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Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

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  • Steven Burden
    I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting confused: Energy Independence
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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      I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good
      points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting
      confused: Energy Independence and Energy Security.

      In our global marketplace, I don't think we can actually achieve
      Energy Independence in the sense that we depend on no other countries
      to supply our total energy requirements.

      What we can do, however is achieve a good bit of Energy security.
      Just as in any other case, however, a good bit of independence and
      security can be achieved by diverse and multi modal supplies. What I
      mean is we need to be able to use many different sources to fully
      provide for our energy requirements.

      That is fine, but when you must have different resources to provide
      for changing energy needs, it is only of limited value if you require
      oil or ethanol sources for transportation, coal, nuke or oil for
      powering our homes and businesses, etc. A cut in one, leads to
      tremendous hardships and great economic damage. Just look at the
      damage that the spikes in crude oil prices have caused, even though
      most of our homes and businesses are not powered by oil.

      In short, it is still too 'insecure'. The best idea for a long term
      solution and comes from Andy Grove, the former CEO of Intel Corp in
      the most recent edition of 'The American'
      (http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-
      contents/our-electric-future)
      What he is proposing is that we set all our energy use is via a
      single medium--electricity--but that we develop ways to convert all
      the disparate sources (thus giving us greater independence from any
      single source, like oil). These conversion systems--would require the
      ability to change from one source to another as rapidly and cheaply
      as possible.

      Needless to say, this is a long term target, and in the short term we
      still need to develop every available resource--drilling, nuke,
      natgas, coal gasification, etc--as quickly as the can be brought
      online.

      --Steve



      --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, sarah lovett <sarahllovett@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly...I just
      don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work
      that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign
      oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that...
      Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and
      diversity..though they have many other problems...
      >  
      > ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars
      and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar,
      like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the
      supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar
      propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.
      >  
      > Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market
      period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to
      bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed
      about the possibilities is all I meant.
      >  
      > Thanks though George...I should of specified...I was just trying
      not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force
      legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market
      energy solutions...again I think this is viable. 
      > Sarah
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
      > To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
      > Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems
      moribund.
      >
      >
      > .  Bryan 's provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion
      that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is
      just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common
      misunderstanding. She says "… drilling will help prices go down but
      unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like,
      but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is
      preventing them from sending it to China, India etc.) then focusing
      on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on
      opening the energy market period."  Oil is a fungible commodity in a
      world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether
      to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn't matter at all.  More oil
      from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.
      >  
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro
      ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
      > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
      > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
      > Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems
      moribund.
      >  
      > Agreed Phil...
      >  
      > -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must
      always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after
      we have won trust.
      > -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able
      to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand
      is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a
      strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the
      proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee
      thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.
      > -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be
      angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have
      outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of
      emotional maturity. 
      > -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not
      be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity
      at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work"
      doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we
      will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and
      ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this
      energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they
      choose to ignore their conservative base.
      > -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the
      groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than
      healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people
      united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is
      enough really enough? 
      >  
      > As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is
      part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after"
      the primaries.
      >  
      > 1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress
      continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our
      legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals
      to do business.
      > 2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 
      >      This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural
      gas etc etc not just drilling.
      >       Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we
      demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the
      reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing
      them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this
      alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening
      the energy market period.
      > 3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so
      much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities
      into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with
      utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have
      little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the
      area.
      > 4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas
      lines, energy plants etc etc.
      > 5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities
      then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh
      so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax
      revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have
      to start somewhere and move in this direction.
      >  
      > This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need
      to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we
      will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference. 
      Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their
      economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure
      we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing. 
      We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 
      >  
      > Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring
      our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work
      and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we
      must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race
      for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.
      >  
      > I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked
      for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull
      this off.
      >  
      > Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask
      that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to
      be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically
      and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for
      one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again
      know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet
      people like Libermann for VP. 
      >  
      > Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only
      as strong as his army.
      >  
      > For Liberty ,
      > Sarah
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      >  
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
      > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
      > Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.
      > Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you
      can
      > imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.
      >
      > But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say
      that?
      > The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!
      >
      > You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
      > believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
      > drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.
      >
      > -pb
      >
      > --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
      > <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:
      > > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD
      >
    • Laura Ebke
      I’ve watched this play out for a while. I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters. I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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        I’ve watched this play out for a while.  I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters.  I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC members (spread throughout the state) that we have in our newly chartered group in Nebraska are, as well.  Some are more fringe-ish than others of us are, but here in Nebraska, we’re all committed to working within the Party and promoting the cause of liberty that way.   Some want their way in the Party NOW; others recognize that Party change is an evolutionary process that plays out in stages.

