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Re: All Politics is Local

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  • westmiller@aol.com
    Posted by: David Johnson ... I think that s what I said. But, in the case of the LP, gaining 10% of the electorate motivates both major parties to move in
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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      Posted by: "David Johnson"
      > We only need enough of a percentage to influence.
      > 10% of either is sufficient to make people sit up and
      > take notice. It's at that point where we can start
      > influencing the direction of the party.
          I think that's what I said. But, in the case of the LP,
      gaining 10% of the electorate motivates both major
      parties to move in the direction of winning that new
      constituency, either practically or rhetorically. That
      benefits the RLC strategy, but diminishes the future
      electoral prospects of the LP, since some portion of
      their voters will gravitate to the "new and improved",
      and more viable, Republican or Democratic Parties.
       
          I've always (well, within the past decade) seen
      the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist
      Party of the early 19th century. They elected very
      few people, but succeeded in having their entire
      platform adopted by the Democrats. If the same
      happens with the Republicans, via LP influence,
      then both the LP and RLC will become somewhat
      superfluous, just as the Socialist Party did. That
      took decades and may take us several decades
      to achieve, so plenty of work until then.
       
      Bill




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    • DGHarrison
      /I ve always (well, within the past decade) seen the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist Party of the early 19th century. They elected very few
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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        I've always (well, within the past decade) seen the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist Party of the early 19th century. They elected very few people, but succeeded in having their entire platform adopted by the Democrats. If the same happens with the Republicans, via LP influence,then both the LP and RLC will become somewhat superfluous, just as the Socialist Party did. That took decades and may take us several decades to achieve, so plenty of work until then. -- Bill

        Of course, even if the RP adopts a more libertarian platform, the RLC will still need to remain eternally vigilant and make stronger moves to maintain whatever progress is achieved. As for the SP, they're still attempting to field candidates for office, though I've never noticed any media attention for anything they do. Perhaps that's because the Democrats are getting all the media for them, and the SP is just the appendix on the colon. I like that analogy: one is useless and the other is full of you know what.

        Doug Harrison
        Minnesota



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      • Chris Edes
        ... Sometimes it works that way, other times no. The Republican Party itself was once a third party . The failure of the Whig Party allowed the Republican
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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          >         I've always (well, within the past decade) seen
          >     the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist
          >     Party of the early 19th century. They elected very
          >     few people, but succeeded in having their entire
          >     platform adopted by the Democrats. If the same
          >     happens with the Republicans, via LP influence,
          >     then both the LP and RLC will become somewhat
          >     superfluous, just as the Socialist Party did. That
          >     took decades and may take us several decades
          >     to achieve, so plenty of work until then.
          >      
          >     Bill

             Sometimes it works that way, other times no.  The Republican
          Party itself was once a "third party".  The failure of the Whig Party
          allowed the Republican Party to take its place.

             As I've said before, I'm not too concerned with factional
          outcomes.  It generally takes less effort to construct a win-win
          situation, then it does to slug it out in a win-lose situation.
          You just have to be clever.

          Chris

        • Barry Moore
          Well, then, look at the Anti-Alcohol gurus, the Prohibitionists. They managed to get no-one elected, but managed to get a Constitutional Amendment passed which
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 15, 2008
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            Well, then, look at the Anti-Alcohol gurus, the Prohibitionists. They managed to get no-one elected, but managed to get a Constitutional Amendment passed which just resulted in MORE crime.
             
            I think the RLC would be more effective if it were, say, 50 years ago, but right now, with major media controlling thoughts and plans, and with the majority of Americans being an inch deep in history and liberty...I just kind of get the feeling that unless something radical happens, like a DEPRESSION, we're not making much ground.
             
            While I appreciate the Paulites, I think that movement has more to do with contempt and open rebellion, than actual planning as to how to recover liberty in our lifetimes.
             
            Just not sure how to attack the beast. Things are looking up, but a little too little, a little to late.
             
