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Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

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  • Joel Otto
    I have to comment on Bryan and Doug s characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul. We don t need
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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      I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

      I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

      We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

      Joel Otto
      Lander, WY

      P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

      On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

      I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

      The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

      Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

      Doug Harrison
      Minnesota

      I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

       

      We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

       

       

      From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
      Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
      To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
      Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

       

      Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
      attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
      and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
      DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
      thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
      hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
      held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
      Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
      Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
      little interest. 

      I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
      money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
      all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
      ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
      Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
      leave the hotel.

      One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
      a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
      libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
      former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
      stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
      economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
      willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
      really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
      came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
      of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
      genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

      Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
      or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
      House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
      golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
      So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
      tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
      will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
      advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
      like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
      the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
      the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
      LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

      BKD





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    • George Blumel
      ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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        “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

         


        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

         

        No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

         

        ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

         

        Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

         

        Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

         

        Sarah

         

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
        Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

        .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

         


        From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

         

        Agreed Phil...

         

        -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have won trust.

        -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.

        -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of emotional maturity. 

        -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work" doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they choose to ignore their conservative base.

        -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is enough really enough? 

         

        As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after" the primaries.

         

        1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals to do business.

        2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 

             This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural gas etc etc not just drilling.

              Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.

        3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the area.

        4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas lines, energy plants etc etc.

        5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have to start somewhere and move in this direction.

         

        This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference.  Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing.  We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 

         

        Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.

         

        I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull this off.

         

        Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet people like Libermann for VP. 

         

        Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only as strong as his army.

         

        For Liberty ,

        Sarah

         

         

         

         

         

         

         

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
        Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

        Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you can
        imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.

        But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say that?
        The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!

        You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
        believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
        drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.

        -pb

        --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
        <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:

        > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD

      • Steven Burden
        Bryan sai:, ... Yes, I am having the same problem. So far, I can only get a credit on a flight on Northwest, through Orbitz, and within the next twelve months.
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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          Bryan sai:,

          > I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my
          > money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed
          > all their C-level executives.

          Yes, I am having the same problem. So far, I can only get a credit on
          a flight on Northwest, through Orbitz, and within the next twelve
          months. And that is after a $100 penalty.

          The hotel was the same. I had to spend an hour on the phone with the
          manager to finally get a refund (although, it hasn't shown up on my
          card, yet.)

          From now on, I think I will not make all my plans for our conventions
          in advance, and get trip insurance, to boot.

          I don't really care where it is, just that it is held when planned.

          --Steve

          --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
          <bryan.k.donnelly@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here's a vote for Las Vegas; actually a place I loathe, having
          > attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand
          out,
          > and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city"
          > DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere
          and
          > thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the
          > hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be
          > held in "destination" cities like Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas or even
          > Chicago or Nashville and NOT in places like Detroit (Sorry
          > Michiganders.) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so
          > little interest.
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my
          > money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed
          > all their C-level executives. Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd
          > ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with
          > Hoboken NJ, Cheraw NC, and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to
          > leave the hotel.
          >
          >
          >
          > One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that
          is
          > a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-
          > libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The
          > former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal
          > stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history
          or
          > economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or
          even
          > willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They
          > really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they
          > came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute
          points
          > of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a
          > genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take
          seriously.
          >
          >
          >
          > Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the
          LP,
          > or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White
          > House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial
          > golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the
          mainstream.
          > So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat
          > tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy
          > will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly
          > advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular
          programs
          > like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support
          > the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE.
          Currently
          > the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of
          the
          > LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd.
          >
          >
          >
          > BKD
          >
        • Steven Burden
          I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting confused: Energy Independence
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I very much like the direction of this discussion. Several good
            points have been made, but a couple of things seem to be getting
            confused: Energy Independence and Energy Security.

            In our global marketplace, I don't think we can actually achieve
            Energy Independence in the sense that we depend on no other countries
            to supply our total energy requirements.

            What we can do, however is achieve a good bit of Energy security.
            Just as in any other case, however, a good bit of independence and
            security can be achieved by diverse and multi modal supplies. What I
            mean is we need to be able to use many different sources to fully
            provide for our energy requirements.

            That is fine, but when you must have different resources to provide
            for changing energy needs, it is only of limited value if you require
            oil or ethanol sources for transportation, coal, nuke or oil for
            powering our homes and businesses, etc. A cut in one, leads to
            tremendous hardships and great economic damage. Just look at the
            damage that the spikes in crude oil prices have caused, even though
            most of our homes and businesses are not powered by oil.

            In short, it is still too 'insecure'. The best idea for a long term
            solution and comes from Andy Grove, the former CEO of Intel Corp in
            the most recent edition of 'The American'
            (http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-
            contents/our-electric-future)
            What he is proposing is that we set all our energy use is via a
            single medium--electricity--but that we develop ways to convert all
            the disparate sources (thus giving us greater independence from any
            single source, like oil). These conversion systems--would require the
            ability to change from one source to another as rapidly and cheaply
            as possible.

