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Re: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

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  • George Blumel
    No thanks. At best, he is 50% in my book. About like McCain. I couldn t vote for either of them much less help them get the nomination. Surely you can do
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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      No thanks.  At best, he is 50% in my book.  About like McCain.   I couldn't vote for either of them much less help them get the nomination. Surely you can do better than Hagel. I think the war against Islamo-fascism is critical and the wiretaps on those terrorists are necessary and prudent.  Hagel's appeasement stance, his big-spending are not offset by his few good votes like against Fed Ed. His vote for the Balanced Budget Amendment just means he would raise taxes given his spending record.  -Geo.
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 5:36 PM
      Subject: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

      Hi group,
       
      Well, the 2008 presidential election is looking fairly bleak for advocates
      of limited government.  That said, I am encouraged by Senator Chuck
      Hagel on many important issues, including the War in Iraq (doesn't
      support more troops and doesn't support continuing the war), immigration
      (pro-immigration) , bureaucracy (voted no on COPS program), education
      (voted no on No Child Left Behind and wants education left to the states),
      and balanced budget (voted yes on balanced budget amendment).
       
      Areas where Hagel needs to improve include taxes, the Patriot Act
      (he voted yes for reauthorization but no on extending the wiretap
      provision), drugs (voted yes on increasing penalties for drug offenses),
      and free speech (voted yes on flag burning amendment).
       
      Overall, not terrible considering the other GOP nominees. If you'd like
      to see Senator Hagel run as a Republican, contact his offices (see
      http://hagel. senate.gov/ index.cfm? FuseAction= Offices.Home) or send
      an e-mail to chuck_hagel@ hagel.senate. gov and hagel@sandhillspac. com.
       
      Encourage him to run!
       
      --Aaron

    • Bob White
      The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison. --Bob White-- home:727-490-7363,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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        The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison.

        --Bob White-- home:727-490-7363, cell:727-463-6061
        Polina  Nastya my blog:  http://milkchaser.blogspot.com/

        "Where you used to be, there is a hole in the world, which I find myself constantly walking around in the daytime, and falling into at night. I miss you like hell.
        - Edna St. Vincent Millay
        "

      • David Briggman
        I think Newt s about the best this party can hope for. Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I ll llikely work for Newt.
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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          I think Newt's about the best this party can hope for.

          Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I'll llikely work for Newt.



          On 1/7/07, Bob White <oxanastapol-rlc@...> wrote:

          The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison.


        • Jason Burkins
          If Newt is the best we can do, we re in serious trouble. Time for somebody new. Gingrich is too tainted in the public eye. Jason Burkins jason@burkins.net
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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            If Newt is the best we can do, we're in serious trouble. 

            Time for somebody new. Gingrich is too tainted in the public eye. 


            On Jan 7, 2007, at 10:14 PM, David Briggman wrote:

            I think Newt's about the best this party can hope for.

            Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I'll llikely work for Newt.



            On 1/7/07, Bob White <oxanastapol-rlc@yahoo.com> wrote:

            The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison.




          • steven s.
            I would be willing to encourage him to run AS A DEMOCRAT! surely he is closer to the never to be missed chaffee than he is to any republican I like steve
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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              I  would be willing to encourage him to run AS A DEMOCRAT!  surely he is closer to the never to be missed chaffee than he is to any republican I like
              steve
              p.s. thanks aaron,  for pointing out how NON RLC he is!

              George Blumel wrote:

              No thanks.  At best, he is 50% in my book.  About like McCain.   I couldn't vote for either of them much less help them get the nomination. Surely you can do better than Hagel. I think the war against Islamo-fascism is critical and the wiretaps on those terrorists are necessary and prudent.  Hagel's appeasement stance, his big-spending are not offset by his few good votes like against Fed Ed. His vote for the Balanced Budget Amendment just means he would raise taxes given his spending record.  -Geo.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 5:36 PM
              Subject: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

              Hi group,
               
              Well, the 2008 presidential election is looking fairly bleak for advocates
              of limited government.  That said, I am encouraged by Senator Chuck
              Hagel on many important issues, including the War in Iraq (doesn't
              support more troops and doesn't support continuing the war), immigration
              (pro-immigration) , bureaucracy (voted no on COPS program), education
              (voted no on No Child Left Behind and wants education left to the states),
              and balanced budget (voted yes on balanced budget amendment).
               
