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RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

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  • Adam J Bernay
    I m sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at this, John... And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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      I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at this,
      John...

      And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
      comment insulting.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of John Pankratz
      Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 9:54 AM
      To: rlcmcallen@...
      Subject: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

      This is the only army that can truly win hearts and minds and bring
      peace - one person at a time. You should encourage your children and
      grandchildren to join this army.

      http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/012/20.58.html

      John Pankratz


      --
      Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the
      power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew
      first, and also to the Greek.

      http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/rom1.html







      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • John Pankratz
      Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and feel good. ... -- Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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        Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
        feel good.


        Adam J Bernay wrote:

        >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at this,
        >John...
        >
        >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
        >comment insulting.
        >
        >
        >


        --
        Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
        ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
      • Douglas Lorenz
        I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually serious. I
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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          I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually serious…  I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution to the Mexican government’s problems.  Even coming from a source as horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.  For example:

           

          Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children," said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another Christian school in Juarez . "They're learning Bible stories, learning to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."

           

          Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border into the U.S.

           

          Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action?  Isn’t there a YahooGroup somewhere for nutty evangelicals?

           

              Doug

           

           


          From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Pankratz
          Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

           

          Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
          feel good.


          Adam J Bernay wrote:

          >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at this,
          >John...
          >
          >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
          >comment insulting.
          >

          >


          --
          Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote.  It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
          ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/

        • John Pankratz
          Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but for you to call these
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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            Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
            everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
            for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
            children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
            religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
            Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
            the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a modernizing
            Mexico.

            I am not a pentecostal, and yet I see what these pastors in Mexico doing
            as morally and socially uplifting and bringing hope to the otherwise
            hopeless. It has a parallel in the 18th century genesis of the Sunday
            School.

            http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-raikes.htm

            Those English schools started by evangelical reformers among the
            illiterate child laborers of the early industrial revolution were begun
            to teach basic education, the 3 Rs, along with Christian teaching, on
            the only day they weren't working 12 hours a day in the factories:
            Sunday. These children had been abandoned by the state, and their only
            hope for the future was the only opportunity they had from the only ones
            interested in helping them: the originators of the Sunday School. It was
            an all-day affair, and not in any way like the modern day hour a Sunday
            coloring and Bible story session found in modern churches.

            However, I did NOT mean to give the impression that this one project is
            the "army". It is only one small front in the battle. Here is another
            manifestation of the army.

            http://www.endofthespear.com/

            The film is coming out on January 20. I suggest you would be enlightened
            if you would view END OF THE SPEAR. You will see how God's army does
            indeed win hearts and minds through sacrifice.

            I truly do believe that God is mightier than any army. I am not ashamed
            of the Gospel. If you are not one who believes in God or in Christ, then
            maybe you could at least agree that the power of ideas and example is
            greater than that of pure force.

            That said, and Adam take note: I am not saying that there is not a
            necessary place for the military. There are some who will not respond to
            the Message of Peace and who must be resisted with force. This thing
            about guns changing hearts and minds is not what they are about. They
            are about killing people and breaking things, and more than often that
            only incites hate and resistance rather than changing hearts.
            Unfortunately is is sometimes necessary.

            The problem we face today with a standing army is that when one joins he
            surrenders his conscience and his will to unknown future decisions of
            political leaders to go to war. George Washington's army knew what they
            were fighting for.

            ----------------------


            Douglas Lorenz wrote:

            > I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support
            > for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was
            > actually serious… I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution
            > to the Mexican government’s problems. Even coming from a source as
            > horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as
            > nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.
            > For example:
            >
            > Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible
            > study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for
            > their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children,"
            > said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another
            > Christian school in Juarez. "They're learning Bible stories, learning
            > to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."
            >
            > Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more
            > important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than
            > learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly
            > that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able
            > to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border
            > into the U.S.
            >
            > *Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn’t there a YahooGroup
            > somewhere for nutty evangelicals? *
            >
            > Doug
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



            --
            Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
            ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
          • Dave Nalle
            I m an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is not necessarily a good thing, I d still rather kids get a religious education than one based
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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              I'm an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is
              not necessarily a good thing, I'd still rather kids get a religious
              education than one based in statist socialism from a government
              school.

              Dave
              --

              Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
              http://www.elitistpig.com
            • Adam J Bernay
              John, there s a term for the logical fallacy you re using, it s called a false or forced dichotomy. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                false or forced dichotomy.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of John Pankratz
                Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

                Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                feel good.