            Needless to say, this is a long term target, and in the short term we
            still need to develop every available resource--drilling, nuke,
            natgas, coal gasification, etc--as quickly as the can be brought
            online.

            --Steve



            --- In RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com, sarah lovett <sarahllovett@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly...I just
            don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work
            that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign
            oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that...
            Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and
            diversity..though they have many other problems...
            >  
            > ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars
            and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar,
            like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the
            supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar
            propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.
            >  
            > Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market
            period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to
            bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed
            about the possibilities is all I meant.
            >  
            > Thanks though George...I should of specified...I was just trying
            not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force
            legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market
            energy solutions...again I think this is viable. 
            > Sarah
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
            > To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
            > Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems
            moribund.
            >
            >
            > .  Bryan 's provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion
            that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is
            just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common
            misunderstanding. She says "… drilling will help prices go down but
            unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like,
            but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is
            preventing them from sending it to China, India etc.) then focusing
            on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on
            opening the energy market period."  Oil is a fungible commodity in a
            world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether
            to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn't matter at all.  More oil
            from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.
            >  
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > From:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro
            ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
            > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
            > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
            > Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems
            moribund.
            >  
            > Agreed Phil...
            >  
            > -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must
            always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after
            we have won trust.
            > -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able
            to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand
            is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a
            strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the
            proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee
            thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.
            > -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be
            angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have
            outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of
            emotional maturity. 
            > -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not
            be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity
            at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work"
            doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we
            will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and
            ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this
            energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they
            choose to ignore their conservative base.
            > -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the
            groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than
            healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people
            united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is
            enough really enough? 
            >  
            > As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is
            part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after"
            the primaries.
            >  
            > 1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress
            continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our
            legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals
            to do business.
            > 2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 
            >      This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural
            gas etc etc not just drilling.
            >       Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we
            demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the
            reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing
            them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this
            alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening
            the energy market period.
            > 3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so
            much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities
            into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with
            utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have
            little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the
            area.
            > 4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas
            lines, energy plants etc etc.
            > 5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities
            then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh
            so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax
            revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have
            to start somewhere and move in this direction.
            >  
            > This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need
            to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we
            will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference. 
            Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their
            economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure
            we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing. 
            We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 
            >  
            > Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring
            our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work
            and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we
            must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race
            for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.
            >  
            > I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked
            for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull
            this off.
            >  
            > Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask
            that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to
            be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically
            and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for
            one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again
            know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet
            people like Libermann for VP. 
            >  
            > Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only
            as strong as his army.
            >  
            > For Liberty ,
            > Sarah
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            >  
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
            > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
            > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
            > Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.
            > Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you
            can
            > imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.
            >
            > But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say
            that?
            > The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!
            >
            > You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
            > believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
            > drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.
            >
            > -pb
            >
            > --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
            > <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:
            > > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD
            >
          • Laura Ebke
            I’ve watched this play out for a while. I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters. I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
            • 0 Attachment

              I’ve watched this play out for a while.  I agree with Joel on the issue of Ron Paul supporters.  I’m one, and I believe that every one of the 20+ RLC members (spread throughout the state) that we have in our newly chartered group in Nebraska are, as well.  Some are more fringe-ish than others of us are, but here in Nebraska, we’re all committed to working within the Party and promoting the cause of liberty that way.   Some want their way in the Party NOW; others recognize that Party change is an evolutionary process that plays out in stages.

               

              Honestly, in our state, there would be only 2 or 3 of us who would be RLC members had they not been inspired to political action by the Paul campaign.  Now it’s time for those of us who are not “on the fringe” to find common ground where we can with those who we think are—and to concentrate on that common ground to try work in the right direction.  Those on the “fringe”—at least those I’ve come into contact with here in my state—are really people who feel passionately about issues, but who have had very little “real world” experience.  Channel that passion into making practically attainable change, and we’ll actually get somewhere.

               

              Just my Midwestern two cents.

               

               

              From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Otto
              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:29 PM
              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

               

              I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

               

              I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

               

              We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

               

              Joel Otto

              Lander, WY

               

              P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

               

              On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



              I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

              The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

              Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

              Doug Harrison
              Minnesota

              I wouldn’t accept Bryan’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in Florida. The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility-accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

               

              We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

               

               

              From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
              Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
              To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

               

              Here's a vote for Las Vegas; actually a place I loathe, having 
              attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
              and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
              DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
              thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
              hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
              held in "destination" cities like Orlando, Miami, Las Vegas or even 
              Chicago or Nashville and NOT in places like Detroit (Sorry 
              Michiganders.) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
              little interest. 

              I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
              money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
              all their C-level executives. Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
              ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
              Hoboken NJ, Cheraw NC, and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
              leave the hotel.

