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Re: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger

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  • Randy Kleine
    Hello, Dave, I am interested in the fact that you are a committed Christian, and that you teach Crown Financial materials in Sunday School (Larry Burkett).
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 24 10:36 PM
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      Hello, Dave,

      I am interested in the fact that you are a committed Christian, and that you teach Crown Financial materials in Sunday School (Larry Burkett). However, are you aware that, in adopting 501(c)3 and state incorporation status, churches replace the sovereignty of God with that of the State? No wonder churches and pastors are "muzzled" regarding their First Amendment rights. Artificial "persons" have no Constitutional guarantees and protections. Best regards,

       

      Randy Kleine, Milford, Ohio

      --- On Sun, 3/23/08, dave <uzogood2000@...> wrote:

      From: dave <uzogood2000@...>
      Subject: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger
      To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, March 23, 2008, 6:05 PM

      Howdy,
       
      I apologize, I repsonded to a thread without giving you my introduction. My name is David Stenger. I am a resident of Fort Lauderdale, and work for Broward County. I have been rather apathetic and silent in government until I met other rather interesting libertarian people like my brother-in-law. After several encounters and hours of discussion with them I decided it was time to pick my butt up and do something about the insanity that is in our government.. . enter Ron Paul. I don't mean to seem cliche, but he cured my apathy. It always occured to me that in order to participate efficiently, you must join the two party system. However, I learned that to be effective, Republican is the party for libertarians to leverage themselves effectively.
       
      I am an avid homebrewer of wine and beer, a member of the American Homebrewer's Association, and have worked towards the legalization of this hobby in Alabama, albeit in letters only. Luckily, Florida has been kind to those of us that brew our own beer! I attend Community Christian Church in Tamarac, FL and teach Crown Financial Bible Study. I defend the right to life, but believe this should be a state issue. I also write annually to legislators in order to reduce mandatory minimum sentences on non-violent drug offenders. The war on drugs does not work and is a waste of our money!
       
      I think the RLC offers a great avenue for libertarian ideas to be effevtive, and it is a joy to join.
       
      Happy Easter,
       
      David Stenger
       
       


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    • Michelle Murphy
      I don t think the church has done that, that is what the state has done to the church. If they do not claim that status, then the money collected by the
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 24 11:21 PM
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        I don't think the church has done that, that is what the state has done to the church.  If they do not claim that status, then the money collected by the church goes to the state.  In return the state puts a few constraints on the church (such as no bias in politics, etc), with the possibility of additional meddling.  This tax system we have is really a mess.

        Michelle
         
        On Mar 24, 2008, at 10:36 PM, Randy Kleine wrote:

        Hello, Dave,

        I am interested in the fact that you are a committed Christian, and that you teach Crown Financial materials in Sunday School (Larry Burkett). However, are you aware that, in adopting 501(c)3 and state incorporation status, churches replace the sovereignty of God with that of the State? No wonder churches and pastors are "muzzled" regarding their First Amendment rights. Artificial "persons" have no Constitutional guarantees and protections. Best regards,

         

        Randy Kleine, Milford, Ohio

        --- On Sun, 3/23/08, dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger
        To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Sunday, March 23, 2008, 6:05 PM


        Howdy,
         
        I apologize, I repsonded to a thread without giving you my introduction. My name is David Stenger. I am a resident of Fort Lauderdale, and work for Broward County. I have been rather apathetic and silent in government until I met other rather interesting libertarian people like my brother-in-law. After several encounters and hours of discussion with them I decided it was time to pick my butt up and do something about the insanity that is in our government.. . enter Ron Paul. I don't mean to seem cliche, but he cured my apathy. It always occured to me that in order to participate efficiently, you must join the two party system. However, I learned that to be effective, Republican is the party for libertarians to leverage themselves effectively.
         
