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RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

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  • Douglas Lorenz
    I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually serious. I
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005

      I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually serious…  I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution to the Mexican government’s problems.  Even coming from a source as horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.  For example:

       

      Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children," said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another Christian school in Juarez . "They're learning Bible stories, learning to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."

       

      Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border into the U.S.

       

      Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action?  Isn’t there a YahooGroup somewhere for nutty evangelicals?

       

          Doug

       

       


      From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Pankratz
      Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

       

      Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
      feel good.


      Adam J Bernay wrote:

      >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at this,
      >John...
      >
      >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
      >comment insulting.
      >

      >


      --
      Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote.  It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
      ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/

    • John Pankratz
      Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but for you to call these
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
        Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
        everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
        for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
        children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
        religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
        Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
        the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a modernizing
        Mexico.

        I am not a pentecostal, and yet I see what these pastors in Mexico doing
        as morally and socially uplifting and bringing hope to the otherwise
        hopeless. It has a parallel in the 18th century genesis of the Sunday
        School.

        http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-raikes.htm

        Those English schools started by evangelical reformers among the
        illiterate child laborers of the early industrial revolution were begun
        to teach basic education, the 3 Rs, along with Christian teaching, on
        the only day they weren't working 12 hours a day in the factories:
        Sunday. These children had been abandoned by the state, and their only
        hope for the future was the only opportunity they had from the only ones
        interested in helping them: the originators of the Sunday School. It was
        an all-day affair, and not in any way like the modern day hour a Sunday
        coloring and Bible story session found in modern churches.

        However, I did NOT mean to give the impression that this one project is
        the "army". It is only one small front in the battle. Here is another
        manifestation of the army.

        http://www.endofthespear.com/

        The film is coming out on January 20. I suggest you would be enlightened
        if you would view END OF THE SPEAR. You will see how God's army does
        indeed win hearts and minds through sacrifice.

        I truly do believe that God is mightier than any army. I am not ashamed
        of the Gospel. If you are not one who believes in God or in Christ, then
        maybe you could at least agree that the power of ideas and example is
        greater than that of pure force.

        That said, and Adam take note: I am not saying that there is not a
        necessary place for the military. There are some who will not respond to
        the Message of Peace and who must be resisted with force. This thing
        about guns changing hearts and minds is not what they are about. They
        are about killing people and breaking things, and more than often that
        only incites hate and resistance rather than changing hearts.
        Unfortunately is is sometimes necessary.

        The problem we face today with a standing army is that when one joins he
        surrenders his conscience and his will to unknown future decisions of
        political leaders to go to war. George Washington's army knew what they
        were fighting for.

        ----------------------


        Douglas Lorenz wrote:

        > I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support
        > for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was
        > actually serious… I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution
        > to the Mexican government’s problems. Even coming from a source as
        > horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as
        > nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.
        > For example:
        >
        > Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible
        > study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for
        > their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children,"
        > said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another
        > Christian school in Juarez. "They're learning Bible stories, learning
        > to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."
        >
        > Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more
        > important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than
        > learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly
        > that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able
        > to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border
        > into the U.S.
        >
        > *Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn’t there a YahooGroup
        > somewhere for nutty evangelicals? *
        >
        > Doug
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



        --
        Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
        ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
      • Dave Nalle
        I m an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is not necessarily a good thing, I d still rather kids get a religious education than one based
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
          I'm an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is
          not necessarily a good thing, I'd still rather kids get a religious
          education than one based in statist socialism from a government
          school.

          Dave
          --

          Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
          http://www.elitistpig.com
        • Adam J Bernay
          John, there s a term for the logical fallacy you re using, it s called a false or forced dichotomy. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
            John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
            false or forced dichotomy.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of John Pankratz
            Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

            Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
            feel good.


            Adam J Bernay wrote:

            >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
            this,
            >John...
            >
            >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
            >comment insulting.
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
            breath of those things on which we do not vote.
            ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Adam J Bernay
            As would I (and I am religious). But that s not what John SAID. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
              As would I (and I am religious). But that's not what John SAID.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Dave Nalle
              Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:54 PM
              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

              I'm an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is
              not necessarily a good thing, I'd still rather kids get a religious
              education than one based in statist socialism from a government
              school.

              Dave
              --

              Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
              http://www.elitistpig.com




              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • John Pankratz
              Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but for you to call these
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
                everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
                for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
                children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
                religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
                Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
                the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a modernizing
                Mexico.

                I am not a pentecostal, and yet I see what these pastors in Mexico doing
                as morally and socially uplifting and bringing hope to the otherwise
                hopeless. It has a parallel in the 18th century genesis of the Sunday
                School.

                http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-raikes.htm

                Those English schools started by evangelical reformers among the
                illiterate child laborers of the early industrial revolution were begun
                to teach basic education, the 3 Rs, along with Christian teaching, on
                the only day they weren't working 12 hours a day in the factories:
                Sunday. These children had been abandoned by the state, and their only
                hope for the future was the only opportunity they had from the only ones
                interested in helping them: the originators of the Sunday School. It was
                an all-day affair, and not in any way like the modern day hour a Sunday
                coloring and Bible story session found in modern churches.

                However, I did NOT mean to give the impression that this one project is
                the "army". It is only one small front in the battle. Here is another
                manifestation of the army.

                http://www.endofthespear.com/

                The film is coming out on January 20. I suggest you would be enlightened
                if you would view END OF THE SPEAR. You will see how God's army does
                indeed win hearts and minds through sacrifice.