              One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
              a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-
              libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
              former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
              stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
              economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
              willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
              really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
              came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
              of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
              genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

              Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
              or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
              House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
              golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
              So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
              tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
              will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
              advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
              like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
              the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
              the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
              LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

              BKD

               

               

               


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            • DGHarrison
              I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were fringies. And I certainly didn t mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them,
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                Doug Harrison
                Minnesota

                I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                Joel Otto
                Lander, WY

                P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

                I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                Doug Harrison
                Minnesota

                I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                 

                We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                 

                 

                From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                 

                Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                little interest. 

                I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                leave the hotel.

                One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                BKD





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              • Joel Otto
                Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues. My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable,
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                  Joel Otto
                  Lander, WY

                  On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

                  I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                  If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                  Doug Harrison
                  Minnesota

                  I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                  I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                  We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                  Joel Otto
                  Lander, WY

                  P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                  On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

                  I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                  The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                  Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                  Doug Harrison
                  Minnesota

                  I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                   

                  We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                   

                   

                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                  Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                   

                  Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                  attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                  and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                  DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                  thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                  hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                  held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                  Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                  Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                  little interest. 

                  I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                  money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                  all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                  ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                  Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                  leave the hotel.

                  One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                  a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                  libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                  former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                  stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                  economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                  willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                  really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                  came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                  of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                  genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                  Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                  or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                  House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                  golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                  So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                  tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                  will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                  advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                  like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                  the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                  the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                  LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                  BKD





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                • Vince
                  I d like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said: ...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'd like to respond to a couple of things that Bryan Donnelly said:

                    "...a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/pacifist
                    anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."

                    In Southwest Florida, a strong majority of the members of the Ron Paul
                    and RLC groups were recruited as Republicans, not Libertarians who
                    changed parties. And even the former Libertarians around here don't
                    fit your harsh description; they're very strong, well-informed,
                    strategic, patient, leaders. Please do not make sweeping statements
                    about things such as that.

                    "...even willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention."

                    Pardon me, but $500-$1,000 is a lot of money to some people,
                    especially in this economy. I thought we were supposed to be against
                    debt spending? If I don't attend an RLC Convention, it doesn't mean
                    I'm not a good member of the RLC, it means I can't afford the trip.

                    I advance the philosophy of liberty, whether I'm in Detroit or SW Florida.
                  • Mr geoff broughton
                    I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion. The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                      "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                      a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                      libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                      former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                      stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                      economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                      willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                      really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                      came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                      genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                      Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                      or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                      House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                      golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                      So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                      tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                      will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                      advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                      like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                      the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                      the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                      LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                      BKD

                      The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                      "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking."......"So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy"

                      This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                      Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                      What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                      We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                      Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                      Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders
                      Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                      While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                      Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Joel Otto <jotto@...>
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                      Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.


                      Joel Otto
                      Lander, WY

                      On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:

                      I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                      If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                      Doug Harrison
                      Minnesota

                      I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                      I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                      We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty.  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                      Joel Otto
                      Lander, WY

                      P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                      On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:

                      I agree with Bryan. Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                      The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                      Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                      Doug Harrison
                      Minnesota

                      I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                       

                      We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                       

                       

                      From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                      Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                      To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                      Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                       

                      Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                      attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                      and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                      DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                      thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                      hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                      held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                      Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                      Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                      little interest. 

                      I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                      money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                      all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                      ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                      Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                      leave the hotel.

                      One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                      a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                      libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                      former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                      stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                      economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                      willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                      really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                      came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                      of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                      genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                      Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                      or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                      House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                      golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                      So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                      tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                      will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                      advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                      like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                      the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                      the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                      LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                      BKD





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                    • George Blumel
                      Mr Geoff didn t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan s points about arguing minute points. Geoff argues that
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                         


                        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                         

                        I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                        "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                        a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                        libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                        former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                        stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                        economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                        willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                        really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                        came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                        of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                        genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                        Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                        or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                        House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                        golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                        So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                        tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                        will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                        advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                        like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                        the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                        the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                        LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                        BKD

                        The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                        "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                        of libertarian philosophy"

                        This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                        Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                        What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                        We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                        Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                        Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                        Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                        While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                        Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                        To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                        Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                         

                        Joel Otto

                        Lander, WY

                         

                        On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                        I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                        If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                        Doug Harrison
                        Minnesota

                        I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                         

                        I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                         

                        We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                         

                        Joel Otto

                        Lander, WY

                         

                        P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                      • Mr geoff broughton
                        I wasn t aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same. I
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I wasn't aware that Marxism was so synonymous with posting on blogs and arguing minute points that it could be used to describe anyone who did the same.  I read it as part of a string of invectives that made no coherent sense to cast aspersions at people with whom he didn't agree with or like.  But when you have to split hairs, I guess any hair will do.