        I am an avid homebrewer of wine and beer, a member of the American Homebrewer's Association, and have worked towards the legalization of this hobby in Alabama, albeit in letters only. Luckily, Florida has been kind to those of us that brew our own beer! I attend Community Christian Church in Tamarac, FL and teach Crown Financial Bible Study. I defend the right to life, but believe this should be a state issue. I also write annually to legislators in order to reduce mandatory minimum sentences on non-violent drug offenders. The war on drugs does not work and is a waste of our money!
         
        I think the RLC offers a great avenue for libertarian ideas to be effevtive, and it is a joy to join.
         
        Happy Easter,
         
        David Stenger
         
         


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      • dave
        Oh, for sure. I agree that if there was no personal income tax, our church leadership would grow a spine instead of remaining silent on issues that might be
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 25 2:51 AM
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          Oh, for sure. I agree that if there was no personal income tax, our church leadership would grow a spine instead of remaining silent on issues that might be regarded as political.
           
          Dave

           
          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Michelle Murphy <mnmurphy@...>
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:21:51 AM
          Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger

          I don't think the church has done that, that is what the state has done to the church.  If they do not claim that status, then the money collected by the church goes to the state.  In return the state puts a few constraints on the church (such as no bias in politics, etc), with the possibility of additional meddling.  This tax system we have is really a mess.


          Michelle
           
          On Mar 24, 2008, at 10:36 PM, Randy Kleine wrote:

          Hello, Dave,

          I am interested in the fact that you are a committed Christian, and that you teach Crown Financial materials in Sunday School (Larry Burkett). However, are you aware that, in adopting 501(c)3 and state incorporation status, churches replace the sovereignty of God with that of the State? No wonder churches and pastors are "muzzled" regarding their First Amendment rights. Artificial "persons" have no Constitutional guarantees and protections. Best regards,

           

          Randy Kleine, Milford, Ohio

          --- On Sun, 3/23/08, dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger
          To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Sunday, March 23, 2008, 6:05 PM


          Howdy,
           
          I apologize, I repsonded to a thread without giving you my introduction. My name is David Stenger. I am a resident of Fort Lauderdale, and work for Broward County. I have been rather apathetic and silent in government until I met other rather interesting libertarian people like my brother-in-law. After several encounters and hours of discussion with them I decided it was time to pick my butt up and do something about the insanity that is in our government.. . enter Ron Paul. I don't mean to seem cliche, but he cured my apathy. It always occured to me that in order to participate efficiently, you must join the two party system. However, I learned that to be effective, Republican is the party for libertarians to leverage themselves effectively.
           
          I am an avid homebrewer of wine and beer, a member of the American Homebrewer's Association,  and have worked towards the legalization of this hobby in Alabama, albeit in letters only. Luckily, Florida has been kind to those of us that brew our own beer! I attend Community Christian Church in Tamarac, FL and teach Crown Financial Bible Study. I defend the right to life, but believe this should be a state issue. I also write annually to legislators in order to reduce mandatory minimum sentences on non-violent drug offenders. The war on drugs does not work and is a waste of our money!
           
          I think the RLC offers a great avenue for libertarian ideas to be effevtive, and it is a joy to join.
           
          Happy Easter,
           
          David Stenger
           
           


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        • Randy Kleine
          No, the proceeds (tithe collections, donations) of churches are not taxable unless: 1. they sell merchandise for profit, as in a business 2. they file for
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 25 4:35 AM
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            No, the proceeds (tithe collections, donations) of churches are not taxable unless:

             

            1. they sell merchandise for profit, as in a business

            2. they file for State incorporation, which converts the pastor and staff to the status of "employees"

             

            What typical churches today want to do is to grow like business enterprises; therefore, they must act like business enterprises in order to survive. With size becomes both financial obligations and liabilities (in a vicious cycle). To protect the church's assets, church leaders seek State favor through the limited liability features of State incorporation. Pastors and staff want retirement plans and health insurance, etc.