              Areas where Hagel needs to improve include taxes, the Patriot Act
              (he voted yes for reauthorization but no on extending the wiretap
              provision), drugs (voted yes on increasing penalties for drug offenses),
              and free speech (voted yes on flag burning amendment).
               
              Overall, not terrible considering the other GOP nominees. If you'd like
              to see Senator Hagel run as a Republican, contact his offices (see
              http://hagel. senate.gov/ index.cfm? FuseAction= Offices.Home) or send
              an e-mail to chuck_hagel@ hagel.senate. gov and hagel@sandhillspac. com.
               
              Encourage him to run!
               
              --Aaron
            • David Briggman
              Here s the latest Gallup poll (early December): *Gallup Poll*. Dec. 11-14, 2006. N=425 Republicans and Republican leaners nationwide. MoE ± 6. * Next, I m
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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                Here's the latest Gallup poll (early December):

                Gallup Poll. Dec. 11-14, 2006. N=425 Republicans and Republican leaners nationwide. MoE ± 6.

                "Next, I'm going to read a list of people who may be running in the Republican primary for president in the next election. After I read all the names, please tell me which of those candidates you would be most likely to support for the Republican nomination for president in the year 2008, or if you would support someone else. . . ." Names rotated


                I consider both McCain and Gulliani to both be unelectable because the "Christian Conservatives" would likely not support either of them...that having been said, we have the following:

                John McCain

                28

                Rudy Giuliani

                28

                Condoleezza Rice

                12

                Newt Gingrich

                8

                Mitt Romney

                4



                Brownback, Huckabee, Pataki, Tommy Thompson, Other, None, Unsure follow in that order.



              • Chuck Moulton
                ... I don t think Chuck Hagel s company has has enough voting machines in the key electoral states for him to win the presidency.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 7, 2007
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                  > Well, the 2008 presidential election is looking fairly bleak
                  > for advocates of limited government. That said, I am
                  > encouraged by Senator Chuck Hagel on many important issues

                  I don't think Chuck Hagel's company has has enough voting machines in
                  the key electoral states for him to win the presidency.

                  http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-3.pdf

                  -Chuck Moulton
                • George Blumel
                  We ARE in serious trouble. In this dearth of candidates that we have, Newt is the best of a bad lot. So far. At least he knows all the issues and is clear
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                    We ARE in serious trouble. In this dearth of candidates that we have, Newt is the best of a bad lot. So far. At least he knows all the issues and is clear where he stands. I'm hoping for that Knight on the white horse. Mark Sanford is a good man.  Who else is even remotely possible out there?
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

                    If Newt is the best we can do, we're in serious trouble. 


                    Time for somebody new. Gingrich is too tainted in the public eye. 


                    On Jan 7, 2007, at 10:14 PM, David Briggman wrote:

                    I think Newt's about the best this party can hope for.

                    Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I'll llikely work for Newt.



                    On 1/7/07, Bob White <oxanastapol- rlc@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison.




                  • George Blumel
                    Ron Paul? He used to be the best. If he did run maybe he can get Buchanan to be his VP --they re both strong protectionists now. ... From: David Briggman To:
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                      Ron Paul?  He used to be the best. If he did run maybe he can get Buchanan to be his VP --they're both strong protectionists now.  
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

                      I think Newt's about the best this party can hope for.

                      Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I'll llikely work for Newt.



                      On 1/7/07, Bob White <oxanastapol- rlc@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      The best thing about Hagel running for President would be that he would make the others look better by comparison.


                    • Adam J. Bernay
                      If you really think this is how our elections are decided, what are you doing here? _____ From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com]
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                        If you really think this is how our elections are decided, what are you doing here?

                         


                        From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Chuck Moulton
                        Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:57 PM
                        To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

                         

                        > Well, the 2008 presidential election is looking fairly bleak

                        > for advocates of limited government. That said, I am
                        > encouraged by Senator Chuck Hagel on many important issues

                        I don't think Chuck Hagel's company has has enough voting machines in
                        the key electoral states for him to win the presidency.

