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Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

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  • bill Jambura
    Good vibrations sounds like an old Beach Boy song. In those days, I too studied oscillation theory and molecular resonance. But as Joan Baez sang back then:
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 10, 2005
       

      "Good vibrations" sounds like an old Beach Boy song.  In those days, I too studied oscillation theory and molecular resonance. But as Joan Baez sang back then: When will we ever learn the ever learn? 

       

      The lesson is that potheads resonate with potheads--like a midnight choir of drunks resonates with itself when singing religious tomes for their supper at a homeless shelter. But I think the Libs secured that voting base long ago, and forever.  Not that drunks and addicts vote; they're too incoherent for that.  But if they ever did, they'd surely add up to one point, leaving the other 99% up for grabs. 

       

      Meanwhile, big government gets bigger, economic servitude (taxes) is an ever expanding foundation for modern day feudalism, and our police act more like a king's guard or third world military designed to 'manage the surfs' instead of upholding our constitution.

       
      But intellectual discourse is therapeutic for us intellectuals, notwithstanding the fact that few, if any, elected officials respect intelligence, much less our constitution.   Instead, they sold out to money and power while we made silly arguments over OJ Simpson, Bill Clinton's sex life, and or Michael Jackson perversions. Yet, we sure do love good gossip!
       
      Addictive or not, moral or not, illegal drugs are very profitable.  The drugs lords aren't about to give up those revenues when all they have to do is buy and imbed elected officials who will guarantee a safe, secure and closed cash market for illegal drugs.  They chase the end users and neighborhood punks instead of the transnational drug lords.  Why?  Because it reads well in the local newspapers without disturbing their overlords.
       
      It's not a moral debate of drugs, although Libs love to chase themselves in circular arguments over morality instead of shifting the focus to the abuse of money and power in government--a debate that never happens.  Still, there are those who cling to the impossible dream of out shouting the power and money of organized crime married to organized government. 
       
      History is kind to us muddled masses, because without us there would be nothing to harvest nor sheep to fleece.  We can model ourselves by the laws of oscillation or even theoretical mathematics, but I think the laws of biology are a better fit.  Take the ants and aphids for example. The ant won't destroy his little aphid neighbors, instead he farms them to be harvested as he pleases.
       
      On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:35:06 -0700 "Guy McLendon" <guy@...> writes:
      >
      >
      Everyone,
      >
      > There's a mathematical idea that one studies in
      mechanical
      > engineering that
      > seems applicable to social
      reform:  vibrations.
      >
      > In order to make social change occur,
      a large amplitude must exist
      > <e.g.,
      > large public outcry
      over some injustice(s)>
      >
      > To gain the large amplitude, one
      must apply a "forcing function"
      > <e.g.,
      > message conveyed
      over broadcast media> to the system <e.g., public
      > opinion>
      > being stimulated.  That forcing function must stimulate the
      system's
      > natural
      > frequency <an issue that resonates> ...
      in order to build the large
      > amplitude.  When you apply a forcing
      function that coincides with a
      > system's
      > natural frequency, the
      amplitude builds to maximum ...
      >
      > Example:  a car is stuck
      in a pot hole, and a little old man
      > attempts to
      > push the car
      out.  One big heave, a single push on the bumper, fails
      > to push
      > the car out.  However, if the little old man "rocks" the car ...
      > giving a
      > little push, waiting for the car to recoil in the
      pothole ... give
      > another
      > little push ... let the car recoil
      further ... tire in the pothole
      > ... give
      > another little push
      ... Only then can the little old man rock the
      > car out of
      > the
      pot hole.  The timing of the old man's push must coincide with
      > the
      > natural frequency of the pothole's geometry.
      >
      > What does
      that have to do with WTPC and the overall
      > freedom-movement?
      >
      > Suppose WTPC focuses only upon the election reform issue ... that
      > issue will
      > certainly resonate with anyone who's ever spend
      hours petitioning to
      > get a
      > non-incumbent party on the
      ballot.  However, Joe Six-pack will
      > probably
      > respond with
      a blank stare ... My point?  The target audience is far
      > too
      > small to bring a legislative majority.
      >
      > Ever heard of
      targeted marketing?
      >
      > Now, suppose we focus on the war-on-drugs
      ... that certainly
      > resonates with
      > anyone who's ever been
      unjustly jailed for drug usage.  However, many
      > of
      > those
      folks have been stripped of the right to vote <not a
      > coincidence,
      I'm
      > sure>.  Seems like a "damped system" if the output we're
      looking for
      > is to
      > vote in an election ... Even if we stimulate
      those citizens who've
      > been
      > released from unjust imprisonment,
      their ability to vote is being
      > stymied.
      > The point there is
      that the "vote" response of such folks is being
      > dampened.
      >
      However, as a new friend of mine educated me ... folks who have been
      >
      > released from prison can very much react to "lobby" response ...
      > even
      > thought their "vote" response is stymied.
      >
      > <PS ... as an aside ... when/if freedom-movement gains power, we
      > should
      > consider restoration of the right to vote to convicts
      who've "paid
      > their
      > due" to society.>
      >
      > In
      order to win a legislative majority on many issues that need
      > attention,
      a
      > majority of pro-freedom office-holders must first be holding office.
      >  I'm
      > thinking the freedom movement's first order of
      business is to
      > identify those
      > issues that can be leveraged to
      gain a legislative majority.
      >
      > Suppose we focus on all those
      folks who were lied to about why the
      > US went
      > to war in Iraq,
      and have sons, daughters, friends or neighbors
      > who've been
      >
      wounded or killed to fight in this undeclared war ....  Those folks
      > vote,
      > they've not had their right to vote unjustly stripped
      away, and
      > there's a
      > bunch of them.
      >
      > [PS ... as
      an aside ... it sickens me to have an exchange with a
      > citizen
      >
      whose child is fighting in the Middle East, and I convey that I
      > believe
      that
      > child is fighting for purposes other than for "freedom". 
      It's got
      > to be
      > painful for a parent of a child fighting there
      to consider their
      > child may
      > lose their life for some other
      reason.]
      >
      > "Violation of the US Constitution" as an issue
      certainly SHOULD have
      > broad
      > appeal ... and, it may depending
      upon how the packaged is wrapped. 
      > However,
      > just by
      itself, Joe Six-pack is probably not gonna have the
      > government's
      > psy-op brainwash undone merely by hearing academic constitutional
      > clarifications.  Somehow, we need to wrap the Constitution-topic
      in
      > an
      > emotional wrapper in order for it to resonate.
      >
      > A winning campaign needs to develop a series of "one-two punches"
      > [cliché
      > from boxing sport] ... For example, maybe the
      war-on-drugs issue
      > won't win
      > electoral success at the ballot
      box.  However, a large block of
      > citizens who
      > spent time
      unjustly for drug possession charges may somehow
      > rally/lobby
      >
      around some subset of the "Constitution topic" ... in a way that
      > would
      > elicit a voting response from the countless Joe Six-pack's out there
      > ...
      >
      > The neo-cons have a deadly grip on American
      politics ... somehow,
      > the chosen
      > "Constitution-topic" probably
      needs to communicate to the
      > evangelical
      > movement some aspect
      about how cherished ideals have been betrayed
      > by the
      >
      neo-cons.  For instance, many citizens have lost friends, or
      >
      children of
      > friends, to an undeclared war in Iraq.  It's pretty
      clear the
      > Congress never
      > had the power to delegate the
      responsibility to declare war to the
      > President, and yet they did. 
      If we can somehow turn evangelical
      > Christian
      > sentiment into a
      massive feeling of indignation over having been
      > betrayed,
      > then
      we may build the type of amplitude that I'm attempting to
      >
      describe.
      >
      > Perhaps, if the national outcry *** over the loss of
      ~2000 young
      > boys &
      > girls together with maybe 10,000
      wounded *** results in a
      > large-amplitude,
      > tsunami-sized
      backlash that allows the citizenry to regain control
      > of our
      >
      government ... then, perhaps those kids may have not lost their
      > lives
      in
      > vain ... perhaps, only then, will their lives really have been lost
      > in the
      > cause of freedom.
      >
      > In all the above, do
      the ideas suggest I'm drinking Drano, or just
      > whistling
      >
      Dixie?
      >
      > Respectfully yours,
      > Guy McLendon
      >
      href="http://www.libertycoalition.us/">www.libertycoalition.us
      >
      > PS ...  I realize the polls there at WTPC are not totally final,
      but
      > I'm
      > very glad the vote is heavily favoring this: cooperate
      with existing
      >
      > freedom-movement organizations, and do not
      attempt to create yet
      > another 3rd
      > party.  While WTPC
      works to help all freedom-movement organizations,
      > you
      > have my
      full support.  I'm looking forward to seeing an update to
      > the
      > group's Yahoo Group description.
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Chuck Seberg
      Thomas Tancredo, a Lib-leaning House Republican, gave a push to an issue that seems to resonate readily. He reported the Mexican Army is assisting in the
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
        Thomas Tancredo, a Lib-leaning House Republican, gave a push to an issue that seems to resonate readily. He reported the Mexican Army is assisting in the foreign invasion of our southern border by transporting illegals away from the border regions patrolled by the MinuteMen, as it is easier to cross elsewhere.  Vicente Fox is threatening lawsuits if MinuteMen injure or kill Mexican citizens.  It's still early, but if this issue continues to grow it might be a defining issue in the next election.
         