                I truly do believe that God is mightier than any army. I am not ashamed
                of the Gospel. If you are not one who believes in God or in Christ, then
                maybe you could at least agree that the power of ideas and example is
                greater than that of pure force.

                That said, and Adam take note: I am not saying that there is not a
                necessary place for the military. There are some who will not respond to
                the Message of Peace and who must be resisted with force. This thing
                about guns changing hearts and minds is not what they are about. They
                are about killing people and breaking things, and more than often that
                only incites hate and resistance rather than changing hearts.
                Unfortunately is is sometimes necessary.

                The problem we face today with a standing army is that when one joins he
                surrenders his conscience and his will to unknown future decisions of
                political leaders to go to war. George Washington's army knew what they
                were fighting for.

                ----------------------


                Douglas Lorenz wrote:

                > I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support
                > for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was
                > actually serious… I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution
                > to the Mexican government’s problems. Even coming from a source as
                > horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as
                > nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.
                > For example:
                >
                > Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible
                > study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for
                > their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children,"
                > said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another
                > Christian school in Juarez. "They're learning Bible stories, learning
                > to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."
                >
                > Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more
                > important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than
                > learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly
                > that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able
                > to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border
                > into the U.S.
                >
                > *Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn’t there a YahooGroup
                > somewhere for nutty evangelicals? *
                >
                > Doug
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



                --
                Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
              • John Pankratz
                What is the unstated third choice? Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to you? ... -- Freedom is not measured by the ability
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                  What is the unstated third choice?
                  Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
                  you?



                  Adam J Bernay wrote:

                  >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                  >false or forced dichotomy.
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                  >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                  >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                  >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                  >
                  >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                  >feel good.
                  >
                  >
                  >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                  >>
                  >>
                  >this,
                  >
                  >
                  >>John...
                  >>
                  >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
                  >>comment insulting.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                  ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                • greenspj
                  Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere. This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group. Thanks! ... modernizing
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                    Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.

                    This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.

                    Thanks!


                    --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, John Pankratz <pankratz@r...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
                    > everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
                    > for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
                    > children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
                    > religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
                    > Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
                    > the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a
                    modernizing
                    > Mexico.
                    >
                  • John Pankratz
                    I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages and didn t see much discussion of any meaningful action. On the other hand, my
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                      I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages
                      and didn't see much discussion of any meaningful action.

                      On the other hand, my suggestion that we help voluntary action to
                      educate and help the downtrodden rather than shoot at them is greeted by
                      hoots and derision.

                      The US Gov. is shooting down missionaries over the Amazon, as part of
                      its "war on drugs",

                      http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/apr2001/peru-a24_prn.shtml

                      Note: I picked this site out of many to demonstrate that the
                      incompetence and wrong headedness of the US Government is contributing
                      to the fuel for the world socialist movement. At the same time people
                      complain of the gathering strength of the socialists.

                      I say, help the Christian missionaries whether you agree with them or
                      not. Its a whole lot better than funding war.
                      And if you see that as a false dichotomy, please tell me the other
                      alternatives.

                      By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                      "patriot" act?

                      John P.
                      ......................................................................................

                      greenspj wrote:

                      >Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.
                      >
                      >This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.
                      >
                      >Thanks!
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                      ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                    • Steve Redlich
                      ... http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358 Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                        On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, John Pankratz wrote:

                        > By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                        > "patriot" act?

                        http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358

                        Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture Motion.

                        Steve
                      • Adam J Bernay
                        One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons. ... From:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                          One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without
                          advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of John Pankratz
                          Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 1:45 PM
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

                          What is the unstated third choice?
                          Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
                          you?



                          Adam J Bernay wrote:

                          >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                          >false or forced dichotomy.
                          >
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                          >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                          >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                          >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                          >
                          >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                          >feel good.
                          >
                          >
                          >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                          >>
                          >>
                          >this,
                          >
                          >
                          >>John...
                          >>
                          >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                          this
                          >>comment insulting.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                          breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                          ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • michael franks
                          ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power of God and Him to be who He says He
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 17, 2005
                            ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug

                            once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power
                            of God and Him to be who He says He is.........and those who dont and are
                            "hell" bent on mocking it, calling anyone who has this type of faith nutty.

                            how sad

                            Michael

                            >From: "Douglas Lorenz" <Doug@...>

                            >
                            >I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for
                            >these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually
                            >serious. I don't see evangelical indoctrination as a solution to the
                            >Mexican government's problems. Even coming from a source as horribly
                            >biased
                            >as "Christianaty Today", this story comes across as nothing more than a
                            >call
                            >to force God upon the little brown savages. For example:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible study
                            >over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for their parents
                            >and families. "We are planting seeds in the children," said Elizabeth Del
                            >Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another Christian school in Juarez.
                            >"They're learning Bible stories, learning to pray for their problems, and
                            >they are bringing those things home."
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more important
                            >to
                            >teach these people how to pray heavily rather than learning how to create
                            >an
                            >economy that can be sustained, but clearly that is not a solution that will
                            >result in a Mexico that will be able to offer its people incentives against
                            >illegally crossing the border into the U.S.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn't there a YahooGroup
                            >somewhere for nutty evangelicals?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Doug
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                            >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                            >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                            >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                            >feel good.
                            >
                            >
                            >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                            >
                            > >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                            >this,
                            > >John...
                            > >
                            > >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                            >this
                            > >comment insulting.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >--
                            >Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                            >breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                            >..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                            >
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