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Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan

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  • John Pankratz
    You probably noticed that I ve already had a go-round with others about the eagle thing. I follow Ben Franklin s lead on that one. Although the eagle graphic
    Message 1 of 26 , Jul 19, 2005
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      You probably noticed that I've already had a go-round with others about
      the eagle thing. I follow Ben Franklin's lead on that one.

      Although the eagle graphic is very well done from an artistic
      standpoint, to me it looks more like the NRA or Eagle Forum than the
      RLC. It doesn't evoke the identification with the Republican Party, and
      it does evoke more of the military, aggressive, foreign-policy aspect of
      the country than it does the constitutional, government by the people,
      domestic agenda of the RLC.

      Also, the torchbearing elephant is graphically more modern than most of
      the other submissions. It has a freshness and an energy to it that the
      RLC needs.

      It would look great against a background of bursting skyrockets in a
      night sky for a cover.

      John P.
      .....................

      westmiller@... wrote:

      > Not that it matters, but my favorite is the eagle
      > with superimposed flag at the bottom.
      >
      >
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      --
      I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

      http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
    • Adam J Bernay
      I believe my logo is closest to what you mean. I think it would be a good idea to add www.RLC.org under the bell, with RLC written bigger than the www.
      Message 2 of 26 , Jul 19, 2005
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        I believe my logo is closest to what you mean. I think it would be a good
        idea to add "www.RLC.org" under the bell, with "RLC" written bigger than the
        "www." or the ".org".

        As for the slogan... I think something quick and easy is best, and since the
        liberty bell was the icon on the logo (designed to easily be a button or
        sticker or on hats and shirts as well as being on letterheads and whatnot),
        I told the graphic artist I was working with to put the slogan, "Let Freedom
        Ring" on it. I believe this would be a good slogan, since it connotes
        communicating liberty to all, which is one of our main goals.


        Adam

        "Yes, I do have questions. I get to ask them BECAUSE I'M FREE!"
        -- "Bumper of My SUV," Chely Wright

        -----Original Message-----
        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Ray Holtorf
        Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 11:29 AM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan

        Personally, I'd like to see both the logo and the
        slogan changed. I like the logo, I do not like the
        slogan. I would think something like "Supporting
        Constitutionally Limited Government" would be better.

        The logo - I'm a minimalist. I like things that are
        simple, easy to draw (and therefore emulate), and
        recognizable. My absolute favorite is the triple
        diamond used by Mitsubishi. I think the Nike "swoosh"
        and the United "U" are examples of good logos. I think
        our logo must incorporate our initials, and a
        recognizable symbol - like a liberty bell made out of
        the letters "RLC." I'm not sure exactly how to go
        about it...
      • Chuck Seberg
        This Republican elephant is used directly by some other (imagination impaired?) affiliate groups of the Party. They put it inside of a circle or a shield
        Message 3 of 26 , Jul 19, 2005
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          This Republican elephant is used directly by some other (imagination impaired?)  affiliate groups of the Party.  They put it inside of a circle or a shield with the name of the group attached.  This shows their affiliation nicely.  I'm not suggesting we also use this image, but if we don't use an elephant of some type we're separating ourselves from the center.  Not a good move in my view.  But I guess you already knew that. 
           
          (Also sent as an attachment for those that can't receive html email)
           
          Chuck
        • Adam J Bernay
          Problem: Unless we re an officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we CANNOT use the official GOP elephant. And, to my knowledge, if we re an officially
          Message 4 of 26 , Jul 19, 2005
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            Problem: Unless we’re an officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we CANNOT use the official GOP elephant.  And, to my knowledge, if we’re an officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we CANNOT endorse in primaries.  That is a devil’s bargain if I ever heard one.

             

             

            Adam

            "Yes, I do have questions.  I get to ask them BECAUSE I'M FREE!"
               -- "Bumper of My SUV," Chely Wright


            From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Seberg
            Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:12 PM
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan

             

             

            This Republican elephant is used directly by some other (imagination impaired?)  affiliate groups of the Party.  They put it inside of a circle or a shield with the name of the group attached.  This shows their affiliation nicely.  I'm not suggesting we also use this image, but if we don't use an elephant of some type we're separating ourselves from the center.  Not a good move in my view.  But I guess you already knew that. 