        How does this rank as a RLC issue?
        The vibrations are building.
         
        Chuck Seberg
         
         
         
         
      • Bruno Behrend
        In true NeoCon fashion... Why not just invade them, democratize them and take their oil. Next up, Canada... Bruno
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
          In true NeoCon fashion...
           
          Why not just invade them, democratize them and "take" their oil.
           
          Next up, Canada...
           
          Bruno
        • John Pankratz
          Sure. After all, we re good. .........................................
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
            Sure. After all, we're good.

            .........................................


            Bruno Behrend wrote:

            > In true NeoCon fashion...
            >
            > Why not just invade them, democratize them and "take" their oil.
            >
            > Next up, Canada...
            >
            > Bruno
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > **
          • DGHarrison
            I say we support the Minutemen. Border patrol is one of the few legitimate duties of the government, and it s not being done with much success. If anyone
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
              I say we support the Minutemen. Border patrol is one of the few legitimate duties of the government, and it's not being done with much success. If anyone thinks it's okay for people to illegally enter the U.S., then stop complaining and start working to dismantle the Immigration Office. We could save millions while gaining millions while losing millions. What are your priorities?

              Doug

              John Pankratz wrote:
              Sure. After all, we're good.

              .........................................


              Bruno Behrend wrote:

              > In true NeoCon fashion...

              > Why not just invade them, democratize them and "take" their oil.

              > Next up, Canada...

              > Bruno
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > **


            • Dave Nalle
              ... But I like the idea where we line the border with minefields and put green cards and candy in the middle of them. Dave -- Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
                >In true NeoCon fashion...
                >
                >Why not just invade them, democratize them and "take" their oil.

                But I like the idea where we line the border with minefields and put
                green cards and candy in the middle of them.

                Dave
                --

                Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
                http://www.elitistpig.com
              • Dave Nalle
                ... I m all for the Minutemen too. They re behaving very reasonably and they re getting some real results. Dave -- Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 11, 2005
                  >I say we support the Minutemen. Border patrol is one of the few
                  >legitimate duties of the government, and it's not being done with
                  >much success. If anyone thinks it's okay for people to illegally
                  >enter the U.S., then stop complaining and start working to dismantle
                  >the Immigration Office. We could save millions while gaining
                  >millions while losing millions. What are your priorities?

                  I'm all for the Minutemen too. They're behaving very reasonably and
                  they're getting some real results.

                  Dave
                  --

                  Tasty Thoughts from the Elitist Pig
                  http://www.elitistpig.com
                • F Worley
                  I think I can support the minutemen in their attempt to keep illegals out of the US, but I caution that we should be careful not to be seen as being racist.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                    I think I can support the minutemen in their attempt to keep illegals out of the US, but I caution that we should be careful not to be seen as being racist.   Our advesaries will exploit that.
                     
                    I have a hispanic background myself and speak spanish, but I also know that Mexico doesn't treat illegal aliens from the rest of central america the same way they demand Mexicans be treated by the US.
                     
                    Itstead of framing as a critisism of the current administration or failure on the part of government, we could frame it as what it is, volunteer citizens "helping" the government fullfill its constitutional responsibilities.
                     
                    The minutment of old have an untarnished reputation, one we should seek to preserve, not defile.
                     
                    Frank Worley
                    RLC-MS
                     


                    DGHarrison <DGHarrison@...> wrote:
                    I say we support the Minutemen. Border patrol is one of the few legitimate duties of the government, and it's not being done with much success. If anyone thinks it's okay for people to illegally enter the U.S., then stop complaining and start working to dismantle the Immigration Office. We could save millions while gaining millions while losing millions. What are your priorities?

                    Doug

                    John Pankratz wrote:
                    Sure. After all, we're good.

                    .........................................


                    Bruno Behrend wrote:

                    > In true NeoCon fashion...

                    > Why not just invade them, democratize them and "take" their oil.

                    > Next up, Canada...

                    > Bruno
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > **


                  • DGHarrison
                    Agreed. The Minutemen do have an untarnished reputation, and the same thing needs to be maintained for those assisting the government by patrolling our
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                      Agreed. The Minutemen do have an untarnished reputation, and the same
                      thing needs to be maintained for those assisting the government by
                      patrolling our southern border. For me, it never has been an issue of
                      racism; it has always been an issue of national sovereignty. If we were
                      having the same problems with our northern border (I live in Minnesota),
                      I would join the ranks of the Minutemen defending our state's border,
                      even though the illegal entrants would likely be French Canadians and
                      other Caucasian groups. It is not a race issue -- but it will be made
                      into one by those who oppose the Minutemen, because the Left uses the
                      race issue as its trump card every time. We aren't going to stop that
                      from happening, but we do need to ensure that the men assisting at the
                      border are well-trained and well-informed on the issue.