             

            It's the American way: and, in an attempt to keep a going concern "going," the vital message of the Church is sacrificed for the pottage of the State. Of course, the State wants and seeks such control and authorizes an army called lawyers and accountants (even Christian ones) carefully to explain to the Church what it must do to avoid State punishment (the tax system, complete with tax courts where Constitutional guarantees do not operate.

             

            The Church (some do) could organize itself in a way to avoid entanglement with the State; however, most choose the State over the Gospel.

             

            Randy Kleine, Milford, Ohio

            --- On Tue, 3/25/08, Michelle Murphy <mnmurphy@...> wrote:

            From: Michelle Murphy <mnmurphy@...>
            Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, March 25, 2008, 2:21 AM

            I don't think the church has done that, that is what the state has done to the church.  If they do not claim that status, then the money collected by the church goes to the state.  In return the state puts a few constraints on the church (such as no bias in politics, etc), with the possibility of additional meddling.  This tax system we have is really a mess.


            Michelle
             
            On Mar 24, 2008, at 10:36 PM, Randy Kleine wrote:

            Hello, Dave,

            I am interested in the fact that you are a committed Christian, and that you teach Crown Financial materials in Sunday School (Larry Burkett). However, are you aware that, in adopting 501(c)3 and state incorporation status, churches replace the sovereignty of God with that of the State? No wonder churches and pastors are "muzzled" regarding their First Amendment rights. Artificial "persons" have no Constitutional guarantees and protections. Best regards,

             

            Randy Kleine, Milford, Ohio

            --- On Sun, 3/23/08, dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: dave <uzogood2000@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: [RLC-Action] Introduction: David Stenger
            To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Sunday, March 23, 2008, 6:05 PM


            Howdy,
             
            I apologize, I repsonded to a thread without giving you my introduction. My name is David Stenger. I am a resident of Fort Lauderdale, and work for Broward County. I have been rather apathetic and silent in government until I met other rather interesting libertarian people like my brother-in-law. After several encounters and hours of discussion with them I decided it was time to pick my butt up and do something about the insanity that is in our government.. . enter Ron Paul. I don't mean to seem cliche, but he cured my apathy. It always occured to me that in order to participate efficiently, you must join the two party system. However, I learned that to be effective, Republican is the party for libertarians to leverage themselves effectively.
             
            I am an avid homebrewer of wine and beer, a member of the American Homebrewer's Association,  and have worked towards the legalization of this hobby in Alabama, albeit in letters only. Luckily, Florida has been kind to those of us that brew our own beer! I attend Community Christian Church in Tamarac, FL and teach Crown Financial Bible Study. I defend the right to life, but believe this should be a state issue. I also write annually to legislators in order to reduce mandatory minimum sentences on non-violent drug offenders. The war on drugs does not work and is a waste of our money!
             
            I think the RLC offers a great avenue for libertarian ideas to be effevtive, and it is a joy to join.
             
            Happy Easter,
             
            David Stenger
             
             


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            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.




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          • Sandy Harmon
            Mixing politics and religion is the worst thing that could happen in our country and probably the only good thing to come out of the tax code is the prevention
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 26 8:04 AM
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                 Mixing politics and religion is the worst thing that could happen in our country and probably the only good thing to come out of the tax code is the prevention of same.
                The last thing we need is churches cramming their particular beliefs down people's throats in the political arena, the christian fundamentalists are what has helped to destroy the GOP but running off good people who disagree with the premise that we must all love Jesus to be good citizens.
                And if you bible thumpers disagree with the above statement, consider this:  Islam is the fastest growning religion in the world, do YOU want these people running the entire political show, including all elections?
                While you ponder the Constitution and enjoy the incredible foresight of the founding fathers, decrying those who claim it is a "living" document which can be changed on a whim, consider that you are not smarter than those founders and have no business trying to tweak it for your own religious benefit.
                But what do I know?  I'm just a lowly seminary graduate, former minister and former history teacher.
              Sandy Harmon
               
              NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection, Benjamin Franklin was right.
            • George Blumel
              What is your basis for the claim of Executive Orders, below. Please site same. Or, try to stick with facts in future. Thank you, Geo. ... From: Sandy Harmon
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 26 5:39 PM
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                What is your basis for the claim of Executive Orders, below. Please site same. Or, try to stick with facts in future.  Thank you, Geo.
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:04 AM
                Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Introduction: David Stenger

                   Mixing politics and religion is the worst thing that could happen in our country and probably the only good thing to come out of the tax code is the prevention of same.
                  The last thing we need is churches cramming their particular beliefs down people's throats in the political arena, the christian fundamentalists are what has helped to destroy the GOP but running off good people who disagree with the premise that we must all love Jesus to be good citizens.
                  And if you bible thumpers disagree with the above statement, consider this:  Islam is the fastest growning religion in the world, do YOU want these people running the entire political show, including all elections?
                  While you ponder the Constitution and enjoy the incredible foresight of the founding fathers, decrying those who claim it is a "living" document which can be changed on a whim, consider that you are not smarter than those founders and have no business trying to tweak it for your own religious benefit.
                  But what do I know?  I'm just a lowly seminary graduate, former minister and former history teacher.
                Sandy Harmon
                 
                NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection, Benjamin Franklin was right.


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG.
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              • Michelle Murphy
                Yes, I am quite sure the founders were quite interested in religious freedom. The idea being that people would not be forced into a particular state sponsored
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 26 6:25 PM
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                  Yes, I am quite sure the founders were quite interested in religious freedom.  The idea being that people would not be forced into a particular state sponsored worship.  At the same time, Christianity has always been a part of the political landscape, even then, and it flourished with this freedom.  The current definition of church and state has changed the landscape in this country quite a bit; and it has been used as an attack against religious freedom in this country, to further the causes of humanism, communism and fascism.  It has given the "state" a say so in religious matters, regulating it at every turn.  And then the media has provided us with a biased view on these matters.  I think one of the major problems is not so much that Christianity and so forth is just entering politics (it is not); it is that Christianity has been redefined and has horrible goals that are not backed up by Biblical truth.  People claiming to be Bible thumpers are also sending funds to Israel to propagate end-of-times, and support on-going violence overseas without an actual declaration of war - all based on propaganda.  This is lawlessness!  At this point, I am also noticing that somehow Christianity is taking the blame for our current situation.  As silly as the church looks on television, and with the lies being spun, and with people ignorantly supporting ideas on behalf of Jesus (without backing) I can see how.  The end goal will be an ultimate loss of freedom of worship and speech, and it will be because people demanded it!  Trickery!  As for actual Bible thumpers - the ones that actually read and obey and understand the Bible - these people will have nothing to do with the destruction of this great country.

                  Michelle M.

                  On Mar 26, 2008, at 5:39 PM, George Blumel wrote:

                  What is your basis for the claim of Executive Orders, below. Please site same. Or, try to stick with facts in future.  Thank you, Geo.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:04 AM
                  Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Introduction: David Stenger


                     Mixing politics and religion is the worst thing that could happen in our country and probably the only good thing to come out of the tax code is the prevention of same.
                    The last thing we need is churches cramming their particular beliefs down people's throats in the political arena, the christian fundamentalists are what has helped to destroy the GOP but running off good people who disagree with the premise that we must all love Jesus to be good citizens.
                    And if you bible thumpers disagree with the above statement, consider this:  Islam is the fastest growning religion in the world, do YOU want these people running the entire political show, including all elections?
                    While you ponder the Constitution and enjoy the incredible foresight of the founding fathers, decrying those who claim it is a "living" document which can be changed on a whim, consider that you are not smarter than those founders and have no business trying to tweak it for your own religious benefit.
                    But what do I know?  I'm just a lowly seminary graduate, former minister and former history teacher.
                  Sandy Harmon
                   
                  NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection, Benjamin Franklin was right.




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                  Checked by AVG. 
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