         

        Honestly, in our state, there would be only 2 or 3 of us who would be RLC members had they not been inspired to political action by the Paul campaign.  Now it’s time for those of us who are not “on the fringe” to find common ground where we can with those who we think are—and to concentrate on that common ground to try work in the right direction.  Those on the “fringe”—at least those I’ve come into contact with here in my state—are really people who feel passionately about issues, but who have had very little “real world” experience.  Channel that passion into making practically attainable change, and we’ll actually get somewhere.

         

        Just my Midwestern two cents.

         

         

        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Otto
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:29 PM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

         

        I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

         

        I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

         

        We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

         

        Joel Otto

        Lander, WY

         

        P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

         

        On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



        I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

        The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

        Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

        Doug Harrison
        Minnesota

        I wouldn’t accept Bryan’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in Florida. The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility-accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

         

        We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

         

         

        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

         

        Here's a vote for Las Vegas; actually a place I loathe, having 
        attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
        and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
        DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
        thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
        hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
        held in "destination" cities like Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas or even 
        Chicago or Nashville and NOT in places like Detroit (Sorry 
        Michiganders.) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
        little interest. 

        I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
        money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
        all their C-level executives. Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
        ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
        Hoboken NJ, Cheraw NC, and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
        leave the hotel.

        One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
        a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-
        libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
        former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
        stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
        economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
        willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
        really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
        came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
        of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
        genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

        Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
        or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
        House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
        golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
        So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
        tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
        will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
        advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
        like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
        the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
        the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
        LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

        BKD

         

         

         


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      • DGHarrison
        I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were fringies. And I certainly didn t mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them,
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

          If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

          Doug Harrison
          Minnesota

          I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

          I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

          We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

          Joel Otto
          Lander, WY

          P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

          On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

          I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

          The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

          Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

          Doug Harrison
          Minnesota

          I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

           

          We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

           

           

          From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
          Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
          Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

           

          Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
          attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
          and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
          DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
          thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
          hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
          held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
          Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
          Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
          little interest. 

          I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
          money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
          all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
          ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
          Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
          leave the hotel.

          One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
          a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
          libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
          former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
          stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
          economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
          willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
          really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
          came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
          of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
          genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

          Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
          or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
          House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
          golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
          So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
          tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
          will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
          advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
          like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
          the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
          the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
          LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

          BKD





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        • Joel Otto
          Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues. My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable,
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

            Joel Otto
            Lander, WY

            On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

            I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

            If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

            Doug Harrison
            Minnesota

            I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

            I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

            We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

            Joel Otto
            Lander, WY

            P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

            On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

            I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

            The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

            Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

            Doug Harrison
            Minnesota

            I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

             

            We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

             

             

            From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
            Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

             

            Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
            attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
            and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
            DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
            thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
            hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
            held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
            Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
            Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
            little interest. 

            I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
            money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
            all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
            ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
            Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
            leave the hotel.

            One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
            a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
            libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
            former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
            stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
            economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
            willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
            really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
            came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
            of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
            genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

            Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
            or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
            House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
            golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
            So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
            tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
            will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
            advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
            like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
            the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
            the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
            LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

            BKD





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          • Vince
            I d like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said: ...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
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              I'd like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said:

              "...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist
              anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."

