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Re: [RLC-Action] Re: What is "too" libertarian

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  • Sakshale eQuorian
    Sandy; As someone who has a solid, Roman Catholic background, I have to agree 100% with what you are saying. Christian theology says we are placed on this
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 24, 2008
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      Sandy;

      As someone who has a solid, Roman Catholic background, I have to agree 100%
      with what you are saying.  Christian theology says we are placed on this planet to
      make critical decisions based on our free will.  Theocratic states deprive people
      of their free will, attempting to prevent them from having the opportunity to freely
      make that choice. 

      As a believing Christian and citizen of the United States, I must defend every one's
      right to freely choose how they will respond to that "internal" call the spiritual world. 

      I try very hard to not offend those that believe differently than I do.  Sometimes,
      it is very difficult to find a way to express what you believe without offending
      some people, but we must try.

      To paraphrase an old statement; I may not believe in some one's faith, but I will
      defend their right to follow that faith.  The only caveat being that they may not
      use their faith as a justification to prevent someone else from following a different
      faith.

      The main thing that bothers me in the political arena today is that "freedom of religion"
      has been redefined in many areas as "freedom from religion"... where any indication of
      support for a religious belief is attacked as forbidden by policy, or in some cases, law.

      Sakshale
    • DGHarrison
      Sakshale, I agree with you. But it is not just a theocracy that will thwart free will. Our free will is also thwarted by advocates of the post-modern, secular
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 24, 2008
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        Sakshale,

        I agree with you. But it is not just a theocracy that will thwart free will.

        Our free will is also thwarted by advocates of the post-modern, secular welfare state, who want to confiscate the fruits of our labor to pay for other people's blunders. The Left wants to make government into a nanny, passing laws "for our own good" and "for the children." Where there is need in the world, we all (not just Christians) are to use our free will to give willingly, with a glad and cheerful heart, as moved by the Spirit. No one has a glad and cheerful heart on April 15.

        Forcefully taking extra taxes from the people for social programs not only thwarts free will, but it also gives some people an excuse to not give personally. They figure it's the government's responsibility, and they figure, "I gave at the office." Worse, very often the money taken from taxpayers is used for things the Spirit would not approve, making us complicate in such moral failures as abortion. Interestingly, progressives give notably less to charity, an affirmation of their belief that government is the almighty benefactor.

        Abortion is an issue that some libertarians view as affecting the rights of the mother, yet other libertarians view it as affecting the rights of the unborn and nearly-born. I obviously subscribe to the latter view. If McCain does not select a veep with strong pro-life credentials, he will certainly lose a very large chunk of much needed support from conservative Christians.

        Doug Harrison
        Minnesota



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      • Dave Nalle
        ... Ron Paul. If someone can explain this to me objectively, I would be appreciative.
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 24, 2008
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          >> I do not understand this irrational hatred many RLC members have for
          Ron Paul.
          If someone can explain this to me objectively, I would be appreciative.<<

          I can't speak for anyone else, only for myself. And I don't have an
          irrational hatred.
          I just think that Paul's views and actions do not represent the liberty
          agenda very well
          and that association with him and his movement is more of a liability
          than it once was.
          This is made particularly troublesome because so many hold him up as THE
          symbol
          of the liberty movement and IMO his views are not typical of most
          rational liberty
          oriented people and certainly not representative of those of us who want
          to move the
          idea of liberty more into the mainstream.

          Dave
        • Dave Nalle
          David: What Ron Paul himself is or is not is hardly relevant here. His campaign and his legacy are permanently tainted by the beliefs and associations of his
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 24, 2008
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            David:

            What Ron Paul himself is or is not is hardly relevant here. His
            campaign and his
            legacy are permanently tainted by the beliefs and associations of his
            followers, and
            that association with fanaticism, extremist beliefs and bigotry is what
            attaches to
            anything associated with him, whether deservedly or not.

            As for your attempts to defend him personally on these issues, it all
            kind of
            falls flat given his unwillingness to reign in his followers and
            surrogates, and he is
            in fact speaking at the JBS convention, so there's no defense on that
            front at all.

            And you're dead wrong on the religious issue too. It's not just
            abortion, it's also
            his support for prayer in schools and posting the ten commandments on
            government
            property - worse offenses IMO.

            I understand the desire too support Paul for all the good things he has
            done, but
            the truth is more complex than that. I suppose we could add the
            criticism of
            hypocrisy to the list, because that certainly helps explain much. He
            can't get away
            with hiding his real beliefs behind his twisted view of the constitution
            and states
            rights when people are actually paying attention.

            Dave
          • David Johnson
            ... I know the anarcho-atheists will hate me for saying so, but I just don t see where anyone s life, liberty or property are being damaged by some child
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 25, 2008
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              On Sunday 24 August 2008 11:46:36 pm Dave Nalle wrote:
              > And you're dead wrong on the religious issue too. It's not just
              > abortion, it's also his support for prayer in schools and posting the ten
              > commandments on government property - worse offenses IMO.

              I know the anarcho-atheists will hate me for saying so, but I just don't see
              where anyone's life, liberty or property are being damaged by some child
              voluntarily praying in school. Mandatory attendance at teacher directed
              prayer is a different matter, but that's not what the liberals are upset
              about and it's not what Ron Paul is advocating. The problem isn't separation
              of church and state, but the lack of separation of school and state. (I know,
              that's so old it's a cliche, but that doesn't diminish its truth).

              Posting the ten commandments may be trickier, but if they're posted in a
              manner that reflects their historic legal significance rather than in a
              religious proselytory way, then I still don't have a problem with it. Absent
              direct tax funding, what force is being initiated by it? Who is being
              damaged? What property is being violated?

              --
              David Johnson
            • DGHarrison
              What Ron Paul himself is or is not is hardly relevant here. His campaign and his legacy are permanently tainted by the beliefs and associations of his
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 25, 2008
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                What Ron Paul himself is or is not is hardly relevant here. His campaign and his legacy are permanently tainted by the beliefs and associations of his followers, and that association with fanaticism, extremist beliefs and bigotry is what attaches to anything associated with him, whether deservedly or not. -- Dave Nalle

                The fanatics are responsible for my tempered support of Ron Paul. I was never able to tell my family more than a few basics, because I had to shield them from the fanatics, especially the conspiracy wing. My family is conservative and likes the same things I do about Paul, but the clamoring conspiracy folks would have driven them away. Knowing this about my own family, I am convinced that the loonies are responsible for turning the mainstream Republican against Paul.

                I like a lot of things Paul stands for, but there seems to have been a total disconnect between the man and his followers. The whole campaign was run seemingly without direction or control, and that frustrated me greatly. When asking the Paul campaign for support and direction, we not only got none, but were rebuffed in all attempts to coordinate in any manner with the official campaign headquarters.. It seemed that there were walls built between the insular Paul headquarters and the chaotic individual efforts being conducted on his behalf. I could never understand why every other presidential campaign was coordinating the heck out of its supporters, but we were told not to cross those lines. We were on our own. And as has been observed, getting libertarians to work together is like herding cats, made more frustrating because they take pride in not taking direction from anybody.

                Doug Harrison
                Minnesota



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