                      I don't understand how the issue of national sovereignty can be so
                      easily glossed over. You wouldn't see any Asian country (I lived in the
                      Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and Thailand for an aggregate 20
                      years) tolerate border incursions. It's just not done! I am by no means
                      advocating closing our borders. We must continue to operate orderly
                      transitions of people to and from the United States. The emphasis here
                      is on "orderly," which includes the concepts of "lawful," "legitimate,"
                      "legal," "justifiable" and a string of other adjectives having to do
                      with the permissibility of the act.

                      Perhaps we can address Bush's "guest worker" program, but not until
                      everyone agrees to the meaning of the terms associated with "orderly."
                      Leftist are so full of crap, shooting their mouths off all the time and
                      never really trying to solve issues because they need volatile issues in
                      order to keep their emotions high and rhetoric flowing. It's really all
                      they've got, because they don't have any ideas.

                      Doug Harrison
                      Treasurer, RLCMN

                      F Worley wrote:

                      > I think I can support the minutemen in their attempt to keep illegals
                      > out of the US, but I caution that we should be careful not to be seen
                      > as being racist. Our advesaries will exploit that.
                      >
                      > I have a hispanic background myself and speak spanish, but I also know
                      > that Mexico doesn't treat illegal aliens from the rest of central
                      > america the same way they demand Mexicans be treated by the US.
                      >
                      > Itstead of framing as a critisism of the current administration or
                      > failure on the part of government, we could frame it as what it is,
                      > volunteer citizens "helping" the government fullfill its
                      > constitutional responsibilities.
                      >
                      > The minutment of old have an untarnished reputation, one we should
                      > seek to preserve, not defile.
                      >
                      > Frank Worley
                      > RLC-MS
                    • Chuck Seberg
                      OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let s get on to strategy; 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                        OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                         
                        1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                        2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                        3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                        4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                         
                        But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                         
                        Chuck Seberg 
                      • Jeff Palmer
                        ... strategy; ... Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse him? In a word, HELLNO! ... philosophical leg to stand on. You decide. Liberty, including freedom of
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                          Message
                          > OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy; 
                           
                          > 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him? 
                           
                          In a word, HELLNO!
                           
                          > 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide. 
                           
                          Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the correct "philosophical leg".  However, given our lack of unanimity on this issue, we should choose to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.

                          Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                           * * *
                          Quote of the Week:  “Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the cry of grave national emergency.  Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.” -- Gen. Douglas MacArthur


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                        • John Pankratz
                          Speaking of engineering, It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                            Speaking of engineering,

                            It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one
                            variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                            numerous dependent variables. Changing one variable inevitably
                            introduces instability that results in the system settling
                            down to a new state with many other factors having changed as well.

                            If we allow freedom at our borders we also have to do away with the
                            welfare state, end the so-called "war on drugs"
                            and stop interfering with the affairs of other sovereign nations (in
                            other words stop making enemies.)

                            All the above are libertarian principles. The libertarian philosophy is
                            of a single piece. You cannot implement part of it
                            without implementing all of it. To do otherwise is to force instability
                            and cause other, undesireable changes,
                            not the least of which would be invasion by muslim terrorists and drug
                            smugglers.
                            ......

                            I did have another thought. Although I disapprove very much the Mexican
                            government's role in the informal
                            invasion we are experiencing, and I do not rejoice in the present
                            situation in the least, I do think we may be witnessing
                            an example of what happens when enough individuals defy the law so that
                            government enforcement breaks down.
                            It reminds me of a more positive example when Yeltsin climbed on a tank
                            and defied the Soviet army, to the cheers
                            of the crowds. If only the American people as a whole had such gumption
                            in demaning a return to constitutional government..

                            ........................




                            Jeff Palmer wrote:

                            >> OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get
                            > on to strategy;
                            >
                            >> 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the
                            > Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse him?
                            >
                            > In a word, HELLNO!
                            >
                            >> 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a
                            > philosophical leg to stand on. You decide.
                            >
                            > Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the correct
                            > "philosophical leg". However, given our lack of unanimity on this
                            > issue, we should choose to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.
                            >
                            > Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                            > * * *
                            > Quote of the Week: “Our government has kept us in a perpetual state
                            > of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with
                            > the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some
                            > terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going
                            > to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.” -- Gen.
                            > Douglas MacArthur
                            >
                            >
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                          • DGHarrison
                            It is good to think in terms of liberty, but I think we really must avoid utopian concepts of liberty. If America were to enact every conceivable libertarian
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                              It is good to think in terms of liberty, but I think we really must avoid utopian concepts of liberty. If America were to enact every conceivable libertarian principle across the board, there is no guarantee that anyone else in the world would play by our rules. In fact, we know the rest of the world will not play by our rules. They prove it daily. And any utopian shift to open borders, etc., will have the hordes taking advantage of us in new ways. The destructive waves of Huns and Khans that swept across Europe and Asia depended upon "civilization" to drop its guard. "Hey, look at us! We're civilized. We don't need no stinking broad swords. Let us pound our weapons into ploughs and reap the dividends of peace throughout the land!" There were many "peace dividends" throughout human history, and all were spent badly, at the cost of the civilizations themselves. Today, we only read about great civilizations from the dusty archaeological relics that were not destroyed by the hordes. I think we're stuck in guarded liberty, or we have no liberty at all. Ding ... dong ... is everyone awake now?

                              Those who still think open borders are such a great idea, let's say you leave your houses and vehicles unlocked from now on. Next time you have a wedding feast, or a barbecue, or an open bar for your job promotion, just put an announcement in the paper telling everyone that you won't be checking the guest list or invitations. Let me know how that works out for ya.

                              Doug Harrison
                              Minnesota

                              John Pankratz wrote:
                              Speaking of engineering,
                              
                              It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one 
                              variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                              numerous dependent variables.  Changing one variable inevitably 
                              introduces instability that results in the system settling
                              down to a new state with many other factors having changed as well.
                              
                              If we allow freedom at our borders we also have to do away with the 
                              welfare state, end the so-called "war on drugs"
                               and stop interfering with the affairs of other sovereign nations (in 
                              other words stop making enemies.)
                              
                              All the above are libertarian principles. The libertarian philosophy is 
                              of a single piece. You cannot implement part of it
                              without implementing all of it. To do otherwise is to force  instability 
                              and cause other, undesireable changes,
                              not the least of which would be invasion by muslim terrorists and drug 
                              smugglers.
                              ......
                              
                              I did have another thought. Although I disapprove very much the Mexican 
                              government's role in the informal
                              invasion we are experiencing, and I do not rejoice in the present 
                              situation in the least, I do think we may be witnessing
                              an example of what happens when enough individuals defy the law so that 
                              government enforcement breaks down.
                              It reminds me of a more positive example when Yeltsin climbed on a tank 
                              and defied the Soviet army, to the cheers
                              of the crowds.  If only the American people as a whole had such gumption 
                              in demaning a return to constitutional government..
                              
                              ........................
                              
                              
                              
                              
                              Jeff Palmer wrote:
                              
                                
                              OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get 
                                    
                              on to strategy; 
                               
                                  
                              1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the 
                                    
                              Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him? 
                               
                              In a word, HELLNO!
                               
                                  
                              4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a 
                                    
                              philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide. 
                               