                          I wasn't attempting to score any points, but merely reacting, maybe over reacting. But even people who disagreed with Brian's points did it in a way to not even challenge the stupidity of those remarks.  My replay was about as sarcastic as you can get even down to the quote from the bible which was from the movie The Devil's Advocate.

                          I do apologize for posting what I should have kept to myself.  I will try not to allow myself to be baited into this type of discussion again.  Good day to you all.


                           

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:20:16 AM
                          Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                          Mr Geoff didn’t add anything to the discussion except maybe to illustrate some of Bryan ’s points about “arguing minute points…”   Geoff argues that libertarians are not Marxist-like as he claims that Bryan said which Bryan clearly did not say –he said that like Marxists they argue minute points of philosophy. His implication was simply that it is not friendly or productive.   Highly ideological types of all persuasions get bogged down like that.   Geoff is still arguing the Ron Paul talking points but with a harder edge. That is over.  It has been a good discussion but now, it too, should be over. Don’t we have a lot of work to do to spread the libertarian message in this campaign season? We need to help elect Republicans who will far more closely heed those principles than the Dems will.  And if you are not too happy with our choices of candidates this time then we should be identifying and grooming candidates among ourselves who will represent us in the next elections. –Geo.

                           


                          From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of Mr geoff broughton
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:24 AM
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                           

                          I am going to respond to the original post that sparked this wonderful discussion.  The text in blue is what BKD wrote, though I changed a few of the more Orwellian parts in bold letters. 

                          "One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                          a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                          libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                          former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                          stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                          economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                          willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                          really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                          came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                          of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                          genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                          Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                          or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                          House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                          golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                          So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                          tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                          will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                          advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                          like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                          the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                          the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                          LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd."

                          BKD

                          The action called for here was to only recruit Republicans who were Liberty leaning, but not too Libertarian.  I would ask for some type of clarification on what is too Libertarian, but the discussion that has followed has done a good enough job of defining that.  So let me reply part and parcel to this wonderfully written piece that made so many good points to spark this wonderful discussion.
                          "Perhaps that is a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-libertarian s rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking.".. ...."So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                          of libertarian philosophy"

                          This statement is absurd.  Marxism is a system where the Government controls everything.  But maybe to someone who believes Big Brother should have every right to do whatever they want to protect us from the bogeyman personal Liberty would sound like anarchism.

                          Isolationist was a term the neocons redefined to discredit the Ron Paul campaign.  Look up the term in a dictionary, there is a difference between what it means and how it is used.  Pacifist?  Even the most far out tin foil hat wearing conspiracy behind every action person I have encountered  is not a pacifist.  So you must be using that term to define anyone who wants to debate Foreign Policy and what our rightful role in the world should be.  Since it is difficult to defend one nation invading another nation, then installing a puppet government that would collapse within five minutes of us withdrawing our military, you can call people who question this a pacifist and not have to debate any real points with them. 

                          What will follow next is taking up the Bill O'reilly call for these pacifist who dare question Big Brother or his motives to be carted off as an enemy combatant and await his military tribunal  after being questioned with enhanced interrogation techniques.  Our great nation must be preserved at any cost right?


                          We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudlyadvocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programslike Social Security, and drug legalization.  
                          Who is  the "we're" referring to?  I have not seen any RLC blog or literature that did anything close to this.  The "military defeat" is an obvious reference to anyone who questions our Governments right to rule the world.  maybe the "we're" was a typo for a "they're".

                          Currentlythe RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders

                          Which GOP leaders?  The ones who had nearly complete control of the Government from 2000 to 2006 and expanded the scope of the Federal Government more then any Democrat since LBJ or FDR?  The same GOP leaders who are currently bankrupting our nation with cost plus contractor in the middle east?

                          While I don't agree with the more far out conspiracies put forth by the Alex Jones crowd, I agree that Government should never be trusted, ever.  We should remain eternally vigilant to keep our personal liberties.  Thanks for inspiring this terrific discussion with all your valid points Brian.
                          Behold, I send you forth as sheep amidst the wolves ." - Matthew 10:16

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Joel Otto <jotto@lisco. com>
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:42:09 AM
                          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                          Doug, you have made some excellent points - we should focus on good, practical, mainstream issues.  My point is that while keeping our core message reasonable, we should be flexible in tailoring our one-on-one outreach to issues that are important to the individual we are approaching.  As Sarah said, different people have different issues that are most important to them.  I do think we need to walk a fine line between accepting support from the fringe, and being identified with them.