              In Southwest Florida, a strong majority of the members of the Ron Paul
              and RLC groups were recruited as Republicans, not Libertarians who
              changed parties. And even the former Libertarians around here don't
              fit your harsh description; they're very strong, well-informed,
              strategic, patient, leaders. Please do not make sweeping statements
              about things such as that.

              "...even willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention."

              Pardon me, but $500-$1,000 is a lot of money to some people,
              especially in this economy. I thought we were supposed to be against
              debt spending? If I don't attend an RLC Convention, it doesn't mean
              I'm not a good member of the RLC, it means I can't afford the trip.

              I advance the philosophy of liberty, whether I'm in Detroit or SW Florida.
            • Mr geoff broughton
              I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion. The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                BKD

                The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."......"So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                of libertarian philosophy"

                This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders
                Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Joel Otto <jotto@...>
                To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.


                Joel Otto
                Lander, WY

                On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

                I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                Doug Harrison
                Minnesota

                I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                Joel Otto
                Lander, WY

                P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

                I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                Doug Harrison
                Minnesota

                I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                 

                We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                 

                 

                From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                 

                Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                little interest. 

                I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                leave the hotel.

                One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                BKD





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              • George Blumel
                Mr Geoff didn t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan s points about arguing minute points. Geoff argues that
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                • 0 Attachment

                  Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                   


                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                   

                  I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                  "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                  a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                  libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                  former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                  stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                  economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                  willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                  really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                  came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                  genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                  Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                  or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                  House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                  golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                  So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                  tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                  will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                  advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                  like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                  the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                  the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                  LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                  BKD

                  The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                  "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy"

                  This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                  Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                  What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                  We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                  Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                  Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                  Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                  While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                  Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                  Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                   

                  Joel Otto

                  Lander, WY

                   

                  On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                  I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                  If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                  Doug Harrison
                  Minnesota

                  I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                   

                  I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                   

                  We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                   

                  Joel Otto

                  Lander, WY

                   

                  P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                • Mr geoff broughton
                  I wasn t aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same. I
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I wasn't aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same.  I read it as part of a string of invectives that made no coherent sense to cast aspersions at people with whom he didn't agree with or like.  But when you have to split hairs, I guess any hair will do.

                    I wasn't attempting to score any points, but merely reacting, maybe over reacting. But even people who disagreed with Brian's points did it in a way to not even challenge the stupidity of those remarks.  My replay was about as sarcastic as you can get even down to the quote from the bible which was from the movie The Devil's Advocate.

                    I do apologize for posting what I should have kept to myself.  I will try not to allow myself to be baited into this type of discussion again.  Good day to you all.


                     

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:20:16 AM
                    Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                    Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                     


                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                     

                    I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                    "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                    a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                    libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                    former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                    stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                    economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                    willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                    really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                    came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                    of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                    genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                    Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                    or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                    House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                    golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                    So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                    tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                    will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                    advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                    like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                    the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                    the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                    LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                    BKD

                    The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                    "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                    of libertarian philosophy"

                    This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                    Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                    What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                    We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                    Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                    Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                    Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                    While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                    Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                    Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                     

                    Joel Otto

                    Lander, WY

                     

                    On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                    I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                    If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                    Doug Harrison
                    Minnesota

                    I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                     

                    I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                     

                    We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                     

                    Joel Otto

                    Lander, WY

                     

                    P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                     

                    On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



                    I agree with Bryan . Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                    The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                    Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                    Doug Harrison
                    Minnesota

                    I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                     

                    We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                     

                     

                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                    Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                    Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                     

                    Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                    attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                    and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                    DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                    thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                    hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                    held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                    Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                    Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                    little interest. 

                    I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                    money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                    all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                    ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                    Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                    leave the hotel.