                              Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the correct 
                              "philosophical leg".  However, given our lack of unanimity on this 
                              issue, we should choose to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.
                              
                              Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                               * * *
                              Quote of the Week:  “Our government has kept us in a perpetual state 
                              of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with 
                              the cry of grave national emergency.  Always there has been some 
                              terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going 
                              to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.” -- Gen. 
                              Douglas MacArthur
                              
                              
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                            • blood_pasta
                              Why is it that the freedom of movement applies only collectively, but not individually? That is, why is it I have the right to live in other countries
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                Why is it that the "freedom of movement" applies only collectively,
                                but not individually?

                                That is, why is it I have the right to live in other countries
                                without their permission, but not the right to pitch a tent in other
                                peoples' backyards without permission?

                                Realistically, there's no ethically salient libertarian position on
                                immigration. Either we foist open borders upon the masses (against
                                their will) and allow them to be overrun with all the problems that
                                immigrants bring with them from the Third World, or we seal the
                                borders so that business has to move for cheap labor.

                                For the record, I don't consider myself a libertarian, but I do
                                consider myself a libertarian-leaning conservative. One of my big
                                beefs with the LP is that it opposes the UN because it liquidates the
                                rights of nations, but then the LP goes on to support various other
                                institutions that liquidate the rights of nations, such as open
                                borders. Why have borders at all if we're just going to knock them
                                down?

                                Open borders is a big political loser for the LP. The RLC shouldn't
                                touch that issue with a twenty foot pole. I can say with relatively
                                certainty that immigration can be in 2008 what welfare reform was in
                                1992 -- whoever runs farthest to the right can win.

                                --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Palmer" <jap@h...> wrote:
                                > > OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's
                                get on to
                                > strategy;
                                >
                                > > 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the
                                > Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse him?
                                >
                                > In a word, HELLNO!
                                >
                                > > 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have
                                a
                                > philosophical leg to stand on. You decide.
                                >
                                > Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the
                                correct "philosophical
                                > leg". However, given our lack of unanimity on this issue, we
                                should choose
                                > to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.
                                > Jeff Palmer - jap@h...
                                > * * *
                                > Quote of the Week: "Our government has kept us in a perpetual
                                state of fear
                                > - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with the
                                cry of
                                > grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil
                                at home
                                > or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if
                                we did not
                                > blindly rally behind it." -- Gen. Douglas MacArthur
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005
                              • Guy McLendon
                                FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there s more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                  FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there's more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to acknowledge Constitutional authorization for border security, and validity of reason to exercise this authority for purposes of protecting public health & national security.
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                  OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                   
                                  1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                                  2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                                  3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                                  4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                                   
                                  But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                   
                                  Chuck Seberg 
                                • Guy McLendon
                                  John, I just read an article titled Critique of Libertarianism ... written by a Green Party activist. The article is pretty convincing on the point that
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                    John,

                                    I just read an article titled "Critique of Libertarianism" ... written by a
                                    Green Party activist. The article is pretty convincing on the point that
                                    it's not really possible to fully implement a fully "free society" ... just
                                    as it's thermodynamically impossible to build an ideal "Carnot Engine".
                                    That's why the Constitution, in its wisdom, has some non-libertarian
                                    features.

                                    I very much like your point about lack of independence between variables in
                                    complex systems ... such ideas are very familar to process control
                                    engineers, and probably to physicians. Sadly ... the professionals who
                                    operate the government are, I'm guessing, less attuned to such complex
                                    interactions.

                                    Guy

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "John Pankratz" <pankratz@...>
                                    To: <RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:19 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good
                                    Vibrations


                                    >
                                    > Speaking of engineering,
                                    >
                                    > It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one
                                    > variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                                    > numerous dependent variables. Changing one variable inevitably
                                    > introduces instability that results in the system settling
                                    > down to a new state with many other factors having changed as well.
                                    >
                                    > If we allow freedom at our borders we also have to do away with the
                                    > welfare state, end the so-called "war on drugs"
                                    > and stop interfering with the affairs of other sovereign nations (in
                                    > other words stop making enemies.)
                                  • F Worley
                                    I don t believe in open boarders. Never have. As you said other elements of libertarianism must be in place and you rightly point out they are not. However,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                      I don't believe in open boarders.  Never have.  As you said other elements of libertarianism must be in place and you rightly point out they are not.
                                       
                                      However, I cannot support open borders unless other nations do the same.  The Mexico issue is truly a perfect example of the world's hipocrasy.  America is held to one standard and the rest of the world to another.
                                       
                                      Frank

                                      John Pankratz <pankratz@...> wrote:

                                      Speaking of engineering,

                                      It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one
                                      variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                                      numerous dependent variables. Changing one variable inevitably
                                      introduces instability that results in the system settling
                                      down to a new state with many other factors having changed as well.

                                      If we allow freedom at our borders we also have to do away with the
                                      welfare state, end the so-called "war on drugs"
                                      and stop interfering with the affairs of other sovereign nations (in
                                      other words stop making enemies.)

                                      All the above are libertarian principles. The libertarian philosophy is
                                      of a single piece. You cannot implement part of it
                                      without implementing all of it. To do otherwise is to force instability
                                      and cause other, undesireable changes,
                                      not the least of which would be invasion by muslim terrorists and drug
                                      smugglers.
                                      ......

                                      I did have another thought. Although I disapprove very much the Mexican
                                      government's role in the informal
                                      invasion we are experiencing, and I do not rejoice in the present
                                      situation in the least, I do think we may be witnessing
                                      an example of what happens when enough individuals defy the law so that
                                      government enforcement breaks down.
                                      It reminds me of a more positive example when Yeltsin climbed on a tank
                                      and defied the Soviet army, to the cheers
                                      of the crowds. If only the American people as a whole had such gumption
                                      in demaning a return to constitutional government..

                                      ........................




                                      Jeff Palmer wrote:

                                      >> OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get
                                      > on to strategy;
                                      >
                                      >> 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the
                                      > Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse him?
                                      >
                                      > In a word, HELLNO!
                                      >
                                      >> 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a
                                      > philosophical leg to stand on. You decide.
                                      >
                                      > Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the correct
                                      > "philosophical leg". However, given our lack of unanimity on this
                                      > issue, we should choose to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.
                                      >
                                      > Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                                      > * * *
                                      > Quote of the Week: �Our government has kept us in a perpetual state
                                      > of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with
                                      > the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some
                                      > terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going
                                      > to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.� -- Gen.
                                      > Douglas MacArthur
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                      >
                                      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RLC-Action/
                                      >
                                      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                      > Service .
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
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                                      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                      > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005
                                      >



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                                    • F Worley
                                      If the LP would get a sane foriegn policy, borders included, I might actually consider rejoining them. No offense to my friends in the RLC but between budget
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                        If the LP would get a sane foriegn policy, borders included, I might actually consider rejoining them.
                                         
                                        No offense to my friends in the RLC but between budget deficits, Terri Shiavo and other issues, I've just about had it with the GOP and the DEMS ain't getting my vote.
                                         
                                        But I digress, where do we stand on this issue of the Minute Men?
                                         
