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Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

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  • Steven Burden
    Bryan sai:, ... Yes, I am having the same problem. So far, I can only get a credit on a flight on Northwest, through Orbitz, and within the next twelve months.
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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      Bryan sai:,

      > I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my
      > money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed
      > all their C-level executives.

      Yes, I am having the same problem. So far, I can only get a credit on
      a flight on Northwest, through Orbitz, and within the next twelve
      months. And that is after a $100 penalty.

      The hotel was the same. I had to spend an hour on the phone with the
      manager to finally get a refund (although, it hasn't shown up on my
      card, yet.)

      From now on, I think I will not make all my plans for our conventions
      in advance, and get trip insurance, to boot.

      I don't really care where it is, just that it is held when planned.

      --Steve

      --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
      <bryan.k.donnelly@...> wrote:
      >
      > Here's a vote for Las Vegas; actually a place I loathe, having
      > attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand
      out,
      > and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city"
      > DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere
      and
      > thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the
      > hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be
      > held in "destination" cities like Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas or even
      > Chicago or Nashville and NOT in places like Detroit (Sorry
      > Michiganders.) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so
      > little interest.
      >
      >
      >
      > I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my
      > money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed
      > all their C-level executives. Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd
      > ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with
      > Hoboken NJ, Cheraw NC, and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to
      > leave the hotel.
      >
      >
      >
      > One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that
      is
      > a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-
      > libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The
      > former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal
      > stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history
      or
      > economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or
      even
      > willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They
      > really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they
      > came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute
      points
      > of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a
      > genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take
      seriously.
      >
      >
      >
      > Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the
      LP,
      > or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White
      > House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial
      > golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the
      mainstream.
      > So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat
      > tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy
      > will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly
      > advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular
      programs
      > like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support
      > the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE.
      Currently
      > the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of
      the
      > LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd.
      >
      >
      >
      > BKD
      >
    • Steven Burden
      I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting confused: Energy Independence
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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        I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good
        points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting
        confused: Energy Independence and Energy Security.

        In our global marketplace, I don't think we can actually achieve
        Energy Independence in the sense that we depend on no other countries
        to supply our total energy requirements.

        What we can do, however is achieve a good bit of Energy security.
        Just as in any other case, however, a good bit of independence and
        security can be achieved by diverse and multi modal supplies. What I
        mean is we need to be able to use many different sources to fully
        provide for our energy requirements.

        That is fine, but when you must have different resources to provide
        for changing energy needs, it is only of limited value if you require
        oil or ethanol sources for transportation, coal, nuke or oil for
        powering our homes and businesses, etc. A cut in one, leads to
        tremendous hardships and great economic damage. Just look at the
        damage that the spikes in crude oil prices have caused, even though
        most of our homes and businesses are not powered by oil.

        In short, it is still too 'insecure'. The best idea for a long term
        solution and comes from Andy Grove, the former CEO of Intel Corp in
        the most recent edition of 'The American'
        (http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-
        contents/our-electric-future)
        What he is proposing is that we set all our energy use is via a
        single medium--electricity--but that we develop ways to convert all
        the disparate sources (thus giving us greater independence from any
        single source, like oil). These conversion systems--would require the
        ability to change from one source to another as rapidly and cheaply
        as possible.

        Needless to say, this is a long term target, and in the short term we
        still need to develop every available resource--drilling, nuke,
        natgas, coal gasification, etc--as quickly as the can be brought
        online.