            Barry

            --- On Fri, 8/15/08, westmiller@... <westmiller@...> wrote:
            From: westmiller@... <westmiller@...>
            Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: All Politics is Local
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, August 15, 2008, 5:40 PM

            Posted by: "David Johnson"
            > We only need enough of a percentage to influence.
            > 10% of either is sufficient to make people sit up and
            > take notice. It's at that point where we can start
            > influencing the direction of the party.
                I think that's what I said. But, in the case of the LP,
            gaining 10% of the electorate motivates both major
            parties to move in the direction of winning that new
            constituency, either practically or rhetorically. That
            benefits the RLC strategy, but diminishes the future
            electoral prospects of the LP, since some portion of
            their voters will gravitate to the "new and improved",
            and more viable, Republican or Democratic Parties.
             
                I've always (well, within the past decade) seen
            the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist
            Party of the early 19th century. They elected very
            few people, but succeeded in having their entire
            platform adopted by the Democrats. If the same
            happens with the Republicans, via LP influence,
            then both the LP and RLC will become somewhat
            superfluous, just as the Socialist Party did. That
            took decades and may take us several decades
            to achieve, so plenty of work until then.
             
            Bill




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          • Bryan K. Donnelly
            ... budget? ... ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) ... Libertairans getting 10% of the vote; DESTRCTIVE FANTASY. HELLO, REAL WORLD CALLING! Bill s comparison between
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 16, 2008
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              --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, westmiller@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > Posted by: "David Johnson"
              > > We only need enough of a percentage to influence.
              > > 10% of either is sufficient to make people sit up and
              > > take notice. It's at that point where we can start
              > > influencing the direction of the party.
              >
              >
              > I think that's what I said. But, in the case of the LP,
              > gaining 10% of the electorate motivates both major
              > parties to move in the direction of winning that new
              > constituency, either practically or rhetorically. That
              > benefits the RLC strategy, but diminishes the future
              > electoral prospects of the LP, since some portion of
              > their voters will gravitate to the "new and improved",
              > and more viable, Republican or Democratic Parties.
              >
              > I've always (well, within the past decade) seen
              > the LP prospects as similar to those of the Socialist
              > Party of the early 19th century. They elected very
              > few people, but succeeded in having their entire
              > platform adopted by the Democrats. If the same
              > happens with the Republicans, via LP influence,
              > then both the LP and RLC will become somewhat
              > superfluous, just as the Socialist Party did. That
              > took decades and may take us several decades
              > to achieve, so plenty of work until then.
              >
              > Bill
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
              budget?
              > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
              > (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?
              ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
              >


              Libertairans getting 10% of the vote; DESTRCTIVE FANTASY.

              HELLO, REAL WORLD CALLING! Bill's comparison between today's LP and
              yesterday's Socialist Party has some, EXTREMELY LIMITED
              applicability. Yes the 1932 Democrats DID adopt much of the SP's
              agenda (steeply graduated taxes, business regulation, social
              insurance etc.) and are still pushing other as yet un-enacted
              socialist programs (national health care, pacifism/isolationism,
              government education monopoly etc.) But did ALL these socialist ideas
              spring fully formed from the head of Norman Thomas' followers?

              Not at all. The Democratic party has been a largely POPULIST
              organization dating back to it's founding by Thomas Jefferson (an
              agrarian idealist and economic illiterate) and became overwhelmingly
              pig-ignorant populist with Andrew Jackson.

              That president treated his throngs of unwashed rustics to an inagural
              party featuring free whiskey and they practically wrecked the White
              House. His poltical principles reflected this in such disasterous
              policies as refusal to re-charter the Bank of the United States,
              leaving the republic without a central bank and creating disasterous
              monetary "panics" (depressions) literally every decade of the 19th
              century.

              During the latter 19th and early 20th centuries the populist malady
              expressed itself in such nonsense as the "single tax", anti-bank, and
              inflationary "free silver" movements. The last epitomized by the
              flannel mouthed demagogue William Jennings Bryan's "cross of gold"
              speech at the 1896 Democrat convention. The entire "free silver" idea
              was to allow western farmers to repay mortages/loans with inflated
              dollars; a form of theft/income redistribution. Class envy, along
              with disloyalty (support for secession in the 1860's and opposition
              to the war with Spain in the '90's) have long been integral parts of
              Democrat agenda.