                           

                          Joel Otto

                          Lander, WY

                           

                          On Aug 11, 2008, at 11:49 PM, DGHarrison wrote:



                          I certainly did not mean to imply that all Ron Paul supporters were "fringies." And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the RLC was populated by them, since they basically came on board to support Paul, and when Paul put his campaign on hold, most of them bounced to third party candidates. I hope that my main point did come through, and that is that while there may be some truth to some of the conspiracy theories (or at least that the potential for the abuse may exist), the more pragmatic issue is getting Republicans elected to office. Those that I called "fringies" are the ones that caused more harm to Paul's campaign than they helped it. In my mind, the have the wrong priorities. Their conspiracy talk may appeal to a minority of Republicans and a minority of non partisans, but our task in the RLC is to reach the majority of Republicans with a message that they can feel comfortable with. The pragmatic thing to do is to appeal to the majority with issues that we can all agree upon -- less spending, less taxation, less government interference and a host of other issues that appeal to conservatives. If we focus on the things that matter to the majority, won't we be more successful? If good candidates can be placed without tagging them as believing in 9/11 conspiracies and other such, we win. If we tag them as believing in space aliens, we lose. Space aliens and "9/11 was an inside job" are equal in the minds of the typical Republican voter. Can't we just stay away from that provocative, divisive stuff?

                          If any RLCer was offended by my use of the term "fringies," I apologize to them. But at the same time, I appeal to your good sense in fighting a good fight, a smart fight, for the hearts and minds of the majority of Republicans and other conservatives.

                          Doug Harrison
                          Minnesota

                          I have to comment on Bryan and Doug's characterizations of the fringe elements of the RLC and in particular the people brought in by Ron Paul.  We don't need to disparage those who want more liberty than us.  Sarah's comments urging tolerance were right on.

                           

                          I have approached several strong supporters of liberty here in Wyoming trying to get people together to be effective politically.  I have tended to try to downplay the conspiracy elements of the liberty movement, only to be corrected.  Some of the most dedicated supporters of liberty and political action are motivated by a world view that includes active evil.  I think conspiracy theories are a largely a waste of time, but I am happy that good candidates have the votes and backing of those who believe that stuff.

                           

                          We will be most effective if we can build a coalition.   I am a Ron Paul supporter and believe we can best support our troops by bringing them all home, now.  I am a member of the WY RLC and a founder of a non partisan group Wyoming Campaign for Liberty .  I like to think the RLC tent is big enough for people like me and other "fringies" as Doug calls us.

                           

                          Joel Otto

                          Lander, WY

                           

                          P. S. The quote about the five million caskets in Georgia was posted to the RLC group accidentally by John Conway, who has apologized.  He has a separate email list that he usually sends this stuff to.  I enjoy his posts.  The casket story turned out to have a perfectly reasonable explanation.  I found the whole thing entertaining and informative.  Maybe we could lighten up a little?

                           

                          On Aug 11, 2008, at 9:19 AM, DGHarrison wrote:



                          I agree with Bryan . Well said. And I've been pissing into the wind from the start, trying to get people to stop doing the Chicken Little over conspiracy theories that do nothing but scare away the honest American who just wants the government to stop taxing and spending, regulating businesses into bankruptcy, and interfering in personal lives.

                          The fringies believe it is their responsibility to convert everyone to the cause of fighting conspiracy, when the cause is actually much simpler: getting real Republicans elected to office. Even if the conspiracies turn out to be true, having failed to put honest Republicans into office means the conspirators will just continue unchallenged, regardless of the will of the people or of the fringies.

                          Standing on a street corner shouting about the end of the world does nothing but repel people. I have finally unplugged from several Ron Paul campaign groups, simply because all that's left are the crazy folks. All the Chicken Littles have scattered to their respective corners of the barnyard, there to cluck about the campaigns of third party candidates. I hope we can all get back to the business -- Republican business -- of getting good men and women into office.

                          Doug Harrison
                          Minnesota

                          I wouldn’t accept  Bryan ’s depiction of the RLC as moribund –at least not in  Florida . The RLC-FL is beginning to attract Republicans of libertarian principles. Sure, we have our share of cultists but so does every caucus have its fringe.  There is a battle of sorts waging in Florida mainly by a certain part of the state party leadership who see only the fringies and not the solid main body of the RLC-FL which has serious, honorable leadership and has recruited numerous new Republican party registrants ready to apply their freedom-loving and responsibility- accepting able bodies to the cause under the Republican banner. Some Repub party leaders at the county level are observing this and will surely communicate that to the state leadership. It takes time. Patience is required and so is civility along with understanding that our principles need to be taught to our fellows in the party, many of whom went to government schools (you know what I mean). 

                           

                          We should, however, take much of what Bryan says here about the RLC seriously if we are to be successful in inculcating libertarian ideas in the Repub party.  I’d buy him a drink for those observations for the good of the RLC and for that sound advice –but he doesn’t drink. So, I’ll just give him an “attaboy” and leave it at that.  –Geo.  

                           

                           

                          From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ]On Behalf Of Bryan K. Donnelly
                          Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:53 AM
                          To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                          Subject: [RLC-Action] Relieved, no  Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                           

                          Here's a vote for  Las Vegas ; actually a place I loathe, having 
                          attended numerous trade shows there. Everybody has his/her hand out, 
                          and I don't drink, gamble, or (usually) "carouse." But "sin city" 
                          DOES have a plethora of cheap flights from just about everywhere and 
                          thousands of hotel rooms (And THAT is in only one hotel, of the 
                          hundreds there.) May I suggest that ALL RLC future conventions be 
                          held in "destination" cities like Orlando,  Miami ,  Las Vegas or even 
                          Chicago or  Nashville and NOT in places like  Detroit (Sorry 
                          Michiganders. ) One suspects that the venue was one reason for so 
                          little interest. 