                        http://www.blackbox voting.org/ bbv_chapter- 3.pdf

                        -Chuck Moulton

                      • Chuck Moulton
                        ... I m trying to change things for the better before we are so forgone into authoritarianism that there is no hope in the electoral process. Part of the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                          > > I don't think Chuck Hagel's company has has enough voting
                          > > machines in the key electoral states for him to win the
                          > > presidency.
                          > >
                          > > http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-3.pdf

                          > If you really think this is how our elections are decided, what
                          > are you doing here?

                          I'm trying to change things for the better before we are so forgone
                          into authoritarianism that there is no hope in the electoral process.
                          Part of the needed reforms are a voter verifiable paper trail on all
                          voting machines.

                          -Chuck Moulton
                        • Jason Burkins
                          ... Amen to that!
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                            Part of the needed reforms are a voter verifiable paper trail on all
                            voting machines.







                            Amen to that!
                          • DGHarrison
                            I m trying to change things for the better before we are so forgone into authoritarianism that there is no hope in the electoral process. Part of the needed
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                              I'm trying to change things for the better before we are so forgone into authoritarianism that there is no hope in the electoral process. Part of the needed reforms are a voter verifiable paper trail on all voting machines. -- Chuck Moulton

                              I have long opposed voting methods that do not retain a valid paper ballot that can be counted post election, as during recounts. Voting machines that rely solely on ephemeral digital electronic data are a deadly threat to the people. Digital data can be manipulated too easily, regardless of any supposed safe-guards programmed into the system. (I don't do electronic gambling for this very reason, not even video slot machines pass my smell test.)

                              But, it just occurs to me that there is another sinister aspect to a change from voting via paper ballots only. When we voted by writing on paper ballots, we knew that any close election could be determined by a physical recount of the ballots. Ideally, there should be no difference in the final. If one candidate got 15,000 votes and the other got 14,999 votes, then there should be 15,000 paper ballots for the one and 14,999 for the other. The recount is supposed to determine whether there were any mechanical errors caused by the counting mechanism, such as getting two ballots stuck together and counting as one. Unfortunately, human error is often an unintentional part of counting as well. Humans can be fumble fingered, too.

                              That being said, the recount can be done over and over (according to the dictates of the law) to ensure that the final tally can be replicated to demonstrate that there was no fat-finger counting involved. As a practical matter, it is likely that the final tally could come out differently with each recount (which is why the law usually dictates how many times the ballots can be recounted).

                              It has become fashionable to demand that digital voting methods be modified to provide each voter with a receipt confirming how he voted on his electronic ballot. This could be done just like the register tapes you get from the grocery store. Because we don't trust that the electronic ballot is an accurate (uncorrupted) representation of how we voted, this demand for a receipt is becoming a strong issue. There is still the possibility that a corrupted digital system could physically print out exactly what you keyed into the voting machine, even while it still electronically alters your input in favor of the opposition. Yikes!

                              But, here's the part that just occurred to me. If we are all able to walk away from the polling place with a paper receipt, I fear that the "secret ballot" will become even more easily corrupted. The way this would come about is that crooked politicians and/or their supporters could more easily offer bribes for votes. We all know that bribery is happening already. Voters are offered perks and payouts if they vote for the right guy. Personally, if someone were to offer me money to vote for a candidate, I'd take the money and then vote for the guy's opponent. How would they ever know who I voted for? Unless the briber has deep pockets, he may not want to spend that much money without a way to verify that he is getting what he's paying for. And, even if he thinks he bought enough votes to win the election but still loses, he'd never know whose legs to break. Perhaps that alone keeps bribery from being a bigger problem than it is.

                              The paper receipt, however, changes all that. Voters can be asked to show their receipt in order to obtain the payoff. It would not only be more cost effective, but it would also give bent-nosed brutalists an opportunity to orchestrate a reign of terror. Whole towns could be targeted with the vilest of intimidation. The thugs would know whose legs to break. Just think about the strong-arm tactics of unions, and understand how they would be able to manipulate elections without even spending the pay-off cash. All they would have to do is threaten workers with potential job losses on top of threats of physical violence.

                              No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper receipt that shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be compromised. And even if no one ever did threaten violence to influence the outcome of an election, what good would the paper receipt be to a recount? Not only would it be impossible to track down all the individual voters, many will have discarded, lost, or accidentally destroyed their receipts. On top of that, the "chain of custody," so to speak, will have been broken. Who could ever trust the veracity of any subsequent recount?