              Somewhat later, the populist mania gave us the "progerssive movement"
              and such outgages as the graduated income tax, not to mention
              politically elected judges and politically mandated interest rates
              via "usury" laws. Lest we forget these were among the platform planks
              of Thomas Woodrow Wilson, probably the WORST president in US hisory.

              How did the author of the Versailles Treaty and the idiotic League of
              Nations get into office? Simple, a third party (Tedddy
              Roosevelt's "Bull Moose" Progressives) split the electorate insuring
              the racist progressive professor's election over William Howard Taft,
              a reliable constitutionalist. It was under the Wilson Administration
              that we got the 16th Ammendment and income tax. Have we repealed it
              yet? Yep, third parties can do SO MUCH GOOD.

              Look, I have a lot of problems with John McCain and the "mainstream"
              Republicans; love to see Jeff Flake replace Boehner as GOP leader in
              the house tomorrow. I'd also like to see such RINO's as my own US
              Senator Mel Martinez and his wishy washy colleagues Hegel, Chamblis,
              Lindsay Grahm, Corker, Isaakson and Thune (the energy "republicans"
              in the "gang of ten) depart for wherever old clueless "moderates" go.
              And in the NEXT GOP primary fight, we need a genuine
              CONSERVATIVE/LIBERTARIAN more the ilk of a Fred D. Thompson (If ONLY
              Fred had really wanted it!)

              But RIGHT NOW we have NO choice. We have to support McCain over the
              radical socialist/appeaser/third world activist Barak Hussein Obama.
              Put such a president togheter with a likely Democrat/socialist
              congress and you have DISASTER! We'll get higher confiscatory taxes,
              incresed government interference/regulation in business along with
              about every aspect of our lives, and a foreign policy based on
              defeat, retreat, and weakness (Though THAT seems what the LP, unlike
              the American people wants.) Like government run "national health
              care?" Me neither. But it'll be enacted and get so deeply rooted that
              we'll NEVER be able to get rid of it. Hey guys, whether you like it
              or not, "middle class entitlements" are hugely popular with the brain
              dead masses! Privatization, of schools, of social security, of
              regulations; FORGET IT! Yeah, I KNOW it'll lead to disaseter. Do YOU
              really want to live through it. How about your kids, grand kids? Want
              to hand them such a screwed up country?

              Yes I KNOW we're not going to get everything we want. But do you
              really think that abandoning the GOP, which is at least LESS
              ENTHUSIASTIC about government than the Democrat/socialists is going
              to get you listened to? If you do, you're demented. Want to promote
              libertarian ideas and get 'em actually ENACTED? Then you need to
              follow the socialist leader "Mother Jones's" adage; "ORGANIZE,
              ORGANIZE, ORGANIZE!" Become a vital important part of the GOP
              coalition; one that DELLVERS VOTES. That is the ONLY thing that
              politicians care about, like it or not. Running off to support some
              quixotic third party will get you DISCOUNTED not listened to much
              less have your ideas accepted. It was only when the Socialists joined
              the Democrats that they got what they wanted.

              Moreover, the Socialists had a HUGE base of support in the labor
              movement and were GOOD at organizing. They had issues which the
              ignorant masses could relate to; making the rich pay "their share,"
              and despoiling their betters. Always sure winners among the
              congenitally stupid who make up such a huge percentage of the
              electorate (including ALL oblivious self proclaimed "moderates".)

              The LP seems more a collection of idealistic misfits with all the
              organizational skills one is apt to find among doctrinaire
              anarchists; none. Add to this their genius for refusing any form of
              compomise and what you get is perpetual fringe losers.