             

            (Also sent as an attachment for those that can't receive html email)

             

            Chuck

          • J. Keith Harmon
            How about More liberty, less government as our motto? It s short and to the point. As for the logo, what about reaching back to something historical? Not
            Message 5 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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              How about "More liberty, less government" as our motto?  It's short and to the point.

              As for the logo, what about reaching back to something historical?  Not necessarily from the era of the Founders but maybe something classical?  Certainly, the Founders were heavily influenced by Greece and Rome.  As an alternative, something I've always liked is the Clan Wallace crest, which reads, "Pro Libertate":

              [Clan Crest design]

              I'll admit it's a little martial for our purposes, but it does tie in to a well-known (post Braveheart, that is) champion of freedom.  In any event, if we select something from history, we can always incorporate into the logo something GOPish to show our affiliation.

              Keith
              Tampa, Florida

              westmiller@... wrote:
              From: John Pankratz pankratz@...
              > I really think Bill Westmiller's elephant with a torch
              > has the right mix of symbolism. Maybe just a slight
              > suggestion: put LIBERTY around the torch instead
              > of the little circles.
              > That elephant has real energy!
               
                  Thanks. It could stand a professional cleanup, but
              the theme implied is "carrying the torch of liberty".
              It isn't as obvious as I'd like, but the "little circles"
              around the torch are supposed to be white stars on
              a blue background, with the flame representing the
              red stripes, of the American flag.
               
                  I've been negligent (actually, distracted by other
              RLC business) in programming the rlc_logo page
              to allow members to vote on a final official logo:
               
                  The finalists are marked, but all of these are
              original art with all rights assigned to the RLC, so
              any of them can be used. (Some may need a fine
              art touch-up to be acceptable.)
                  We have been using the elephant for several
              brochures ... and a variation for use at the Free
              State Project PorcFest (including T-Shirts).
                  Not that it matters, but my favorite is the eagle
              with superimposed flag at the bottom.
               
                  As for slogans, we've been using "The Conscience
              of the Republican Party" as a take-off on the Goldwater
              theme. Although it's been used on the website for a
              long time, it can certainly be changed.
                  Personally, I like short and simple. Something
              like: "Eternal Vigilance".
               
              Bill
            • jonhenke@comcast.net
              Yeah, the Clan Wallace crest *is* a bit, ah, martial. Unless we re planning on painting our faces blue and taking Capitol Hill, I d suggest something a
              Message 6 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                Yeah, the Clan Wallace crest *is* a bit, ah, martial. Unless we're planning on painting our faces blue and taking Capitol Hill, I'd suggest something a little more politic.

                Of the logos listed here: http://www.republicanliberty.org/news/rlc_logos.htm

                ...only two really strike me.

                1) Westmiller's elephant carrying a torch:
                PRO: it has energy, strength and a message. Plus, it clearly identifies our political affiliation.
                CON: it's a complicated logo.

                2) McWilliam's Elephant Flair:
                PRO: Simple, elegant, dashing. It has movement, while staying simple and conveying the message....which is everything a logo should be.
                CON: it doesn't incorporate anything to indicate libertarianism.


                On the whole, I'd go with McWilliam's logo. There's always a strong urge to add elements to a logo -- to incorporate more "stuff" to indicate various messages -- but I think that really takes away from the entire point: logos exist to "brand" an entity. Too many elements, and you just confuse the matter.

                I think that one is head and shoulders above the rest.

                --
                --Jon Henke--
                http://www.qando.net
              • J. Keith Harmon
                Although the mad Scotsman approach has some appeal, I agree that the use of the Wallace crest wouldn t be prudent :) My point is that there is some good
                Message 7 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                  Although the mad Scotsman approach has some appeal, I agree that the use
                  of the Wallace crest wouldn't be prudent :) My point is that there is
                  some good historical iconography that we could use at least as a part of
                  any logo that we create. I also agree that the logo doesn't have to say
                  a lot in and of itself--the meaning will come as people begin to
                  recognize it and from its association with other libertarian text and
                  imagery. Think about it--what does a woman with a torch, a bell, or an
                  eagle have to do with freedom or with the U.S.?

                  What about something with the old Ft. Moultrie flag (the blue one with
                  the crescent moon and the word "Liberty" on it)? I'm hardly artistic,
                  but I envision something like an elephant with the Ft. Moultrie flag in
                  its mouth (or held up by its trunk). Of course, if new suggestions are
                  completely out of turn at this point, I like the Elephant Flair logo,
                  too, though--despite what I said above--I think it could survive some
                  sort of addition to invoke the idea of liberty.