                              I find that I have come out against providing voters with a paper receipt showing how they voted. The only solution for limiting corruption in the voting process is to require paper ballots whose chain of custody remains intact. Cumbersome though it may be, I'd rather be a little inconvenienced than a lot disenfranchised.

                              Douglas G. Harrison
                              New Hope, Minnesota



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                            • George Blumel
                              I was a bit harsh on Hagel in previous response --his record on spending is not as bad as I thought. In checking National Taxpayers Union standings, Hagel has
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                I was a bit harsh on Hagel in previous response --his record on spending is not as bad as I thought. In checking National Taxpayers Union standings, Hagel has a B+ for most of his career. My other criticism stands -- he is not sufficiently concerned about defense as he does not support the war on terrorism which is really a war against an enemy dedicated to destroying or controlling us --Islamo-fascism.   -Geo.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:40 PM
                                Subject: [RLC-Action] Re: Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

                                > > I don't think Chuck Hagel's company has has enough voting
                                > > machines in the key electoral states for him to win the
                                > > presidency.
                                > >
                                > > http://www.blackbox voting.org/ bbv_chapter- 3.pdf

                                > If you really think this is how our elections are decided, what
                                > are you doing here?

                                I'm trying to change things for the better before we are so forgone
                                into authoritarianism that there is no hope in the electoral process.
                                Part of the needed reforms are a voter verifiable paper trail on all
                                voting machines.

                                -Chuck Moulton

                              • Robbie Honerkamp
                                ... I don t think anyone is seriously advocating giving voters a receipt they can take with them, for the reasons you mentioned (buying votes, chain of custody
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                  DGHarrison wrote:
                                  >
                                  > No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper receipt that
                                  > shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be compromised. And even
                                  > if no one ever did threaten violence to influence the outcome of an
                                  > election, what good would the paper receipt be to a recount? Not only
                                  > would it be impossible to track down all the individual voters, many
                                  > will have discarded, lost, or accidentally destroyed their receipts. On
                                  > top of that, the "chain of custody," so to speak, will have been broken.
                                  > Who could ever trust the veracity of any subsequent recount?

                                  I don't think anyone is seriously advocating giving voters a receipt
                                  they can take with them, for the reasons you mentioned (buying votes,
                                  chain of custody issues). The push for a paper trail is all about
                                  keeping an official paper copy of each vote. As I understand it, the way
                                  this works on most machines that support this feature is there is a
                                  small receipt printer that prints out the voter's ballot. The paper is
                                  scrolled underneath a clear cover so that the voter can see their ballot
                                  but cannot access it. If the voter agrees with what is on the printout,
                                  they press a button on the voting machine screen, the electronic ballot
                                  is cast, and the paper ballot is rolled up.

                                  Paper trails are very important- so important, I would argue that it
                                  should be illegal to implement electronic voting machines without a
                                  paper trail that can be audited to verify the accuracy of an individual
                                  machine.

                                  Robbie
                                • Adam J. Bernay
                                  I personally have no problem compromising the secret ballot. I also have no problem with people being allowed to buy votes. because I don t think it would
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                    I personally have no problem “compromising the secret ballot.”  I also have no problem with people being allowed to buy votes… because I don’t think it would happen.  Who in their right mind would pay that kind of money to win an election?  And if they have that kind of money, they probably know things that would be good for a legislator or executive to know anyway.

                                     

                                    But I just don’t see it happening.  How much would people charge?  Let’s say an individual vote costs $20.  Other than small local races, you are talking HUGE SUMS!  Who would do that?

                                     

                                    I do believe in paper trails, but it should be both one in the backup ballot box and one to the voter.  If I have a right to my medical records, surely I have a right to my ballot.

                                     


                                    From: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com [mailto: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Robbie Honerkamp
                                    Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:45 PM
                                    To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Re: Encourage Senator Hagel to run for President!

                                     

                                    DGHarrison wrote:

                                    >
                                    > No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper receipt that
                                    > shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be compromised. And even
                                    > if no one ever did threaten violence to influence the outcome of an
                                    > election, what good would the paper receipt be to a recount? Not only
                                    > would it be impossible to track down all the individual voters, many
                                    > will have discarded, lost, or accidentally destroyed their receipts. On
                                    > top of that, the "chain of custody," so to speak, will have been
                                    broken.
                                    > Who could ever trust the veracity of any subsequent recount?