        --Steve



        --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, sarah lovett <sarahllovett@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly...I just
        don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work
        that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign
        oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that...
        Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and
        diversity..though they have many other problems...
        >  
        > ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars
        and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar,
        like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the
        supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar
        propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.
        >  
        > Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market
        period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to
        bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed
        about the possibilities is all I meant.
        >  
        > Thanks though George...I should of specified...I was just trying
        not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force
        legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market
        energy solutions...again I think this is viable. 
        > Sarah
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
        > To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
        > Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems
        moribund.
        >
        >
        > .  Bryan 's provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion
        that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is
        just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common
        misunderstanding. She says "… drilling will help prices go down but
        unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like,
        but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is
        preventing them from sending it to China, India etc.) then focusing
        on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on
        opening the energy market period."  Oil is a fungible commodity in a
        world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether
        to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn't matter at all.  More oil
        from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.
        >  
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        > From:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro
        ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
        > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
        > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        > Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems
        moribund.
        >  
        > Agreed Phil...
        >  
        > -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must
        always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after
        we have won trust.
        > -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able
        to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand
        is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a
        strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the
        proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee
        thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.
        > -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be
        angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have
        outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of
        emotional maturity. 
        > -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not
        be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity
        at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work"
        doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we
        will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and
        ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this
        energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they
        choose to ignore their conservative base.
        > -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the
        groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than
        healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people
        united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is
        enough really enough? 
        >  
        > As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is
        part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after"
        the primaries.
        >  
        > 1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress
        continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our
        legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals
        to do business.
        > 2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 
        >      This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural
        gas etc etc not just drilling.
        >       Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we
        demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the
        reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing
        them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this
        alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening
        the energy market period.
        > 3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so
        much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities
        into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with
        utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have
        little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the
        area.
        > 4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas
        lines, energy plants etc etc.
        > 5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities
        then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh
        so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax
        revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have
        to start somewhere and move in this direction.
        >  
        > This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need
        to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we
        will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference. 
        Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their
        economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure
        we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing. 
        We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 
        >  
        > Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring
        our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work
        and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we
        must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race
        for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.
        >  
        > I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked
        for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull
        this off.
        >  
        > Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask
        that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to
        be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically
        and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for
        one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again
        know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet
        people like Libermann for VP. 
        >  
        > Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only
        as strong as his army.
        >  
        > For Liberty ,
        > Sarah
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        >  
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
        > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
        > Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.
        > Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you
        can
        > imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.
        >
        > But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say
        that?
        > The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!
        >
        > You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
        > believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
        > drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.
        >
        > -pb
        >
        > --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
        > <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:
        > > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD
        >
      • Laura Ebke
        I’ve watched this play out for a while. I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters. I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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          I’ve watched this play out for a while.  I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters.  I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC members (spread throughout the state) that we have in our newly chartered group in Nebraska are, as well.  Some are more fringe-ish than others of us are, but here in Nebraska, we’re all committed to working within the Party and promoting the cause of liberty that way.   Some want their way in the Party NOW; others recognize that Party change is an evolutionary process that plays out in stages.

           

          Honestly, in our state, there would be only 2 or 3 of us who would be RLC members had they not been inspired to political action by the Paul campaign.  Now it’s time for those of us who are not “on the fringe” to find common ground where we can with those who we think are—and to concentrate on that common ground to try work in the right direction.  Those on the “fringe”—at least those I’ve come into contact with here in my state—are really people who feel passionately about issues, but who have had very little “real world” experience.  Channel that passion into making practically attainable change, and we’ll actually get somewhere.

           

          Just my Midwestern two cents.

           

           

          From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Otto
          Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:29 PM
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

           

          I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

           

          I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

           

          We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

           

          Joel Otto

          Lander, WY

           

          P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

           

          On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



          I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

          The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

          Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

          Doug Harrison
          Minnesota

          I wouldn’t accept Bryan’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in Florida. The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility-accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

           

          We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

           

           

          From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
          Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

           

          Here's a vote for Las Vegas; actually a place I loathe, having 
          attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
          and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
          DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
          thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
          hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
          held in "destination" cities like Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas or even 
          Chicago or Nashville and NOT in places like Detroit (Sorry 
          Michiganders.) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
          little interest. 

          I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
          money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
          all their C-level executives. Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
          ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
          Hoboken NJ, Cheraw NC, and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
          leave the hotel.

          One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
          a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-
          libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
          former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
          stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
          economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
          willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
          really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
          came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
          of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
          genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

          Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
          or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
          House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
          golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
          So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
          tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
          will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
          advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
          like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
          the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
          the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
          LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

          BKD

           

           

           


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        • DGHarrison
          I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were fringies. And I certainly didn t mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them,
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

            If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

            Doug Harrison
            Minnesota

            I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

            I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

            We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

            Joel Otto
            Lander, WY

            P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

            On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

            I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

            The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

            Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

            Doug Harrison
            Minnesota

            I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

             

            We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

             

             

            From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
            Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
            Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

             

            Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
            attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
            and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
            DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
            thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
            hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
            held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
            Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
            Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
            little interest. 

            I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
            money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
            all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
            ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
            Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
            leave the hotel.

            One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
            a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
            libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
            former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
            stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
            economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
            willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
            really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
            came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
            of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
            genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

            Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
            or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
            House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
            golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
            So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
            tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
            will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
            advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
            like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
            the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
            the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
            LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

            BKD





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          • Joel Otto
            Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues. My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable,
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
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              Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

              Joel Otto
              Lander, WY

              On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

              I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

              If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

              Doug Harrison
              Minnesota

              I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

              I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

              We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

              Joel Otto
              Lander, WY

              P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

              On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

              I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

              The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

              Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

              Doug Harrison
              Minnesota

              I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

               

              We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

               

               

              From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
              Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

               

              Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
              attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
              and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
              DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
              thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
              hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
              held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
              Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
              Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
              little interest. 