                  Keith
                  Tampa, Florida

                  jonhenke@... wrote:

                  >Yeah, the Clan Wallace crest *is* a bit, ah, martial. Unless we're planning on painting our faces blue and taking Capitol Hill, I'd suggest something a little more politic.
                  >
                  >Of the logos listed here: http://www.republicanliberty.org/news/rlc_logos.htm
                  >
                  >...only two really strike me.
                  >
                  >1) Westmiller's elephant carrying a torch:
                  >PRO: it has energy, strength and a message. Plus, it clearly identifies our political affiliation.
                  >CON: it's a complicated logo.
                  >
                  >2) McWilliam's Elephant Flair:
                  >PRO: Simple, elegant, dashing. It has movement, while staying simple and conveying the message....which is everything a logo should be.
                  >CON: it doesn't incorporate anything to indicate libertarianism.
                  >
                  >
                  >On the whole, I'd go with McWilliam's logo. There's always a strong urge to add elements to a logo -- to incorporate more "stuff" to indicate various messages -- but I think that really takes away from the entire point: logos exist to "brand" an entity. Too many elements, and you just confuse the matter.
                  >
                  >I think that one is head and shoulders above the rest.
                  >
                  >--
                  >--Jon Henke--
                  >http://www.qando.net
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • michael franks
                  No, that is incorrect. The use of that elephant isn t an official logo by any national party that I am aware of? It is not copyright either that I am
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                    No, that is incorrect. The use of that elephant isn't an "official" logo by
                    any national party that I am aware of? It is not copyright either that I
                    am aware of?

                    If so, it wouldn't be part of any common clip art program that many graphic
                    programs have in them. In no way does using an elephant logo mean anyone is
                    an "official" auxillary or coalition of the party, UNLESS it is an
                    "official" trademarked logo of a state/national party.

                    Here in Texas we DO have an official RPT logo design. http://texasgop.org/
                    look at the upper left of the party website and THAT is the trademarked
                    "official" logo here.

                    but just standard clip art is NOT the trademarked logo of the national party
                    and we can use it.


                    My vote would be to use an elephant or similar type logo design to make us
                    look like a man stream part of the party for credibility and the psychology
                    of it.

                    Michael Franks

                    >From: "Adam J Bernay" <Republican-Liberty@...>
                    >Reply-To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan
                    >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:27:53 -0700
                    >
                    >Problem: Unless we're an officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we
                    >CANNOT use the official GOP elephant. And, to my knowledge, if we're an
                    >officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we CANNOT endorse in primaries.
                    >That is a devil's bargain if I ever heard one.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Adam
                    >
                    >"Yes, I do have questions. I get to ask them BECAUSE I'M FREE!"
                    > -- "Bumper of My SUV," Chely Wright
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                    >Behalf Of Chuck Seberg
                    >Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:12 PM
                    >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >This Republican elephant is used directly by some other (imagination
                    >impaired?) affiliate groups of the Party. They put it inside of a circle
                    >or a shield with the name of the group attached. This shows their
                    >affiliation nicely. I'm not suggesting we also use this image, but if we
                    >don't use an elephant of some type we're separating ourselves from the
                    >center. Not a good move in my view. But I guess you already knew that.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >(Also sent as an attachment for those that can't receive html email)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Chuck
                    >
                  • Adam J Bernay
                    I just spoke with the RNC Counsel s office, and they confirmed what I said. Apparently, its accessibility on clip art programs is a source of major annoyance
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                      I just spoke with the RNC Counsel's office, and they confirmed what I said.
                      Apparently, its accessibility on clip art programs is a source of major
                      annoyance to them. If we wish to use it, we can apply to their office via a
                      form on the GOP.com website in the Counsel's office section. But it is
                      trademarked by them and they legally control the use and will take action
                      against any group using it in public at the level we're talking about.


                      Adam

                      "Yes, I do have questions. I get to ask them BECAUSE I'M FREE!"
                      -- "Bumper of My SUV," Chely Wright

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of michael franks
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 9:51 AM
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan

                      No, that is incorrect. The use of that elephant isn't an "official" logo by

                      any national party that I am aware of? It is not copyright either that I
                      am aware of?