                                        Frank

                                        Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                                        FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there's more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to acknowledge Constitutional authorization for border security, and validity of reason to exercise this authority for purposes of protecting public health & national security.
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                        OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                         
                                        1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                                        2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                                        3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                                        4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                                         
                                        But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                         
                                        Chuck Seberg 
                                      • F Worley
                                        Let me correct myself, I might not support open borders even if other nations did the same, I just would be more willing to consider it if that were the case
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 12, 2005
                                          Let me correct myself, I might not support open borders even if other nations did the same, I just would be more willing to consider it if that were the case and it isn't.
                                           
                                          Frank

                                          F Worley <worley_f2003@...> wrote:
                                          I don't believe in open boarders.  Never have.  As you said other elements of libertarianism must be in place and you rightly point out they are not.
                                           
                                          However, I cannot support open borders unless other nations do the same.  The Mexico issue is truly a perfect example of the world's hipocrasy.  America is held to one standard and the rest of the world to another.
                                           
                                          Frank

                                          John Pankratz <pankratz@...> wrote:

                                          Speaking of engineering,

                                          It should be obvious to all that you do not independently change one
                                          variable in a complex system without necessarily changing
                                          numerous dependent variables. Changing one variable inevitably
                                          introduces instability that results in the system settling
                                          down to a new state with many other factors having changed as well.

                                          If we allow freedom at our borders we also have to do away with the
                                          welfare state, end the so-called "war on drugs"
                                          and stop interfering with the affairs of other sovereign nations (in
                                          other words stop making enemies.)

                                          All the above are libertarian principles. The libertarian philosophy is
                                          of a single piece. You cannot implement part of it
                                          without implementing all of it. To do otherwise is to force instability
                                          and cause other, undesireable changes,
                                          not the least of which would be invasion by muslim terrorists and drug
                                          smugglers.
                                          ......

                                          I did have another thought. Although I disapprove very much the Mexican
                                          government's role in the informal
                                          invasion we are experiencing, and I do not rejoice in the present
                                          situation in the least, I do think we may be witnessing
                                          an example of what happens when enough individuals defy the law so that
                                          government enforcement breaks down.
                                          It reminds me of a more positive example when Yeltsin climbed on a tank
                                          and defied the Soviet army, to the cheers
                                          of the crowds. If only the American people as a whole had such gumption
                                          in demaning a return to constitutional government..

                                          ........................




                                          Jeff Palmer wrote:

                                          >> OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get
                                          > on to strategy;
                                          >
                                          >> 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the
                                          > Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse him?
                                          >
                                          > In a word, HELLNO!
                                          >
                                          >> 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a
                                          > philosophical leg to stand on. You decide.
                                          >
                                          > Liberty, including freedom of movement, is always the correct
                                          > "philosophical leg". However, given our lack of unanimity on this
                                          > issue, we should choose to avoid focusing on this issue altogether.
                                          >
                                          > Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                                          > * * *
                                          > Quote of the Week: �Our government has kept us in a perpetual state
                                          > of fear - kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor - with
                                          > the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some
                                          > terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going
                                          > to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it.� -- Gen.
                                          > Douglas MacArthur
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                          >
                                          > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RLC-Action/
                                          >
                                          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > RLC-Action-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                          > Service .
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                          > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                          > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005
                                          >



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                                        • Alan R. Weiss
                                          Study Karl Rove, and attack him the way he has attacked liberty. One of Karl s main tactics, used successful with Bush campaigns in Texas and then again in the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 13, 2005
                                            Study Karl Rove, and attack him the way he has
                                            attacked liberty.

                                            One of Karl's main tactics, used successful with Bush
                                            campaigns in Texas and then again in the Bush for
                                            President bids, was to focus on a very small number of
                                            issues, and hammer away on those. Another tactic was
                                            to attack the STRENGTH of the other guy - not their
                                            weaknesses. Attack McCain on his support for Vietnam
                                            vets. Attack Kerry for his war record. Attack Ann
                                            Richards for her inclusion of gays into society. Turn
                                            the strength to sawdust, so to speak.

                                            It sems to me the linchpin is Karl Rove, and NOT the
                                            "neo-cons" (many are being sidelined ... Wolfowitz to
                                            the World Bank is an example. The Neo-cons were never
                                            "in control", they were just the proxy for Rove and
                                            Bush so that attention was paid to them).

                                            Attack Rove. The very basis of the Republican Party
                                            is at stake. The memory of Goldwater is fading with
                                            time. We must not let that fade. Ron Paul is getting
                                            older, bless him, and we need to "step on the gas" and
                                            acceleate the battle. Time is growing short.

                                            On immigration: the Zetas in Nuevo Laredo are a
                                            paramilitary operation kidnapping Americans from
                                            Laredo who visit Mexico. Immigration is a key
                                            weakness in the Bush-Rove strategy, a linchpin.
                                            Attacking them on this is smart politics, especially
                                            since Bush-Rove is cultivating immigrants as voters.
                                            However, polls show that Mexican-Americans and
                                            Hispanics in general who are citizens are - surprise!
                                            - anti-immigration!

                                            Libertarians are for the free-flow of individuals.
                                            Immigrants who come to the USA to work and who value
                                            the Bill of Rights are to be applauded. But just as
                                            we have NO love or sympathy for Americans who would
                                            abort the Bill of Rights, neither should we be blinded
                                            to immigrants who have no idea what the Bill of Rights
                                            means. Our criteria is this: are you a 'new real
                                            American', fully briefed on liberty and cherishing
                                            thereof, or are you just another problem?

                                            Alan

                                            --- Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:

                                            > Everyone,
                                            >
                                            > There's a mathematical idea that one studies in
                                            > mechanical engineering that
                                            > seems applicable to social reform: vibrations.
                                            >
                                            > In order to make social change occur, a large
                                            > amplitude must exist <e.g.,
                                            > large public outcry over some injustice(s)>
                                            >
                                            > To gain the large amplitude, one must apply a
                                            > "forcing function" <e.g.,
                                            > message conveyed over broadcast media> to the system
                                            > <e.g., public opinion>
                                            > being stimulated. That forcing function must
                                            > stimulate the system's natural
                                            > frequency <an issue that resonates> ... in order to
                                            > build the large
                                            > amplitude. When you apply a forcing function that
                                            > coincides with a system's
                                            > natural frequency, the amplitude builds to maximum
                                            > ...
                                            >
                                            > Example: a car is stuck in a pot hole, and a little
                                            > old man attempts to
                                            > push the car out. One big heave, a single push on
                                            > the bumper, fails to push
                                            > the car out. However, if the little old man "rocks"
                                            > the car ... giving a
                                            > little push, waiting for the car to recoil in the
                                            > pothole ... give another
                                            > little push ... let the car recoil further ... tire
                                            > in the pothole ... give
                                            > another little push ... Only then can the little old
                                            > man rock the car out of
                                            > the pot hole. The timing of the old man's push must
                                            > coincide with the
                                            > natural frequency of the pothole's geometry.
                                            >
                                            > What does that have to do with WTPC and the overall
                                            > freedom-movement?
                                            >
                                            > Suppose WTPC focuses only upon the election reform
                                            > issue ... that issue will
                                            > certainly resonate with anyone who's ever spend
                                            > hours petitioning to get a
                                            > non-incumbent party on the ballot. However, Joe
                                            > Six-pack will probably
                                            > respond with a blank stare ... My point? The target
                                            > audience is far too
                                            > small to bring a legislative majority.
                                            >
                                            > Ever heard of targeted marketing?
                                            >
                                            > Now, suppose we focus on the war-on-drugs ... that
                                            > certainly resonates with
                                            > anyone who's ever been unjustly jailed for drug
                                            > usage. However, many of
                                            > those folks have been stripped of the right to vote
                                            > <not a coincidence, I'm
                                            > sure>. Seems like a "damped system" if the output
                                            > we're looking for is to
                                            > vote in an election ... Even if we stimulate those
                                            > citizens who've been
                                            > released from unjust imprisonment, their ability to
                                            > vote is being stymied.
                                            > The point there is that the "vote" response of such
                                            > folks is being dampened.
                                            > However, as a new friend of mine educated me ...
                                            > folks who have been
                                            > released from prison can very much react to "lobby"
                                            > response ... even
                                            > thought their "vote" response is stymied.
                                            >
                                            > <PS ... as an aside ... when/if freedom-movement
                                            > gains power, we should
                                            > consider restoration of the right to vote to
                                            > convicts who've "paid their
                                            > due" to society.>
                                            >
                                            > In order to win a legislative majority on many
                                            > issues that need attention, a
                                            > majority of pro-freedom office-holders must first be
                                            > holding office. I'm
                                            > thinking the freedom movement's first order of
                                            > business is to identify those
                                            > issues that can be leveraged to gain a legislative
                                            > majority.
                                            >
                                            > Suppose we focus on all those folks who were lied to
                                            > about why the US went
                                            > to war in Iraq, and have sons, daughters, friends or
                                            > neighbors who've been
                                            > wounded or killed to fight in this undeclared war
                                            > .... Those folks vote,
                                            > they've not had their right to vote unjustly
                                            > stripped away, and there's a
                                            > bunch of them.
                                            >
                                            > [PS ... as an aside ... it sickens me to have an
                                            > exchange with a citizen
                                            > whose child is fighting in the Middle East, and I
                                            > convey that I believe that
                                            > child is fighting for purposes other than for
                                            > "freedom". It's got to be
                                            > painful for a parent of a child fighting there to
                                            > consider their child may
                                            > lose their life for some other reason.]
                                            >
                                            > "Violation of the US Constitution" as an issue
                                            > certainly SHOULD have broad
                                            > appeal ... and, it may depending upon how the
                                            > packaged is wrapped. However,
                                            > just by itself, Joe Six-pack is probably not gonna
                                            > have the government's
                                            > psy-op brainwash undone merely by hearing academic
                                            > constitutional
                                            > clarifications. Somehow, we need to wrap the
                                            > Constitution-topic in an
                                            > emotional wrapper in order for it to resonate.
                                            >
                                            > A winning campaign needs to develop a series of
                                            > "one-two punches" [clich�
                                            > from boxing sport] ... For example, maybe the
                                            > war-on-drugs issue won't win
                                            > electoral success at the ballot box. However, a
                                            > large block of citizens who
                                            > spent time unjustly for drug possession charges may
                                            > somehow rally/lobby
                                            > around some subset of the "Constitution topic" ...
                                            > in a way that would
                                            > elicit a voting response from the countless Joe
                                            > Six-pack's out there ...
                                            >
                                            > The neo-cons have a deadly grip on American politics
                                            > ... somehow, the chosen
                                            > "Constitution-topic" probably needs to communicate
                                            > to the evangelical
                                            > movement some aspect about how cherished ideals have
                                            > been betrayed by the
                                            > neo-cons. For instance, many citizens have lost
                                            > friends, or children of
                                            > friends, to an undeclared war in Iraq. It's pretty
                                            > clear the Congress never
                                            > had the power to delegate the responsibility to
                                            > declare war to the
                                            > President, and yet they did. If we can somehow turn
                                            > evangelical Christian
                                            > sentiment into a massive feeling of indignation over
                                            > having been betrayed,
                                            > then we may build the type of amplitude that I'm
                                            > attempting to describe.
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps, if the national outcry *** over the loss of
                                            > ~2000 young boys &
                                            > girls together with maybe 10,000 wounded *** results
                                            > in a large-amplitude,
                                            > tsunami-sized backlash that allows the citizenry to
                                            > regain control of our
                                            > government ... then, perhaps those kids may have not
                                            > lost their lives in
                                            > vain ... perhaps, only then, will their lives really
                                            > have been lost in the
                                            > cause of freedom.
                                            >
                                            > In all the above, do the ideas suggest I'm drinking
                                            > Drano, or just whistling
                                            > Dixie?
                                            >
                                            > Respectfully yours,
                                            > Guy McLendon
                                            > www.libertycoalition.us
                                            >
                                            > PS ... I realize the polls there at WTPC are not
                                            > totally final, but I'm
                                            > very glad the vote is heavily favoring this:
                                            > cooperate with existing
                                            > freedom-movement organizations, and do not attempt
                                            > to create yet another 3rd
                                            > party. While WTPC works to help all
                                            > freedom-movement organizations, you
                                            > have my full support. I'm looking forward to seeing
                                            > an update to the
                                            > group's Yahoo Group description.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >




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                                          • Ray Holtorf
                                            I did a non-scientific poll on border security within on of our RLC groups not too long ago and found out securing our borders - in opposition to traditional
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 13, 2005
                                              I did a non-scientific poll on border security within
                                              on of our RLC groups not too long ago and found out
                                              securing our borders - in opposition to traditional
                                              libertarian dogma - was VERY popular. FORTUNATELY we
                                              are not a democratic organization, and our adherence
                                              to the principle of forwarding libertarianism within
                                              the Republican Party SHOULD prevent us from making
                                              securing our borders a priority issue - no matter how
                                              much I personally agree!

                                              Tancredo seems to believe in operating the government
                                              through religious tenets rather than Constitutionally
                                              limited ones. Personally, I don't think he is an
                                              option - I think his liberty index rating is very poor
                                              on social issues, and not all that great on economic.

                                              My view on this as a Presidential issue in '08 is that
                                              there will be a MUCH larger unwashed and disaffected
                                              middle in the '08 election. The parties will move even
                                              farther left and right to secure their base, and what
                                              happens in the middle could be DAMN interesting.

                                              Ray


                                              --- Chuck Seberg <pusherprop3@...> wrote:
                                              > OK, several have given their opinions on the
                                              > MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                              >
                                              > 1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this
                                              > issue into the Whitehouse. Would the RLC endorse
                                              > him?
                                              > 2) Every state has this problem. Let's get to
                                              > networking with groups that are working on this
                                              > issue in our states.
                                              > 3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to
                                              > handle this issue. Can the RLC forge new ground
                                              > here?
                                              > 4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we
                                              > don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.
                                              > You decide.
                                              >
                                              > But at least you have to start thinking in these
                                              > terms. Guy's first email talked about issues that
                                              > resonate with a broad swath of the public. This
                                              > might not be something that we can use, but the
                                              > issue is becoming red hot. It's starting to
                                              > resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                              >
                                              > Chuck Seberg

                                              Ray HoltorfDirector, National Board, Republican Liberty Caucus (www.rlc.org)Ray@.../Ray"Promoters of big government programs should note that there are no famous quotes from brilliant people extolling increasing the size or power of government."