                Adam J Bernay wrote:

                >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                this,
                >John...
                >
                >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
                >comment insulting.
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Adam J Bernay
                As would I (and I am religious). But that s not what John SAID. ... From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                  As would I (and I am religious). But that's not what John SAID.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Dave Nalle
                  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:54 PM
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

                  I'm an atheist, and while I think that Christian indoctrination is
                  not necessarily a good thing, I'd still rather kids get a religious
                  education than one based in statist socialism from a government
                  school.

                  Dave
                  --

                  Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
                  http://www.elitistpig.com




                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • John Pankratz
                  Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but for you to call these
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
                    everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
                    for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
                    children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
                    religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
                    Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
                    the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a modernizing
                    Mexico.

                    I am not a pentecostal, and yet I see what these pastors in Mexico doing
                    as morally and socially uplifting and bringing hope to the otherwise
                    hopeless. It has a parallel in the 18th century genesis of the Sunday
                    School.

                    http://www.infed.org/walking/wa-raikes.htm

                    Those English schools started by evangelical reformers among the
                    illiterate child laborers of the early industrial revolution were begun
                    to teach basic education, the 3 Rs, along with Christian teaching, on
                    the only day they weren't working 12 hours a day in the factories:
                    Sunday. These children had been abandoned by the state, and their only
                    hope for the future was the only opportunity they had from the only ones
                    interested in helping them: the originators of the Sunday School. It was
                    an all-day affair, and not in any way like the modern day hour a Sunday
                    coloring and Bible story session found in modern churches.

                    However, I did NOT mean to give the impression that this one project is
                    the "army". It is only one small front in the battle. Here is another
                    manifestation of the army.

                    http://www.endofthespear.com/

                    The film is coming out on January 20. I suggest you would be enlightened
                    if you would view END OF THE SPEAR. You will see how God's army does
                    indeed win hearts and minds through sacrifice.

                    I truly do believe that God is mightier than any army. I am not ashamed
                    of the Gospel. If you are not one who believes in God or in Christ, then
                    maybe you could at least agree that the power of ideas and example is
                    greater than that of pure force.

                    That said, and Adam take note: I am not saying that there is not a
                    necessary place for the military. There are some who will not respond to
                    the Message of Peace and who must be resisted with force. This thing
                    about guns changing hearts and minds is not what they are about. They
                    are about killing people and breaking things, and more than often that
                    only incites hate and resistance rather than changing hearts.
                    Unfortunately is is sometimes necessary.

                    The problem we face today with a standing army is that when one joins he
                    surrenders his conscience and his will to unknown future decisions of
                    political leaders to go to war. George Washington's army knew what they
                    were fighting for.

                    ----------------------


                    Douglas Lorenz wrote:

                    > I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support
                    > for these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was
                    > actually serious… I don’t see evangelical indoctrination as a solution
                    > to the Mexican government’s problems. Even coming from a source as
                    > horribly biased as “Christianaty Today”, this story comes across as
                    > nothing more than a call to force God upon the little brown savages.
                    > For example:
                    >
                    > Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible
                    > study over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for
                    > their parents and families. "We are planting seeds in the children,"
                    > said Elizabeth Del Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another
                    > Christian school in Juarez. "They're learning Bible stories, learning
                    > to pray for their problems, and they are bringing those things home."
                    >
                    > Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more
                    > important to teach these people how to pray heavily rather than
                    > learning how to create an economy that can be sustained, but clearly
                    > that is not a solution that will result in a Mexico that will be able
                    > to offer its people incentives against illegally crossing the border
                    > into the U.S.
                    >
                    > *Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn’t there a YahooGroup
                    > somewhere for nutty evangelicals? *
                    >
                    > Doug
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------



                    --
                    Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                    breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                    ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                  • John Pankratz
                    What is the unstated third choice? Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to you? ... -- Freedom is not measured by the ability
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                      What is the unstated third choice?
                      Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
                      you?



                      Adam J Bernay wrote:

                      >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                      >false or forced dichotomy.
                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                      >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                      >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                      >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                      >
                      >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                      >feel good.
                      >
                      >
                      >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                      >>
                      >>
                      >this,
                      >
                      >
                      >>John...
                      >>
                      >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find this
                      >>comment insulting.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                      ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                    • greenspj
                      Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere. This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group. Thanks! ... modernizing
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                        Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.

                        This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.

                        Thanks!


                        --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, John Pankratz <pankratz@r...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Your religious intolerance is noted. I am not in agreement with
                        > everything the pentecostal branch of the Christian church teaches, but
                        > for you to call these schools madrassas betrays your own bigotry. These
                        > children are not being taught to hate, and they are not being taught
                        > religion exclusively. They are receiving a general education in a
                        > Christian context. They are being taught to love. They are being taught
                        > the skills they will need to begin to hope for a future in a
                        modernizing
                        > Mexico.
                        >
                      • John Pankratz
                        I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages and didn t see much discussion of any meaningful action. On the other hand, my
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                          I took a minute or two to look back a few days over RLC-action messages
                          and didn't see much discussion of any meaningful action.