              I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
              money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
              all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
              ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
              Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
              leave the hotel.

              One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
              a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
              libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
              former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
              stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
              economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
              willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
              really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
              came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
              of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
              genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

              Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
              or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
              House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
              golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
              So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
              tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
              will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
              advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
              like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
              the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
              the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
              LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

              BKD





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            • Vince
              I d like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said: ...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
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                I'd like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said:

                "...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist
                anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."

                In Southwest Florida, a strong majority of the members of the Ron Paul
                and RLC groups were recruited as Republicans, not Libertarians who
                changed parties. And even the former Libertarians around here don't
                fit your harsh description; they're very strong, well-informed,
                strategic, patient, leaders. Please do not make sweeping statements
                about things such as that.

                "...even willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention."

                Pardon me, but $500-$1,000 is a lot of money to some people,
                especially in this economy. I thought we were supposed to be against
                debt spending? If I don't attend an RLC Convention, it doesn't mean
                I'm not a good member of the RLC, it means I can't afford the trip.

                I advance the philosophy of liberty, whether I'm in Detroit or SW Florida.
              • Mr geoff broughton
                I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion. The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                  "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                  a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                  libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                  former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                  stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                  economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                  willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                  really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                  came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                  genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                  Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                  or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                  House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                  golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                  So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                  tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                  will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                  advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                  like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                  the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                  the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                  LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                  BKD

                  The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                  "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."......"So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy"

                  This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                  Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                  What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                  We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                  Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                  Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders
                  Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                  While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                  Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Joel Otto <jotto@...>
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                  Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.


                  Joel Otto
                  Lander, WY

                  On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

                  I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                  If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                  Doug Harrison
                  Minnesota

                  I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                  I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                  We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                  Joel Otto
                  Lander, WY

                  P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                  On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

                  I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                  The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                  Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                  Doug Harrison
                  Minnesota

                  I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                   

                  We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                   

                   

                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                  Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                   

                  Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                  attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                  and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                  DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                  thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                  hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                  held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                  Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                  Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                  little interest. 

                  I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                  money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                  all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                  ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                  Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                  leave the hotel.

                  One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                  a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                  libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                  former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                  stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                  economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                  willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                  really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                  came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                  genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                  Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                  or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                  House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                  golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                  So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                  tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                  will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                  advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                  like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                  the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                  the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                  LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                  BKD





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                • George Blumel
                  Mr Geoff didn t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan s points about arguing minute points. Geoff argues that
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                     


                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                     

                    I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                    "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                    a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                    libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                    former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                    stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                    economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                    willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                    really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                    came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                    of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                    genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                    Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                    or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                    House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                    golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                    So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                    tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                    will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                    advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                    like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                    the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                    the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                    LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                    BKD

                    The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                    "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                    of libertarian philosophy"

                    This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                    Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                    What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                    We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                    Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                    Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                    Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                    While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                    Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                    Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                     

                    Joel Otto

                    Lander, WY

                     

                    On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                    I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                    If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                    Doug Harrison
                    Minnesota

                    I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                     

                    I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                     

                    We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                     

                    Joel Otto

                    Lander, WY

                     

                    P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                  • Mr geoff broughton
                    I wasn t aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same. I
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I wasn't aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same.  I read it as part of a string of invectives that made no coherent sense to cast aspersions at people with whom he didn't agree with or like.  But when you have to split hairs, I guess any hair will do.

                      I wasn't attempting to score any points, but merely reacting, maybe over reacting. But even people who disagreed with Brian's points did it in a way to not even challenge the stupidity of those remarks.  My replay was about as sarcastic as you can get even down to the quote from the bible which was from the movie The Devil's Advocate.

                      I do apologize for posting what I should have kept to myself.  I will try not to allow myself to be baited into this type of discussion again.  Good day to you all.