                      If so, it wouldn't be part of any common clip art program that many graphic
                      programs have in them. In no way does using an elephant logo mean anyone is

                      an "official" auxillary or coalition of the party, UNLESS it is an
                      "official" trademarked logo of a state/national party.

                      Here in Texas we DO have an official RPT logo design. http://texasgop.org/
                      look at the upper left of the party website and THAT is the trademarked
                      "official" logo here.

                      but just standard clip art is NOT the trademarked logo of the national party

                      and we can use it.


                      My vote would be to use an elephant or similar type logo design to make us
                      look like a man stream part of the party for credibility and the psychology
                      of it.

                      Michael Franks

                      >From: "Adam J Bernay" <Republican-Liberty@...>
                      >Reply-To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: <RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan
                      >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 22:27:53 -0700
                      >
                      >Problem: Unless we're an officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we
                      >CANNOT use the official GOP elephant. And, to my knowledge, if we're an
                      >officially sanctioned GOP affiliate group, we CANNOT endorse in primaries.
                      >That is a devil's bargain if I ever heard one.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Adam
                      >
                      >"Yes, I do have questions. I get to ask them BECAUSE I'M FREE!"
                      > -- "Bumper of My SUV," Chely Wright
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      >From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On
                      >Behalf Of Chuck Seberg
                      >Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:12 PM
                      >To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Logo & Slogan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >This Republican elephant is used directly by some other (imagination
                      >impaired?) affiliate groups of the Party. They put it inside of a circle
                      >or a shield with the name of the group attached. This shows their
                      >affiliation nicely. I'm not suggesting we also use this image, but if we
                      >don't use an elephant of some type we're separating ourselves from the
                      >center. Not a good move in my view. But I guess you already knew that.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >(Also sent as an attachment for those that can't receive html email)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Chuck
                      >





                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • John Pankratz
                      Symbols have learned associations connected with them. Some of us are promoting the expedient of using symbols that already have associations connected with
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                        Symbols have learned associations connected with them. Some of us are
                        promoting the expedient of using symbols that already have associations
                        connected with them that we can use to advantage. Starting with a new
                        symbol means a huge amount of advertising and public relations for us
                        and a big learning curve for the public before they "get it."

                        As an example, and you may laugh at me, I cite the Nike "checkmark"
                        logo. If you know me, you know that I'm not a fad follower. People
                        would have to pay me to wear clothing with their logo emblazoned on it.
                        My response would be: "How much will you pay me to advertise your
                        product on my body?"

                        I buy my jeans at K-mart because they fit me. My shirts mostly come
                        from Wal-mart's own brand unless I find a really, really good sale or my
                        wife makes one for me.

                        I kept seeing that big "check" mark on clothing and shoes for years,
                        literally, before it became firmly associated in my own consciousness
                        with NIKE. I still wonder why people will pay extra for it.

                        Symbols are ideally simple, but their message needs to be clear. Making
                        it clear can be expensive.

                        Thanks for indulging my eccentricity by taking the time to read this.

                        John P.
                        ...........................................


                        J. Keith Harmon wrote:

                        > ... Think about it--what does a woman with a torch, a bell, or an
                        >eagle have to do with freedom or with the U.S.?
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

                        http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
                      • John Pankratz
                        Hi, Michael, You know, I think the GOP elephant logo is an excellent piece of work. I would have expected them to have copyrighted it in their own defense. The
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                          Hi, Michael,

                          You know, I think the GOP elephant logo is an excellent piece of work. I
                          would have expected them to have copyrighted it in their own defense.
                          The one thing that bothers me is that the stars are upside down. It
                          excites the conspiracy theorist in me. The only other places I have
                          ever seen 5 pointed stars
                          with two points facing upward has been with satanist or masonic
                          connotations.

                          When we use the logo a few years ago in Hidalgo County we turned the
                          stars right side up.
                          The amazing thing to me is that so few noticed either the original
                          orientation or the change.

                          John P.
                          ................................................................................