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                                            • bill Jambura
                                              Frank, My sentiments exactly about the LP. The Republicans are the equal opposites of the Democrats, but no less damaging to our Constitution, liberty and
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 13, 2005

                                                Frank,

                                                 

                                                My sentiments exactly about the LP.  The Republicans are the equal opposites of the Democrats, but no less damaging to our Constitution, liberty and freedoms. 

                                                 

                                                In this dialogue of e-mails I, and many of you, may have received the e-mail cautioning us against looking like we hate Hispanics if we defend our borders.  That is an excellent diversion.  Here's an answer to the bigotry vs. national sovereignty debate.

                                                 

                                                The best way to defend our border without being bigots is to do what we’ve done all over the world—land mines. 

                                                 

                                                1. We’ve put them on every other continent of our world with great success—because they are an extremely effective perimeter defense. 
                                                2. They don't require feeding or a massive payroll to manage them.  Nor can they be bribed.
                                                3. They are nondiscriminatory—they don't care about race, religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation, and whatever other bemoanings bleeding heart liberals can come up with.  They just don't like being stepped on.
                                                4. They will not harm you unless you step on them.  And you have to go out of your way to step on them.  It’s freedom of choice.   If you don’t want to get blown up, don’t go there; or you can choose to achieve upward mobility on a one-time trip.
                                                5. And, to be a good neighbor, let’s tell Mr. Fox to update his illegal immigration pamphlet so that his swarming hoards know that they may become commingled with desert dirt if they try to sneak across our borders and dance in our mine fields.
                                                6.  And, to be a good neighbor, we can put up signs (in all the romance languages of course) to identify the first several miles of American soil along the Mexican border as a: “NO GO ZONE—Recommend you use a controlled entry point for your safe crossing”. 
                                                 
                                                On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:19:18 -0700 (PDT) F Worley <> writes:
                                                If the LP would get a sane foriegn policy, borders included, I might actually consider rejoining them.
                                                 
                                                No offense to my friends in the RLC but between budget deficits, Terri Shiavo and other issues, I've just about had it with the GOP and the DEMS ain't getting my vote.
                                                 
                                                But I digress, where do we stand on this issue of the Minute Men?
                                                 
                                                Frank

                                                Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                                                FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there's more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to acknowledge Constitutional authorization for border security, and validity of reason to exercise this authority for purposes of protecting public health & national security.
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                                OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                                 
                                                1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                                                2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                                                3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                                                4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                                                 
                                                But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                                 
                                                Chuck Seberg 
                                                 
                                              • F Worley
                                                Actually Bill, I was the one that cautioned about the race issue. It was not intended as a diversion in anyway, just a caution as I work it the business of
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 13, 2005
                                                  Actually Bill,
                                                   
                                                  I was the one that cautioned about the race issue.  It was not intended as a diversion in anyway, just a caution as I work it the business of crafting messages and can see how easily a message can be misconstrured.  (I've made the mistake myself a number of times).
                                                   
                                                  In our minds, the landmine idea makes perfect sense.  A simple matter of choice.  But we have to remember that the rest of the world, and the rest of the nation, does not think like we do.
                                                   
                                                  If we placed landmines it would kill innocent children who have not freely chosen to cross the boarder, and therefore, it would not accomplish our aim.
                                                   
                                                  Patroling the boarders is the right idea, but we as a group, should also make our voices heard.  An easy way to do that is to hammer away at the fact the policies of the Mexican government towards illegal aliens, US visitors and others are inconsistant with their demands on the U.S.
                                                   
                                                  We are a nation of immigrants and should continue to welcome those, LOUDLY that come legally, and denounce those who do not, and the governments that sponsor them.
                                                   
                                                  Frank Worley


                                                  bill Jambura <jambura@...> wrote:

                                                  Frank,

                                                   

                                                  My sentiments exactly about the LP.  The Republicans are the equal opposites of the Democrats, but no less damaging to our Constitution, liberty and freedoms. 

                                                   

                                                  In this dialogue of e-mails I, and many of you, may have received the e-mail cautioning us against looking like we hate Hispanics if we defend our borders.  That is an excellent diversion.  Here's an answer to the bigotry vs. national sovereignty debate.

                                                   

                                                  The best way to defend our border without being bigots is to do what we�ve done all over the world�land mines. 

                                                   

                                                  1. We�ve put them on every other continent of our world with great success�because they are an extremely effective perimeter defense. 
                                                  2. They don't require feeding or a massive payroll to manage them.  Nor can they be bribed.
                                                  3. They are nondiscriminatory�they don't care about race, religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation, and whatever other bemoanings bleeding heart liberals can come up with.  They just don't like being stepped on.
                                                  4. They will not harm you unless you step on them.  And you have to go out of your way to step on them.  It�s freedom of choice.   If you don�t want to get blown up, don�t go there; or you can choose to achieve upward mobility on a one-time trip.
                                                  5. And, to be a good neighbor, let�s tell Mr. Fox to update his illegal immigration pamphlet so that his swarming hoards know that they may become commingled with desert dirt if they try to sneak across our borders and dance in our mine fields.
                                                  6.  And, to be a good neighbor, we can put up signs (in all the romance languages of course) to identify the first several miles of American soil along the Mexican border as a: �NO GO ZONE�Recommend you use a controlled entry point for your safe crossing�. 
                                                   
                                                  On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:19:18 -0700 (PDT) F Worley <> writes:
                                                  If the LP would get a sane foriegn policy, borders included, I might actually consider rejoining them.
                                                   
                                                  No offense to my friends in the RLC but between budget deficits, Terri Shiavo and other issues, I've just about had it with the GOP and the DEMS ain't getting my vote.
                                                   
                                                  But I digress, where do we stand on this issue of the Minute Men?
                                                   
                                                  Frank

                                                  Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                                                  FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there's more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to acknowledge Constitutional authorization for border security, and validity of reason to exercise this authority for purposes of protecting public health & national security.
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                                  OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                                   
                                                  1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                                                  2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                                                  3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                                                  4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                                                   
                                                  But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                                   
                                                  Chuck Seberg 
                                                   
                                                • Jeff Palmer
                                                  This a topic is better suited for RLC-Discuss. Jeff Palmer - jap@highstream.net * * * Quote of the Week: “Washington is a city of southern efficiency and
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 13, 2005
                                                    Message
                                                    This a topic is better suited for RLC-Discuss.

                                                    Jeff Palmer - jap@...
                                                     * * *
                                                    Quote of the Week:  “Washington is a city of southern efficiency and northern charm.” -- John F. Kennedy 

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: F Worley [mailto:worley_f2003@...]
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:03 PM
                                                    To: bill Jambura; sfgresh@...; rex2wheeler@...; jeff@...; indmtn@...; Republican-Liberty@...; westmiller@...; rlc@...; pusherprop3@...; alanrweiss78726@...; blood_pasta@...
                                                    Cc: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                                    Actually Bill, 

                                                    I was the one that cautioned about the race issue.  It was not intended as a diversion in anyway, just a caution as I work it the business of crafting messages and can see how easily a message can be misconstrured.  (I've made the mistake myself a number of times). 