                       

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:20:16 AM
                      Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                      Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                       


                      From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                       

                      I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                      "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                      a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                      libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                      former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                      stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                      economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                      willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                      really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                      came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                      genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                      Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                      or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                      House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                      golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                      So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                      tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                      will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                      advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                      like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                      the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                      the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                      LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                      BKD

                      The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                      "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy"

                      This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                      Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                      What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                      We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                      Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                      Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                      Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                      While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                      Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                      Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                       

                      Joel Otto

                      Lander, WY

                       

                      On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                      I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                      If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                      Doug Harrison
                      Minnesota

                      I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                       

                      I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                       

                      We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                       

                      Joel Otto

                      Lander, WY

                       

                      P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                       

                      On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



                      I agree with Bryan . Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                      The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                      Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                      Doug Harrison
                      Minnesota

                      I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                       

                      We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                       

                       

                      From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                      Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                      Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                       

                      Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                      attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                      and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                      DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                      thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                      hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                      held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                      Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                      Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                      little interest. 

                      I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                      money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                      all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                      ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                      Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                      leave the hotel.

                      One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                      a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                      libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                      former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                      stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                      economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                      willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                      really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                      came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                      genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                      Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                      or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                      House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                      golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                      So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                      tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                      will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                      advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                      like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                      the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                      the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                      LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                      BKD

                       

                       

                       


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                    • Philip Blumel
                      OK, I ve had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts here. I quit,
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                        projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                        here. I quit, goodbye.

                        -- Philip Blumel
                      • David Johnson
                        ... This is the nature of mailing lists. It s how the medium works. Without a moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                          > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                          > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                          > here. I quit, goodbye.

                          This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                          moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                          topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                          no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                          are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                          that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                          The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                          list: one or more moderators.

                          --
                          David Johnson
                        • Mr geoff broughton
                          I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this. It will not happen again. Geoff ... From: David Johnson To:
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this.  It will not happen again.
                            Geoff

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: David Johnson <david@...>
                            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:26:18 AM
                            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                            On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                            > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                            > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                            > here. I quit, goodbye.

                            This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                            moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                            topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                            no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                            are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                            that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                            The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                            list: one or more moderators.

                            --
                            David Johnson


                          • sarah lovett
                            Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies...obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions....hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                               

                              Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                               

                              Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                               

                              Sovereignty Pact-

                               

                              Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                               

                              I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                               

                              TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                              STATE OF ___________________

                                 WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                                 WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                                 WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                                 WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                                 WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ______________ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                                 WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

                                 WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                                 WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                              Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                                 (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                                 (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States, the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America, and _______'s Congressional delegation

                               

                               

                              Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok-safe.com/files/documents/1/HJR1089_int.pdf

                               

                              We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates....just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                               

                               


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                              Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                              “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                               


                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                               

                              No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                               

                              ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                               

                              Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                               

                              Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                               

                              Sarah

                               

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                              Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                              .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                               


                              From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                               

                              Agreed Phil...

                               

                              -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have won trust.

                              -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.

                              -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of emotional maturity. 

                              -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work" doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they choose to ignore their conservative base.

                              -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is enough really enough? 

                               

                              As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after" the primaries.

                               

                              1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals to do business.

                              2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 

                                   This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural gas etc etc not just drilling.

                                    Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.

                              3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the area.

                              4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas lines, energy plants etc etc.

                              5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have to start somewhere and move in this direction.

                               

                              This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference.  Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing.  We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 

                               

                              Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.

                               

                              I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull this off.

                               

                              Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet people like Libermann for VP. 

                               

                              Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only as strong as his army.

                               

                              For Liberty ,

                              Sarah

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
                              To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
                              Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                              Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you can
                              imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.

                              But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say that?
                              The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!

                              You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
                              believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
                              drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.

                              -pb

                              --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
                              <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:

                              > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD

                            • George Blumel
                              Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment

                                Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I’ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the dollar, no. The dollar’s value is a function of the money supply, not the oil supply.  Much of the increase in the price of oil is, in fact, due to the Fed’s monetary policy –they flooded the world with dollars, causing the inflation which is more obvious in the oil price due to congress’ limitations on supply and the fact that oil is priced in dollars. 

                                 


                                From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:40 PM
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                 

                                Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies.. .obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions. ...hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                                 

                                Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                                 

                                Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                                 

                                Sovereignty Pact-

                                 

                                Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                                 

                                I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida 's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                                 

                                TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                                STATE OF ____________ _______

                                   WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                                   WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                                   WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                                   WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                                   WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ____________ __ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                                   WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States ; and

                                   WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States , 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                                   WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                                Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                                   (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                                   (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States , the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America , and _______'s Congressional delegation

                                 

                                 

                                Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok- safe.com/ files/documents/ 1/HJR1089_ int.pdf

                                 

                                We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates.... just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                                Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                                 


                                From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                 

                                No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                                 

                                ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                                 

                                Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                                 

                                Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                                 

                                Sarah

                                 

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                                Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                                 


                                From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                 

                                Agreed Phil...

                                 

                                -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have wo

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