is.........and those who dont and are
                      "hell" bent on mocking it, calling anyone who has this type of faith nutty.

                      how sad

                      Michael

                      >From: "Douglas Lorenz" <Doug@...>

                      >
                      >I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for
                      >these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually
                      >serious. I don't see evangelical indoctrination as a solution to the
                      >Mexican government's problems. Even coming from a source as horribly
                      >biased
                      >as "Christianaty Today", this story comes across as nothing more than a
                      >call
                      >to force God upon the little brown savages. For example:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible study
                      >over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for their parents
                      >and families. "We are planting seeds in the children," said Elizabeth Del
                      >Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another Christian school in Juarez.
                      >"They're learning Bible stories, learning to pray for their problems, and
                      >they are bringing those things home."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more important
                      >to
                      >teach these people how to pray heavily rather than learning how to create
                      >an
                      >economy that can be sustained, but clearly that is not a solution that will
                      >result in a Mexico that will be able to offer its people incentives against
                      >illegally crossing the border into the U.S.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn't there a YahooGroup
                      >somewhere for nutty evangelicals?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Doug
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                      >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                      >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                      >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                      >feel good.
                      >
                      >
                      >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                      >
                      > >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                      >this,
                      > >John...
                      > >
                      > >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                      >this
                      > >comment insulting.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >--
                      >Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                      >breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                      >..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                      >
                      >
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