                          michael franks wrote:

                          >No, that is incorrect. The use of that elephant isn't an "official" logo by
                          >any national party that I am aware of? It is not copyright either that I
                          >am aware of?
                          >
                          >If so, it wouldn't be part of any common clip art program that many graphic
                          >programs have in them. In no way does using an elephant logo mean anyone is
                          >an "official" auxillary or coalition of the party, UNLESS it is an
                          >"official" trademarked logo of a state/national party.
                          >
                          >Here in Texas we DO have an official RPT logo design. http://texasgop.org/
                          > look at the upper left of the party website and THAT is the trademarked
                          >"official" logo here.
                          >
                          >but just standard clip art is NOT the trademarked logo of the national party
                          >and we can use it.
                          >
                          >
                          >My vote would be to use an elephant or similar type logo design to make us
                          >look like a man stream part of the party for credibility and the psychology
                          >of it.
                          >
                          >Michael Franks
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

                          http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
                        • Jason Burkins
                          with satanist or masonic connotations. If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art Bell worthy accusations to yourself. JAB
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                             with satanist or masonic connotations.

                            If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art Bell worthy accusations to yourself.

                            JAB
                          • westmiller@aol.com
                            A little clarification: The logos on the website were submissions that were reviewed at the last RLC Convention and the finalists were picked by ballot.
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                              A little clarification:
                              The logos on the website were submissions that
                              were reviewed at the last RLC Convention and the
                              "finalists" were picked by ballot. However, given the
                              small turnout, I thought it better to give all members
                              an opportunity to vote. Other business has prevented
                              my completion of the programming.

                              The "Elephant Flair" logo was original, but we
                              later determined that it was drawn under contract
                              to a state GOP chapter, so it isn't available.

                              Note that none of the submissions are necessarily
                              final: any of them could use a good graphic artist's
                              touch up. I've tried to translate my "Elephant Torch"
                              into a simple line drawing, but that's not easy.
                              The intent was to select a general design that
                              could be modified, simplified or enhanced for a
                              variety of purposes. The RLC letters or words can
                              be easily added to any of the designs at any time.

                              The official RNC logo (abstract elephant with 3
                              stars on the top - see _www.RNC.org_ (http://www.RNC.org) ) is copyrighted,
                              even though it appears everywhere as clip art. It can
                              not be used by anyone without permission (which
                              is only granted to official organs of the RNC or GOP.
                              Since we are an independent s527 membership
                              organization - a Caucus of Republicans - we do not
                              have (nor desire, as has been pointed out) official
                              Party status.

                              My suggestion of "Eternal Vigilance" apparently
                              didn't "ring the bell" for many. "The Price of Liberty
                              is Eternal Vigilance" - Andrew Jackson

                              Perhaps we should setup a Yahoo poll on this
                              eGroup and other RLC membership eGroups to
                              get some input before the Board votes. Perhaps
                              the Moderators can set that up, with a reference
                              to the website designs.

                              Bill
                            • rlcmcallen
                              See for yourself: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm Best wishes, John P. ........................... ... Bell worthy
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                See for yourself:

                                http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm

                                Best wishes,
                                John P.
                                ...........................

                                Jason Burkins wrote:

                                > with satanist or masonic connotations.
                                >
                                > If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art
                                Bell worthy accusations to yourself.
                                >
                                > JAB






                                --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, Jason Burkins <jason@b...> wrote:
                                > with satanist or masonic connotations.
                                >
                                > If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art
                                > Bell worthy accusations to yourself.
                                >
                                > JAB
                              • John Pankratz
                                See for yourself: http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm ... -- I m a libertarian by logical necessity because I m a
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                  See for yourself:

                                  http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm



                                  Jason Burkins wrote:

                                  > with satanist or *masonic* connotations.
                                  >
                                  > If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art
                                  > Bell worthy accusations to yourself.
                                  >
                                  > JAB



                                  --
                                  I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

                                  http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
                                • Jason Burkins
                                  Oh I am well aware of the symbol s use. Your characterization that satanist and masonic are comparable is what you have no clue about. Since freemasonry is not
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                    Oh I am well aware of the symbol's use. Your characterization that satanist and masonic are comparable is what you have no clue about. Since freemasonry is not a religion, even the link you reference is ill conceived. 

                                    JAB


                                    On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:43 PM, John Pankratz wrote:

                                    See for yourself:

                                    http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm



                                    Jason Burkins wrote:

                                    >  with satanist or *masonic* connotations.
                                    >
                                    > If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art
                                    > Bell worthy accusations to yourself.
                                    >
                                    > JAB



                                    --
                                    I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

                                    http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html



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                                  • John Pankratz
                                    If you inferred that I was implying a correspondence between freemasonry and satanism or luciferianism that was not my intent. I was merely listing the two
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                      If you inferred that I was implying a correspondence between freemasonry
                                      and satanism or luciferianism that was not my intent. I was merely
                                      listing the two associations that came to mind with the inverted star.
                                      I really can't think of any others except for the GOP elephant.