                                    I don't think anyone is seriously advocating giving voters a receipt
                                    they can take with them, for the reasons you mentioned (buying votes,
                                    chain of custody issues). The push for a paper trail is all about
                                    keeping an official paper copy of each vote. As I understand it, the way
                                    this works on most machines that support this feature is there is a
                                    small receipt printer that prints out the voter's ballot. The paper is
                                    scrolled underneath a clear cover so that the voter can see their ballot
                                    but cannot access it. If the voter agrees with what is on the printout,
                                    they press a button on the voting machine screen, the electronic ballot
                                    is cast, and the paper ballot is rolled up.

                                    Paper trails are very important- so important, I would argue that it
                                    should be illegal to implement electronic voting machines without a
                                    paper trail that can be audited to verify the accuracy of an individual
                                    machine.

                                    Robbie

                                  • Bob White
                                    The goal is a secret, secure and verifiable vote. Paper may have a place in this, but let it not be so insecure that goons in, for example, Kings County
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                      The goal is a secret, secure and verifiable vote.  Paper may have a place in this, but let it not be so insecure that goons in, for example, Kings County Washington can "find" a missing ballot box to win an election.

                                      It's bad enough that some states don't require id to be presented at the polling place prior to voting (and none require purple stains on the thumb afterward).

                                      What if the receipt merely returned an id number uniquely identifying the vote cast.  The voter could then bring this receipt to a controlled place (e.g. voter reg office) after the election and re-read the choices he had made.

                                      It's not clear to me what good this would be as it would be a bad idea to allow someone to change the recorded vote.  The time to verify one's vote is before casting it -- and the touchscreen machines (at least in Fla) do that.  But it would be reassuring if one's recorded vote could be verified later on, proving that one's vote was recorded properly even though that wouldn't prove that it was added to the official tally.


                                      Robbie Honerkamp <robbie@...> wrote:
                                      DGHarrison wrote:
                                      >
                                      > No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper receipt that
                                      > shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be compromised. And even
                                      > if no one ever did threaten violence to influence the outcome of an
                                      > election, what good would the paper receipt be to a recount? Not only
                                      > would it be impossible to track down all the individual voters, many
                                      > will have discarded, lost, or accidentally destroyed their receipts. On
                                      > top of that, the "chain of custody," so to speak, will have been broken.
                                      > Who could ever trust the veracity of any subsequent recount?

                                      I don't think anyone is seriously advocating giving voters a receipt
                                      they can take with them, for the reasons you mentioned (buying votes,
                                      chain of custody issues). The push for a paper trail is all about
                                      keeping an official paper copy of each vote. As I understand it, the way
                                      this works on most machines that support this feature is there is a
                                      small receipt printer that prints out the voter's ballot. The paper is
                                      scrolled underneath a clear cover so that the voter can see their ballot
                                      but cannot access it. If the voter agrees with what is on the printout,
                                      they press a button on the voting machine screen, the electronic ballot
                                      is cast, and the paper ballot is rolled up.

                                      Paper trails are very important- so important, I would argue that it
                                      should be illegal to implement electronic voting machines without a
                                      paper trail that can be audited to verify the accuracy of an individual
                                      machine.

                                      Robbie



                                      --Bob White-- home:727-490-7363, cell:727-463-6061
                                      Polina  Nastya my blog:  http://milkchaser.blogspot.com/

                                      "Where you used to be, there is a hole in the world, which I find myself constantly walking around in the daytime, and falling into at night. I miss you like hell.
                                      - Edna St. Vincent Millay
                                      "

                                    • George Blumel
                                      With all of those voting problems add the multi-languages. I thought it was a requirement for citizenship that you had to read English. So, is the Spanish on
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                            With all of those voting problems add the multi-languages. I thought it was a requirement for citizenship that you had to read English. So, is the Spanish on our ballots for the illegals? 
                                         
                                            A good book to read on this subject: Stealing Elections -How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy by John Fund (Encounter Books, San Francisco).
                                         
                                                                                                                                                            -Geo.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Bob White
                                        Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 8:38 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Secure, Verifiable Ballots

                                        The goal is a secret, secure and verifiable vote.  Paper may have a place in this, but let it not be so insecure that goons in, for example, Kings County Washington can "find" a missing ballot box to win an election.