                          I'm relieved too; though I'm having a bitch of a time recovering my 
                          money (or even changing destination) from Orbitz.com. I've emailed 
                          all their C-level executives.  Detroit is perhaps the LAST place I'd 
                          ever go absent some compelling motivation; right up there with 
                          Hoboken  NJ ,  Cheraw  NC , and Oracle AZ. Actually I planned never to 
                          leave the hotel.

                          One more point; the RLC seems moribund at this point. Perhaps that is 
                          a result of recruiting primarily isolationist/ pacifist anarcho-
                          libertarians rather than REPUBLICANS with libertarian thinking. The 
                          former, largely wrapped up in their fantasies of creating the ideal 
                          stateless libertarian pacific millennium and oblivious to history or 
                          economic realities, are generally not organizers, organized, or even 
                          willing to come up with $500-$1000 to attend a convention. They 
                          really belong in their natural home; the oblivious LP whence they 
                          came. So, let `em continue, Marxist like, arguing their minute points 
                          of libertarian philosophy in online blogs and let's start being a 
                          genuine REPUBLICAN group again; people the party will take seriously.

                          Folks who desert the party for quixotic write-in candidacies, the LP, 
                          or even schadenfreudlische hope for socialist Obama in the White 
                          House so we can then come back "pure" and sweep in the millennial 
                          golden age, will NEVER be respected nor consulted by the mainstream.
                          So genuinely libertarian ideas (school vouchers, tort reform, flat 
                          tax, privatization etc.) that have real chance of becoming policy 
                          will never be heard. We're too busy "leading with the chin" loudly 
                          advocating military defeat, immediate elimination of popular programs 
                          like Social Security, and drug legalization. Even though I support 
                          the latter two, NEITHER will get ANYBODY elected ANYWHERE. Currently 
                          the RLC is a laughingstock among GOP leaders; seen as a branch of the
                          LP "pocket protector" puerile "rule or ruin" idealist crowd. 

                          BKD

                           

                           

                           


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                        • Philip Blumel
                          OK, I ve had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts here. I quit,
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                            projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                            here. I quit, goodbye.

                            -- Philip Blumel
                          • David Johnson
                            ... This is the nature of mailing lists. It s how the medium works. Without a moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                              > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                              > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                              > here. I quit, goodbye.

                              This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                              moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                              topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                              no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                              are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                              that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                              The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                              list: one or more moderators.

                              --
                              David Johnson
                            • Mr geoff broughton
                              I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this. It will not happen again. Geoff ... From: David Johnson To:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I offer my most sincere and humble apology for taking part in this.  It will not happen again.
                                Geoff

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: David Johnson <david@...>
                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:26:18 AM
                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                                On Tuesday 12 August 2008 10:03:34 am Philip Blumel wrote:
                                > OK, I've had it. The purpose of this group is to discuss activism and
                                > projects of the RLC. Yet, such posts make up a minority of the posts
                                > here. I quit, goodbye.

                                This is the nature of mailing lists. It's how the medium works. Without a
                                moderator, people will respond to posts, and those responses will stray off
                                topic. In economic terms, this is called the Tragedy of the Commons. It does
                                no good griping at at the villagers grazing their sheep in the commons, they
                                are only acting as rational human beings would. Beyond the occasional whine
                                that posts are off topic, there is no cost to making off topic posts.

                                The solution here is the same solution for the pettiness on the discussion
                                list: one or more moderators.

                                --
                                David Johnson


                              • sarah lovett
                                Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies...obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions....hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                                   

                                  Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                                   

                                  Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                                   

                                  Sovereignty Pact-

                                   

                                  Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                                   

                                  I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                                   

                                  TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                                  STATE OF ___________________

                                     WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                                     WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                                     WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                                     WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                                     WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ______________ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                                     WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

                                     WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                                     WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                                  Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                                     (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                                     (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States, the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America, and _______'s Congressional delegation

                                   

                                   

                                  Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok-safe.com/files/documents/1/HJR1089_int.pdf

                                   

                                  We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates....just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                                   

                                   


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: George Blumel <gblumel@...>
                                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit. RLC seems moribund.

                                  “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                                   


                                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                   

                                  No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                                   

                                  ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                                   

                                  Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                                   

                                  Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                                   

                                  Sarah

                                   

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                  .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                                   


                                  From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                   

                                  Agreed Phil...

                                   

                                  -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have won trust.