                                      ------------- john p .................


                                      Jason Burkins wrote:

                                      > Oh I am well aware of the symbol's use. Your characterization that
                                      > satanist and masonic are comparable is what you have no clue about.
                                      > Since freemasonry is not a religion, even the link you reference is
                                      > ill conceived.
                                      >
                                      > JAB
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Jul 20, 2005, at 2:43 PM, John Pankratz wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> See for yourself:
                                      >>
                                      >> http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefseasternstar.htm
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Jason Burkins wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> > with satanist or *masonic* connotations.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > If you do not know what you are talking about, please leave the Art
                                      >> > Bell worthy accusations to yourself.
                                      >> >
                                      >> > JAB
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> --
                                      >> I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.
                                      >>
                                      >> http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> SPONSORED LINKS
                                      >> Republican party
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Republican+party&w1=Republican+party&w2=Rlc&w3=United+states&w4=Party&w5=Activism&c=5&s=75&.sig=iCBlsj0falWs3x5NKzfQCg>
                                      >> Rlc
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Rlc&w1=Republican+party&w2=Rlc&w3=United+states&w4=Party&w5=Activism&c=5&s=75&.sig=Lk6iLKwpQ12KTUNWaPqtBA>
                                      >> United states
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+states&w1=Republican+party&w2=Rlc&w3=United+states&w4=Party&w5=Activism&c=5&s=75&.sig=Q9qt5zUc1ngwEV9MPIBBAg>
                                      >>
                                      >> Party
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Party&w1=Republican+party&w2=Rlc&w3=United+states&w4=Party&w5=Activism&c=5&s=75&.sig=X9asMTocyfyU0yPA-fp1OA>
                                      >> Activism
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Activism&w1=Republican+party&w2=Rlc&w3=United+states&w4=Party&w5=Activism&c=5&s=75&.sig=KfFZJz6G-cfu3q16y11UqQ>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      >>
                                      >> * Visit your group "RLC-Action
                                      >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RLC-Action>" on the web.
                                      >>
                                      >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      >> RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >> <mailto:RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                      >>
                                      >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                      >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > *Jason Burkins*
                                      > *jason@... <mailto:jason@...>*
                                      > */http://jason.burkins.net/*
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      >
                                      > * Visit your group "RLC-Action
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RLC-Action>" on the web.
                                      >
                                      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                      >
                                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                      > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >


                                      --
                                      I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.

                                      http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
                                    • Chuck Seberg
                                      Hot damn, we re one of those evil 527 groups. This puts us in company of George Soros and organizations like America Coming Together . Groups that let their
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                        Hot damn, we're one of those evil 527 groups.  This puts us in company of George Soros and organizations like "America Coming Together".  Groups that let their money do the talking.  Kind of makes you wonder what RLC is doing on the list.  But I guess we can always dream that Mr. Filthy Rich will come along.  Wouldn't that put some spark into our little group? 
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: westmiller
                                            Since we are an independent s527 membership
                                        organization - a Caucus of Republicans - we do not
                                        have (nor desire, as has been pointed out) official
                                        Party status.
                                      • DGHarrison
                                        John Pankratz wrote about the Nike swoosh and the long public learning curve. Corporations do spend millions of dollars with marketing and consumer research
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jul 20, 2005
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                                          John Pankratz wrote about the Nike swoosh and the long public learning
                                          curve. Corporations do spend millions of dollars with marketing and
                                          consumer research firms just to come up with stuff like that. Then they
                                          spend millions more getting the public to accept the image. Sometimes,
                                          even after spending all those millions, a corporation strikes out and
                                          ends up going back to the drawing board. Of course, those guys are
                                          fishing for billions of dollars in retail sales, so maybe it's worth it
                                          for them. We, on the other hand, can't afford to reinvent the wheel, or
                                          in this case, elephant. I really liked the Elephant Flair, but as Bill
                                          points out, it doesn't have clear title. To see it in action, check out
                                          http://www.mngop.org/

                                          I like the Elephant Carrying Liberty Torch, unless someone does a last
                                          ditch effort to introduce something new to the mix. I immediately
                                          figured out that the Elephant was the GOP and the Liberty Torch was the
                                          RLC. The question, I guess, is what does it do for people who aren't
                                          already in the GOP or RLC? That's where the marketing research firms
                                          spend all the money to find out what Joe Average thinks of a new logo.
                                          For us, we'll do a free on-line poll, or at most, maybe print out the
                                          logos and show them to some friends to get a feel for how they may react.