              I'll make you ALL a small wager. Should the LP EVER get over 5% of
              the vote natinally, I'll shave off my beard. My facial hair is as
              safe as the rock of Gibraltar.
            • jeff
              True, but this isn t something we need to see in writing from our Chairman. Being perceived as an organ of the Party has distinct advantages... Among them, ex
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 16, 2008
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                True, but this isn't something we need to see in writing from our Chairman.  Being perceived as an organ of the Party has distinct advantages...  Among them, ex officio county executive committee seats here in North Carolina.

                jeff palmer

                -----Original Message-----
                From: westmiller@...
                Sent: Aug 14, 2008 3:35 PM
                To: RLC-Discuss@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [RLC-Action] All Politics is Local <SNIPPED>

                Don't confuse the RLC with the RNC. We are not any kind
                of official Republican Party organ. We are a Liberty Caucus
                within the GOP and hardly "centrist" among Republicans
                in general.
                
                ________________________________________
                PeoplePC Online
                A better way to Internet
                http://www.peoplepc.com
              • westmiller@aol.com
                Posted by: Barry Moore ... The RLC strategy is evolutionary , nor revolutionary . We don t need major media to endorse our objectives, only a few voters
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 16, 2008
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                  Posted by: "Barry Moore"
                  > ... right now, with major media controlling thoughts
                  > and plans ...

                  The RLC strategy is "evolutionary", nor "revolutionary".
                  We don't need major media to endorse our objectives,
                  only a few voters in each precinct, casting ballots for
                  GOP county officials who support liberty. The major
                  media (even local media) won't take any note of our
                  progress until after-the-fact changes in candidates
                  and issues that get support from liberty advocates.

                  > ... and with the majority of Americans being an inch
                  > deep in history and liberty ...

                  The RLC benefits from a vast array of educational
                  and policy think-tanks with a libertarian slant. The
                  re-education of American is going to be a one-on-one
                  effort to make any changes - not the least of which
                  is privatizing the educational system.

                  > ... I think that movement has more to do with
                  > contempt and open rebellion, than actual planning
                  > as to how to recover liberty in our lifetimes.

                  There's a lot of angry flailing about, but when the
                  dust settles, liberty activists will be looking for a
                  solid political organization that shares most - if not
                  all - of their views. We think the RLC Principles and
                  strategy will appeal to those who are thinking beyond
                  yesterday's "Money Bomb".

                  > Just not sure how to attack the beast ...

                  Every person has to make their own decision.
                  The RLC is not for everyone and there are many
                  other options for pursuing liberty. Pick one that
                  interests you, focus, and apply your brain, time,
                  and resources toward achieving small victories.
                  The "beast" will die ... of a thousand cuts.

                  Bill



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                • westmiller@aol.com
                  Posted by: jeff jap1@peoplepc.com ... My point was simply that the RLC is not a knee-jerk apologist for every GOP position, candidate, or legislator. ... I
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 17, 2008
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                    Posted by: "jeff" jap1@...
                    > True, but this isn't something we need to see in writing
                    > from our Chairman.

                    My point was simply that the RLC is not a knee-jerk
                    apologist for every GOP position, candidate, or legislator.

                    > Being perceived as an organ of the Party has distinct
                    > advantages ... Among them, ex officio county executive
                    > committee seats here in North Carolina.

                    I have always - and will continue to - urge state chapters
                    NOT to seek official party recognition or authorization,
                    even if that obtains an ex-officio seat on county or state
                    GOP committees. All of those "certifications" (at least,
                    all those that I've reviewed) require total conformity with
                    the state party. The Caucus might be *forbidden* to
                    make endorsements in primaries; RLC officers who say
                    anything contrary to the platform or positions of any
                    official nominee may be summarily removed from office
                    by the GOP Executive Director; ex-officio officers may
                    be required to sign a "loyalty oath" forbidding any words
                    considered inconsistent with party rules; and the RLC
                    could be given various "quotas" to fulfill in support of
                    party fund-raising and registration drives. If the "official"
                    status in your state varies, I'd be surprised.

                    It is true that some of those burdens may apply to
                    individual RLC members who are elected to those
                    official committees, which is a personal decision.
                    But we shouldn't, as an organization, be seeking an
                    official status that impedes the basic purposes and
                    principles of the RLC or its members.

                    Bill



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