                                                    In our minds, the landmine idea makes perfect sense.  A simple matter of choice.  But we have to remember that the rest of the world, and the rest of the nation, does not think like we do. 

                                                    If we placed landmines it would kill innocent children who have not freely chosen to cross the boarder, and therefore, it would not accomplish our aim. 

                                                    Patroling the boarders is the right idea, but we as a group, should also make our voices heard.  An easy way to do that is to hammer away at the fact the policies of the Mexican government towards illegal aliens, US visitors and others are inconsistant with their demands on the U.S. 

                                                    We are a nation of immigrants and should continue to welcome those, LOUDLY that come legally, and denounce those who do not, and the governments that sponsor them. 

                                                    Frank Worley


                                                    --
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                                                  • bill Jambura
                                                    Frank, The first thing any nation does whether they are at peace, and especially when they are at war, is to secure their borders. America is the first nation
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Apr 14, 2005

                                                      Frank,

                                                       

                                                      The first thing any nation does whether they are at peace, and especially when they are at war, is to secure their borders.  

                                                       

                                                      America is the first nation in history that’s not doing that!  Like it or not, America is deep into two global (world) wars simultaneously—the WW on Terror and the WW on Drugs—where it’s been established that international trafficking in illegal drugs is a major funding source for terrorists.

                                                       

                                                      In any war, innocent civilians suffer much greater loses than the armed combatants. It’s the tragedy of war.  That’s why our Constitution has very strict procedures for how we can go to as a nation.  How our elected officials usurped our Constitution to get us into these good sounding, aimless wars is different debate worth having, but for now, we’re in those world wars nonetheless.  And also, that’s why the Powel Doctrine opposed nation building.  Instead, he called for clearly defined missions (void of mission creep) with a well defined victory criteria and exist strategy.

                                                       

                                                      Let’s compare Iraq to America’s southern border. 

                                                       

                                                      First, Iraq: It’s estimated that over 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians were killed thus far—some in their homes, others at their businesses or on the streets in the cross fire.  They didn’t go out of their way to march cross an international border to get killed.  They simply suffered the consequence of being born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

                                                         

                                                      Now as for America’s southern border: If we secured it with mines (on our side only), only international criminals would go out of their way to cross an international border to dance through a minefield.  In every war, civilians flee away from the front line of battle; they don’t march into it.  We have an international right to secure our borders. Until they are secure, we’ll never know who is coming across our borders to do us harm, and everyone who crosses our borders illegally is by definition a criminal. That’s why every nation in the world (except us, for some reason) is serious about securing their border.

                                                       

                                                      Bill
                                                       
                                                      On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:02:32 -0700 (PDT) F Worley <worley_f2003@...> writes:
                                                      Actually Bill,
                                                       
                                                      I was the one that cautioned about the race issue.  It was not intended as a diversion in anyway, just a caution as I work it the business of crafting messages and can see how easily a message can be misconstrured.  (I've made the mistake myself a number of times).
                                                       
                                                      In our minds, the landmine idea makes perfect sense.  A simple matter of choice.  But we have to remember that the rest of the world, and the rest of the nation, does not think like we do.
                                                       
                                                      If we placed landmines it would kill innocent children who have not freely chosen to cross the boarder, and therefore, it would not accomplish our aim.
                                                       
                                                      Patroling the boarders is the right idea, but we as a group, should also make our voices heard.  An easy way to do that is to hammer away at the fact the policies of the Mexican government towards illegal aliens, US visitors and others are inconsistant with their demands on the U.S.
                                                       
                                                      We are a nation of immigrants and should continue to welcome those, LOUDLY that come legally, and denounce those who do not, and the governments that sponsor them.
                                                       
                                                      Frank Worley


                                                      bill Jambura <jambura@...> wrote:

                                                      Frank,

                                                       

                                                      My sentiments exactly about the LP.  The Republicans are the equal opposites of the Democrats, but no less damaging to our Constitution, liberty and freedoms. 

                                                       

                                                      In this dialogue of e-mails I, and many of you, may have received the e-mail cautioning us against looking like we hate Hispanics if we defend our borders.  That is an excellent diversion.  Here's an answer to the bigotry vs. national sovereignty debate.

                                                       

                                                      The best way to defend our border without being bigots is to do what weve done all over the worldland mines. 

                                                       

                                                      1. Weve put them on every other continent of our world with great successbecause they are an extremely effective perimeter defense. 
                                                      2. They don't require feeding or a massive payroll to manage them.  Nor can they be bribed.
                                                      3. They are nondiscriminatorythey don't care about race, religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation, and whatever other bemoanings bleeding heart liberals can come up with.  They just don't like being stepped on.
                                                      4. They will not harm you unless you step on them.  And you have to go out of your way to step on them.  Its freedom of choice.   If you dont want to get blown up, dont go there; or you can choose to achieve upward mobility on a one-time trip.
                                                      5. And, to be a good neighbor, lets tell Mr. Fox to update his illegal immigration pamphlet so that his swarming hoards know that they may become commingled with desert dirt if they try to sneak across our borders and dance in our mine fields.
                                                      6.  And, to be a good neighbor, we can put up signs (in all the romance languages of course) to identify the first several miles of American soil along the Mexican border as a: NO GO ZONERecommend you use a controlled entry point for your safe crossing. 
                                                       
                                                      On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:19:18 -0700 (PDT) F Worley <> writes:
                                                      If the LP would get a sane foriegn policy, borders included, I might actually consider rejoining them.
                                                       
                                                      No offense to my friends in the RLC but between budget deficits, Terri Shiavo and other issues, I've just about had it with the GOP and the DEMS ain't getting my vote.
                                                       
                                                      But I digress, where do we stand on this issue of the Minute Men?
                                                       
                                                      Frank

                                                      Guy McLendon <guy@...> wrote:
                                                      FYI ... to whomever it may concern ... my guess is there's more than a 50% chance the LP will water down their 100% open borders plank in 2006 ... to acknowledge Constitutional authorization for border security, and validity of reason to exercise this authority for purposes of protecting public health & national security.
                                                       
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 12:49 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Mechanical Engineering - Good, Good, Good ... Good Vibrations

                                                      OK, several have given their opinions on the MinuteMen, so let's get on to strategy;
                                                       
                                                      1) Tancredo talks like he would like to ride this issue into the Whitehouse.  Would the RLC endorse him?
                                                      2) Every state has this problem.  Let's get to networking with groups that are working on this issue in our states.
                                                      3) Democrats and Republicans don't seem able to handle this issue.  Can the RLC forge new ground here?
                                                      4) Libertarians believe in open borders; maybe we don't even have a philosophical leg to stand on.  You decide.
                                                       
                                                      But at least you have to start thinking in these terms.  Guy's first email talked about issues that resonate with a broad swath of the public.  This might not be something that we can use, but the issue is becoming red hot.  It's starting to resonate, and ringing like a bell.
                                                       
                                                      Chuck Seberg 
                                                       
                                                       
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