                                          Doug Harrison
                                          Minnesota
                                        • jonhenke@comcast.net
                                          The Elephant Flair logo was original, but we later determined that it was drawn under contract to a state GOP chapter, so it isn t available. - - -Yep,
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jul 21, 2005
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                                            "The "Elephant Flair" logo was original, but we later determined that it was drawn under contract to a state GOP chapter, so it isn't available."


                                            - - -Yep, that would certainly DQ it.



                                            "The intent was to select a general design that could be modified, simplified or enhanced for a variety of purposes. The RLC letters or words can be easily added to any of the designs at any time."

                                            - - -Well, my artistic skills are limited to stick figures -- and not even good stick figures at that -- but Dale Franks put together quite a lot of logos when we were working on something for the Neolibertarian Network. Here are links to a few very good ones:

                                            http://www.qando.net/images/nn14new.gif

                                            http://www.qando.net/images/nn8new.gif

                                            http://www.qando.net/images/nn6new.gif

                                            http://www.qando.net/images/nn2new.gif



                                            "My suggestion of "Eternal Vigilance" apparently didn't "ring the bell" for many."

                                            - - -It's a great point and a good quote, but I'm not sure that it conveys the image that the RLC wants to have.

                                            What is our "brand"? Libertarian-Republicans; Republicans who place liberty first; limited government Republicans. So, how about something short and sweet, like
                                            1) "Liberty First"
                                            2) "Freedom Works"
                                            3) "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
                                            4) Sic Semper Democratus (ok, kidding)

                                            Or, of course, you could always use a variation on the "Free Markets, Free People" theme that -- in my opinion -- covers libertarian ideals so well.

                                            --
                                            --Jon Henke--
                                            http://www.qando.net
                                          • DGHarrison
                                            jonhenke wrote: What is our brand ? Libertarian-Republicans; Republicans who place liberty first; limited government Republicans. So, how about something
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jul 21, 2005
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                                              jonhenke wrote: What is our "brand"?   Libertarian-Republicans;  Republicans who place liberty first; limited government Republicans.   So, how about something short and sweet, like
                                              1) "Liberty First"
                                              2) "Freedom Works"
                                              3)  "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
                                              4)  Sic Semper Democratus  (ok, kidding)
                                              Or, of course, you could always use a variation on the "Free Markets, Free People" theme that -- in my opinion -- covers libertarian ideals so well.

                                              "Freedom Works" is already the name of a conservative activist organization. See http://www.freedomworks.org/ for a look at their website and see how they entice visitors to come back for more. I hope we will be able to get the RLC website looking like that, or any one of thousands of other activist websites. Daily updates and commentary are the living breath of a website, and when there are seldom any updates added, a website is either comatose or dead. People don't come back to visit the dead unless they're family -- like RLC members who keep hoping any sign of life on the home page. (I know ... we're working on it.)

                                              Doug Harrison
                                              Minnesota

                                              jonhenke@... wrote:
                                              "The "Elephant Flair" logo was original, but  we later determined that it was drawn under contract to a state GOP chapter, so it isn't available."


                                              - - -Yep, that would certainly DQ it.  



                                              "The intent was to select a general design  that could be modified, simplified or enhanced for a variety of purposes. The RLC letters or  words can be easily added to any of the designs at any time."

                                              - - -Well, my artistic skills are limited to stick figures -- and not even good stick figures at that -- but Dale Franks put together quite a lot of logos when we were working on something for the Neolibertarian Network.   Here are links to a few very good ones:

                                              http://www.qando.net/images/nn14new.gif

                                              http://www.qando.net/images/nn8new.gif

                                              http://www.qando.net/images/nn6new.gif

                                              http://www.qando.net/images/nn2new.gif



                                              "My suggestion of "Eternal Vigilance"  apparently didn't "ring the bell" for many."

                                              - - -It's a great point and a good quote, but I'm not sure that it conveys the image that the RLC wants to have.   