                                  -You must have an ideal a "perfect picture" so to speak to be able to lead in a consistent manner.  This does not mean that a magic wand is waved and we return to pure markets, it simply means that having a strong foundation in the role of government will seldom lead to the proverbial "flip-flop".  A strong base of like minded yet fee thinking people is key to preventing complacency and apathy.

                                  -We cannot wake people up to the truth and expect them to not be angered, overwhelmed, and sometimes even paralyzed.  We must have outlets for all reactions, all levels of education, all levels of emotional maturity. 

                                  -The GOP does not consider us to be a joke otherwise they would not be trying so desperately to limit our freedom of speech and activity at the local levels.  Just because we know how politics "work" doesn't mean we have to subscribe to doing things the same way....we will end up with the same result.  We have people energized, and ready to move and act...the GOP would be smart to embrace this energy.  I think they are coming around and shame on them if they choose to ignore their conservative base.

                                  -Realize everyone has their "biggest" issue and even within the groups there will be disagreements.  I however see nothing more than healthy debate with the final result being a large group of people united for a similar cause...and important one at that....When is enough really enough? 

                                   

                                  As far as the drilling...I have a few thoughts on that and that is part of my campaign.  Look for Florida First on my website "after" the primaries.

                                   

                                  1. We must re-affirm our state sovereignty.  While congress continues to argue we say go ahead...but Florida is first.  Our legislators must do their job and protect the freedom of individuals to do business.

                                  2. We must encourage all forms of energy through free markets. 

                                       This includes nuclear, sugar cane, organe pulp, pine, natural gas etc etc not just drilling.

                                        Side note drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.

                                  3. Encourage city councils "the homerule everyone loves so much"  to pass resolutions allowing competing energy and utilities into cities.  Unfortunately most municipalities are plagued with utility monopolies, so we can drill all we want but it will have little effect if your county will not allow competing energy in the area.

                                  4. Think about how many jobs could be created building natural gas lines, energy plants etc etc.

                                  5. Additionally, if utility monopolies are not government entities then they would pay property tax (many do not) and walh those oh so important education dollars would increase.  Increasing tax revenue is not how I would like it to go idealistically, but we have to start somewhere and move in this direction.

                                   

                                  This can all be done without government incentives.. .we just need to invite the market here and let them know Florida is first and we will do our job to protect the market from unnecessary interference.  Anyway, it can be done, it is being done in other states and their economies are turning around (quickly I may add) but I am not so sure we want to focus on just drilling...it could be terribly polarizing.  We must focus on energy diversity ( Americans love diversity). 

                                   

                                  Just my thoughts, and as grassroots activist we should be inspiring our leaders to move toward such things. We all know how politics work and its about the "big guys" owning all the horses in the race...we must find a way to remind the horses that we actually win the race for them no matter how much the "big guys" may feed them.

                                   

                                  I know it so much more complicated than this...or is it?  We worked for TPA...nearly as idealistic.  If packaged correctly we could pull this off.

                                   

                                  Bryan , though I understand your concerns and strategy,  I just ask that you not be so disparaging, I say the RLC is a great place to be.  And technically we are all republicans that have systematically and incrementally been disbanded in these here United States...I for one would like to say I am a Republican and people would once again know what republican means...its pretty hard to clarify when we vet people like Libermann for VP. 

                                   

                                  Keep up the good fight gentlemen but remember that a leader is only as strong as his army.

                                   

                                  For Liberty ,

                                  Sarah

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Philip Blumel < pblumel@bellsouth. net >
                                  To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 11:11:55 AM
                                  Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                  Bryan , there is a backstory to this convention business, as you can
                                  imagine. I don't know the story well enough to tell it, though.

                                  But as for the RLC being moribund, how can any *Floridian* say that?
                                  The Florida RLC is hot right now, hotter than it ever was!

                                  You were part of one of the Tally trips and rallies for TABOR and I
                                  believe the next project for the rest of the year will be offshore
                                  drilling. We will are currently voting to approve this idea.

                                  -pb

                                  --- In RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com, "Bryan K. Donnelly"
                                  <bryan.k.donnelly@ ...> wrote:

                                  > the RLC seems moribund at this point. > BKD

                                • George Blumel
                                  Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 12, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                    Thank you for taking he time to explain those statements. I’ll buy into your sovereignty idea alright. But as for the price of oil affecting the value of the dollar, no. The dollar’s value is a function of the money supply, not the oil supply.  Much of the increase in the price of oil is, in fact, due to the Fed’s monetary policy –they flooded the world with dollars, causing the inflation which is more obvious in the oil price due to congress’ limitations on supply and the fact that oil is priced in dollars. 

                                     


                                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:40 PM
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                     

                                    Essentially a drop in oil prices which is induced by increased supply (or any large commodity traded with the dollar) will put downward pressure on our dollar, once our dollar drops more or is perceived to drop more then the likelihood increases that our foreign debts will be called and/or "monies" shifted to competing currencies.. .obviously we did this to ourselves or the Fed did by  not reporting the actual money supply, so all projections and speculation have not been made under realistic market assumptions. ...hence and increase in oil could very likely be the straw that breaks the dollar's back...