                          On the other hand, my suggestion that we help voluntary action to
                          educate and help the downtrodden rather than shoot at them is greeted by
                          hoots and derision.

                          The US Gov. is shooting down missionaries over the Amazon, as part of
                          its "war on drugs",

                          http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/apr2001/peru-a24_prn.shtml

                          Note: I picked this site out of many to demonstrate that the
                          incompetence and wrong headedness of the US Government is contributing
                          to the fuel for the world socialist movement. At the same time people
                          complain of the gathering strength of the socialists.

                          I say, help the Christian missionaries whether you agree with them or
                          not. Its a whole lot better than funding war.
                          And if you see that as a false dichotomy, please tell me the other
                          alternatives.

                          By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                          "patriot" act?

                          John P.
                          ......................................................................................

                          greenspj wrote:

                          >Please take this to RLC-Discuss, GOP-Liberty, or elsewhere.
                          >
                          >This is NOT appropriate subject matter for this group.
                          >
                          >Thanks!
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                          ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                        • Steve Redlich
                          ... http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358 Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
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                            On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, John Pankratz wrote:

                            > By the way, does anyone know how the various Senators voted today on the
                            > "patriot" act?

                            http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00358

                            Craig, Hagel and Murkowski No on the Cloture Motion.

                            Steve
                          • Adam J Bernay
                            One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons. ... From:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 16, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              One can easily support the military and the war on terrorism without
                              advocating fences on the border and enlarging our prisons.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of John Pankratz
                              Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 1:45 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds

                              What is the unstated third choice?
                              Did you see what I wrote in answer to Lorenz after my too-brief reply to
                              you?



                              Adam J Bernay wrote:

                              >John, there's a term for the logical fallacy you're using, it's called a
                              >false or forced dichotomy.
                              >
                              >-----Original Message-----
                              >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                              >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                              >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                              >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                              >
                              >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                              >feel good.
                              >
                              >
                              >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                              >>
                              >>
                              >this,
                              >
                              >
                              >>John...
                              >>
                              >>And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                              this
                              >>comment insulting.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              --
                              Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                              breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                              ..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/





                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • michael franks
                              ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power of God and Him to be who He says He
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 17, 2005
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                                ......you anti-Christian biggot you Doug

                                once again......its clearly a difference of those who believe in the power
                                of God and Him to be who He says He is.........and those who dont and are
                                "hell" bent on mocking it, calling anyone who has this type of faith nutty.

                                how sad

                                Michael

                                >From: "Douglas Lorenz" <Doug@...>

                                >
                                >I originally thought that Pankratz was being sarcastic in his support for
                                >these Christian madrassas, then I see in his reply that he was actually
                                >serious. I don't see evangelical indoctrination as a solution to the
                                >Mexican government's problems. Even coming from a source as horribly
                                >biased
                                >as "Christianaty Today", this story comes across as nothing more than a
                                >call
                                >to force God upon the little brown savages. For example:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Teachers at Gabriela Mistral report that students often prefer Bible study
                                >over math or history. Many ask if they can fast and pray for their parents
                                >and families. "We are planting seeds in the children," said Elizabeth Del
                                >Toro, 40, principal of Libertador, another Christian school in Juarez.
                                >"They're learning Bible stories, learning to pray for their problems, and
                                >they are bringing those things home."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Many of the kooky evangelicals probably believe that it is more important
                                >to
                                >teach these people how to pray heavily rather than learning how to create
                                >an
                                >economy that can be sustained, but clearly that is not a solution that will
                                >result in a Mexico that will be able to offer its people incentives against
                                >illegally crossing the border into the U.S.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Besides, why is this issue on RLC-Action? Isn't there a YahooGroup
                                >somewhere for nutty evangelicals?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Doug
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                                >Behalf Of John Pankratz
                                >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
                                >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Winning Hearts and Minds
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >Then you can build your fence on the border, enlarge our prisons and
                                >feel good.
                                >
                                >
                                >Adam J Bernay wrote:
                                >
                                > >I'm sure my colleagues at the Republican Jewish Coalition will JUMP at
                                >this,
                                > >John...
                                > >
                                > >And as the younger brother of a U.S. Army Sergeant First Class, I find
                                >this
                                > >comment insulting.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >--
                                >Freedom is not measured by the ability to vote. It is measured by the
                                >breath of those things on which we do not vote.
                                >..... John T. Wenders http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~jwenders/
                                >
                                >
                                >
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