                                                   What is our "brand"?   Libertarian-Republicans;  Republicans who place liberty first; limited government Republicans.   So, how about something short and sweet, like
                                              1) "Liberty First"
                                              2) "Freedom Works"
                                              3)  "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"
                                              4)  Sic Semper Democratus  (ok, kidding)

                                              Or, of course, you could always use a variation on the "Free Markets, Free People" theme that -- in my opinion -- covers libertarian ideals so well.

                                              --
                                              --Jon Henke--
                                              http://www.qando.net


                                            • jonhenke@comcast.net
                                              I hope we will be able to get the RLC website looking like that, or any one of thousands of other activist websites. Daily updates and commentary are the
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jul 22, 2005
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                                                "I hope we will be able to get the RLC website looking like that, or any one of thousands of other activist websites. Daily updates and commentary are the living breath of a website, and when there are seldom any updates added, a website is either comatose or dead."
                                                 
                                                 
                                                - - -Very true.   I'd love to see the RLC have a blog, but there are problems inherent in that:
                                                 
                                                1) Blogs require a Point of View.   Inevitably, since we don't agree on everything, that would upset members of the RLC.  How would we ensure that the blog doesn't become a divisive point?
                                                 
                                                2) Who would maintain the blog?  How would the group ensure that, let's be blunt, the cranks were not allowed to maintain the blog?    It might be an interesting academic excercise to discuss the gold standard, the elimination of the Fed, the FDA and the Department of Education...but it's not going to happen.   And even discussing it gets you--and everybody associated with you--marked as a crank.  I don't say that to criticize anybody's POV....just to point out that what's not inappropriate on a discussion group is extremely counter-productive when presenting a face to the public.
                                                 
                                                Still, I think such a thing would be incredibly valuable.  Look at the other major 527 groups.  They have blogs, and they're valuable focal-points for spreading the word and attracting attention/new members.
                                                 
                                                --
                                                --Jon Henke--
                                                http://www.qando.net
                                                 
                                              • John Pankratz
                                                ... You could have more than one blog , illustrating by example the diversity found in the RLC. There would have to be some agreement on common ground going
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jul 22, 2005
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                                                  jonhenke@... wrote:
                                                  "I hope we will be able to get the RLC website looking like that, or any one of thousands of other activist websites. Daily updates and commentary are the living breath of a website, and when there are seldom any updates added, a website is either comatose or dead."
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  - - -Very true.   I'd love to see the RLC have a blog, but there are problems inherent in that:
                                                   
                                                  1) Blogs require a Point of View.   Inevitably, since we don't agree on everything, that would upset members of the RLC.  How would we ensure that the blog doesn't become a divisive point?

                                                  You could have more than one blog , illustrating by example the diversity found in the RLC.  There would have to be some agreement on common ground going in, on what the RLC stands for, and then let different opinions show.  It might make more people feel comfortable about joining.  One thing about the RNC site is that it seems to exactly mirror the Administration about everything.
                                                   
                                                  2) Who would maintain the blog?  How would the group ensure that, let's be blunt, the cranks were not allowed to maintain the blog?    It might be an interesting academic excercise to discuss the gold standard, the elimination of the Fed, the FDA and the Department of Education...but it's not going to happen.   And even discussing it gets you--and everybody associated with you--marked as a crank.  I don't say that to criticize anybody's POV....just to point out that what's not inappropriate on a discussion group is extremely counter-productive when presenting a face to the public.

                                                  One man's crank is another man's hero.  You have to allow diversity within the written definition of our message.  I would imagine you could keep from having the very worst choices of maintainer by ELECTING him or her.

                                                  By the way, I wonder why there are so few women in the RLC or at least participating. Are there any who post?
                                                   
                                                  Still, I think such a thing would be incredibly valuable.  Look at the other major 527 groups.  They have blogs, and they're valuable focal-points for spreading the word and attracting attention/new members.
                                                   
                                                  If they can do it and we can't maybe it says something about us that needs to be changed. Maybe even it explains something about how small we remain when at least 1/4 of Republicans agree with us on major points.

                                                  John P.
                                                  --Jon Henke--
                                                  http://www.qando.net
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  -- 
                                                  I'm a libertarian by logical necessity because I'm a Christian.
                                                  
                                                  http://www.theadvocates.org/christian/thies.html
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