                                     

                                    Also if you follow the price gold and the price of oil  over the past they generally follow the each other...

                                     

                                    Generally, much more complicated than this and also related to deficit spending ,"printing" etc but the price of oil does have an impact on our dollar and therefore we would be amiss not to think the supply of oil is of no concern.

                                     

                                    Sovereignty Pact-

                                     

                                    Actually just an idea, just as we have candidates sign the liberty pact I think we should get candidates, officials to sign a sovereignty pact...maybe something along these lines

                                     

                                    I So-n-So recognize that each individual and each state is sovereign unto themselves. As a public official, I will   recognize and uphold Florida 's sovereignty under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution. In doing such I will support or introduce the following resolution during my service.

                                     

                                    TENTH AMENDMENT - STATE SOVEREIGNTY RESOLUTION

                                    STATE OF ____________ _______

                                       WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States reads as follows: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."; and

                                       WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal power as being that specifically delegated by the United States Constitution and no more; and

                                       WHEREAS, The scope of power defined by the 10th Amendment means that the federal government was created by the states specifically to be an agent of the states; and

                                       WHEREAS, Today, in 2008, the states are demonstrably treated as agents of the federal government; and

                                       WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal government by the ____________ __ General Assembly without any response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

                                       WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States ; and

                                       WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York v. United States , 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory processes of the states; and

                                       WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations and some now pending from the present administration and from Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now, therefore,

                                    Be It Resolved by the ________ of the _____th General Assembly of the State of ________, the __________ concurring herein:

                                       (1) That the State of ___________ hereby claims sovereignty under the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and delegated to the federal government by the United States Constitution.

                                       (2) That this serve as Notice and Demand to the federal government, as our agent, to cease and desist, effective immediately, mandates that are beyond the scope of its constitutionally delegated powers. Be It Further Resolved, That copies of this Resolution be sent to the President of the United States , the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate of each state's legislature of the United States of America , and _______'s Congressional delegation

                                     

                                     

                                    Oklahoma just did it : http://www.ok- safe.com/ files/documents/ 1/HJR1089_ int.pdf

                                     

                                    We don't really need it because we already have this, however, it could help us gage our candidates.  Also, it can be used to remind others that we can just drill, we do not need permission from the federal government.  Imagine how many things we could remind legislators about with this resolution, and simultaneously take away their excuse to complain about unfunded mandates.... just a thought.  Once elected I would certainly love to sponsor this...Sarah

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:39:59 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                    “..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...”  Sarah,  How does an oversupply of oil crash the dollar?   An oversupply of dollars does, and, indeed, is causing the cost of oil rise. “They” are limiting the supply of oil to keep the dollar propped up? How is that?  Also, may I ask what is a sovereignty pact?  -Geo.

                                     


                                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                    Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 5:13 PM
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                     

                                    No you are absolutely right, I understand that perfectly... I just don't want to give the impression if we allow the free market to work that means we get to keep the oil or become less dependent on foreign oil...I agree drill but it is short sighted to focus only on that... Brazil is a good example of general energy independence and diversity..though they have many other problems...

                                     

                                    ..also there is this little issue of oil being traded in dollars and the possibility of over supply completely crashing our dollar, like with all commodities there is an extremely good reason the supply of oil is being limited they are trying to keep the dollar propped up a bit longer...but that is a whole nother discussion.

                                     

                                    Anyway, I 'm just saying we should work on a free energy market period..I don't care what it is as long as the market is allowed to bring it and makes the prices go down...lets not be too one eyed about the possibilities is all I meant.

                                     

                                    Thanks though George...I should of specified... I was just trying not to be as long winded as I already am...so my action is to force legislators to support a sovereignty pact that allows for free market energy solutions... again I think this is viable. 

                                     

                                    Sarah

                                     

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: George Blumel <gblumel@bellsouth. net>
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:26:47 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                    .  Bryan ’s provocative thoughts started a wholesome discussion that several have added insights to. One is this from Sarah. There is just one point I would like to correct her on that is a common misunderstanding. She says ”… drilling will help prices go down but unless we demand they sell the oil to us (not real free market like, but the reality is they are there to make profit and nothing is preventing them from sending it to China , India etc.) then focusing on this alone leaves us without other options.  So we must focus on opening the energy market period.”  Oil is a fungible commodity in a world market so it makes no difference who the oil is sold to whether to a US company or a foreign one, it doesn’t matter at all.  More oil from anywhere, lower prices for all.  Drill!  Drill!  Drill!   -Geo.

                                     


                                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com ] On Behalf Of sarah lovett
                                    Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:53 PM
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Relieved, no Detroit . RLC seems moribund.

                                     

                                    Agreed Phil...

                                     

                                    -It takes all kinds of people to make a movement strong.  We must always begin with acceptance first education and guidance only after we have wo

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