                    One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                    a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                    libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                    former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                    stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                    economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                    willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                    really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                    came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                    of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                    genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                    Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                    or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                    House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                    golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                    So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                    tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                    will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                    advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                    like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                    the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                    the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                    LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                    BKD

                     

                     

                     


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                  • Philip Blumel
                    OK, I ve had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts here. I quit,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                      projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                      here. I quit, goodbye.

                      -- Philip Blumel
                    • David Johnson
                      ... This is the nature of mailing lists. It s how the medium works. Without a moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                        > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                        > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                        > here. I quit, goodbye.

                        This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                        moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                        topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                        no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                        are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                        that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                        The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                        list: one or more moderators.

                        --
                        David Johnson
                      • Mr geoff broughton
                        I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this. It will not happen again. Geoff ... From: David Johnson To:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this.  It will not happen again.
                          Geoff

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: David Johnson <david@...>
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:26:18 AM
                          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                          On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                          > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                          > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                          > here. I quit, goodbye.

                          This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                          moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                          topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                          no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                          are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                          that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                          The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                          list: one or more moderators.

                          --
                          David Johnson


                        • sarah lovett
                          Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies...obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions....hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                             

                            Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                             

                            Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                             

                            Sovereignty Pact-

                             

                            Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                             

                            I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                             

                            TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                            STATE OF ___________________

                               WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                               WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                               WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                               WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                               WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ______________ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                               WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

                               WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                               WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                            Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                               (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                               (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States, the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America, and _______'s Congressional delegation

                             

                             

                            Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok-safe.com/files/documents/1/HJR1089_int.pdf

                             

                            We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates....just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                             

                             


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                            Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                            “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                             


                            From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                             

                            No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                             

                            ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                             

                            Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                             

                            Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                             

                            Sarah

                             

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                            Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                            .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                             


                            From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                             

                            Agreed Phil...

                             

                            -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have won trust.

                            -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.

                            -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of emotional maturity. 

                            -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work" doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they choose to ignore their conservative base.

                            -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is enough really enough? 

                             

                            As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after" the primaries.

                             

                            1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals to do business.

                            2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 

                                 This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural gas etc etc not just drilling.

                                  Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.

                            3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the area.

                            4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas lines, energy plants etc etc.

                            5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have to start somewhere and move in this direction.

                             

                            This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference.  Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing.  We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 

                             

                            Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.

                             

                            I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull this off.

                             

                            Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet people like Libermann for VP. 

                             

                            Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only as strong as his army.

                             

                            For Liberty ,

                            Sarah

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                             

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
                            Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                            Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you can
                            imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.

                            But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say that?
                            The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!

                            You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
                            believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
                            drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.

                            -pb

                            --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
                            <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:

                            > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD

                          • George Blumel
                            Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I’ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the dollar, no. The dollar’s value is a function of the money supply, not the oil supply.  Much of the increase in the price of oil is, in fact, due to the Fed’s monetary policy –they flooded the world with dollars, causing the inflation which is more obvious in the oil price due to congress’ limitations on supply and the fact that oil is priced in dollars. 

                               


                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:40 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                               

                              Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies.. .obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions. ...hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                               

                              Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                               

                              Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                               

                              Sovereignty Pact-

                               

                              Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                               

                              I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida 's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                               

                              TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                              STATE OF ____________ _______

                                 WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                                 WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                                 WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                                 WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                                 WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ____________ __ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                                 WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States ; and

                                 WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States , 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                                 WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                              Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                                 (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                                 (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States , the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America , and _______'s Congressional delegation

                               

                               

                              Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok- safe.com/ files/documents/ 1/HJR1089_ int.pdf

                               

                              We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates.... just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                               

                               

                               

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                              Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                              “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                               


                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                               

                              No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                               

                              ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                               

                              Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                               

                              Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                               

                              Sarah

                               

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                              Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                              .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                               


                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                               

                              Agreed Phil...

                               

                              -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have wo

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