                                        It's bad enough that some states don't require id to be presented at the polling place prior to voting (and none require purple stains on the thumb afterward).

                                        What if the receipt merely returned an id number uniquely identifying the vote cast.  The voter could then bring this receipt to a controlled place (e.g. voter reg office) after the election and re-read the choices he had made.

                                        It's not clear to me what good this would be as it would be a bad idea to allow someone to change the recorded vote.  The time to verify one's vote is before casting it -- and the touchscreen machines (at least in Fla) do that.  But it would be reassuring if one's recorded vote could be verified later on, proving that one's vote was recorded properly even though that wouldn't prove that it was added to the official tally.


                                        Robbie Honerkamp <robbie@shorty. com> wrote:

                                        DGHarrison wrote:
                                        >
                                        > No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper receipt that
                                        > shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be compromised. And even
                                        > if no one ever did threaten violence to influence the outcome of an
                                        > election, what good would the paper receipt be to a recount? Not only
                                        > would it be impossible to track down all the individual voters, many
                                        > will have discarded, lost, or accidentally destroyed their receipts. On
                                        > top of that, the "chain of custody," so to speak, will have been broken.
                                        > Who could ever trust the veracity of any subsequent recount?

                                        I don't think anyone is seriously advocating giving voters a receipt
                                        they can take with them, for the reasons you mentioned (buying votes,
                                        chain of custody issues). The push for a paper trail is all about
                                        keeping an official paper copy of each vote. As I understand it, the way
                                        this works on most machines that support this feature is there is a
                                        small receipt printer that prints out the voter's ballot. The paper is
                                        scrolled underneath a clear cover so that the voter can see their ballot
                                        but cannot access it. If the voter agrees with what is on the printout,
                                        they press a button on the voting machine screen, the electronic ballot
                                        is cast, and the paper ballot is rolled up.

                                        Paper trails are very important- so important, I would argue that it
                                        should be illegal to implement electronic voting machines without a
                                        paper trail that can be audited to verify the accuracy of an individual
                                        machine.

                                        Robbie



                                        --Bob White-- home:727-490- 7363, cell:727-463- 6061
                                        Polina  Nastya my blog:  http://milkchaser. blogspot. com/

                                        "Where you used to be, there is a hole in the world, which I find myself constantly walking around in the daytime, and falling into at night. I miss you like hell.
                                        - Edna St. Vincent Millay
                                        "

                                      • Chuck Moulton
                                        ... Not necessarily. Encryption allows the best of both worlds. Here is one technique (there are many others):
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                          > No, I don't think it is a good idea to give voters a paper
                                          > receipt that shows how they voted. The secret ballot would be
                                          > compromised.

                                          Not necessarily. Encryption allows the best of both worlds.

                                          Here is one technique (there are many others):
                                          http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/voting/papers/Chaum-SecretBallotReceiptsTrueVoterVerifiableElections.pdf

                                          Sorry, it seems like action lists always degenerate into discussion
                                          lists without strict moderation.

                                          -Chuck Moulton
                                        • DGHarrison
                                          I personally have no problem compromising the secret ballot. I also have no problem with people being allowed to buy votes... because I don t think it would
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 8, 2007
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                                            I personally have no problem “compromising the secret ballot.”  I also have no problem with people being allowed to buy votes… because I don’t think it would happen.  Who in their right mind would pay that kind of money to win an election?  And if they have that kind of money, they probably know things that would be good for a legislator or executive to know anyway.

                                            But I just don’t see it happening.  How much would people charge?  Let’s say an individual vote costs $20.  Other than small local races, you are talking HUGE SUMS!  Who would do that?

                                            I do believe in paper trails, but it should be both one in the backup ballot box and one to the voter.  If I have a right to my medical records, surely I have a right to my ballot. -- Adam

                                            A good point. The vote of the typical voter is purchased indirectly, with political promises amounting to billions of dollars rather than with cash, and it would cost a fortune to buy the votes of the average American directly. But then again, we've already heard that the Democrats have obtained the homeless and soup kitchen vote with bribes of cigarettes. Such votes might not cost them that much after all, and a receipt would allow them to monitor and control their vote buying scheme. I guess I'm just a cynic.

                                            Okay. That's my last comment on this issue. The moderator will soon suggest that we take it to another discussion board.

                                            Doug Harrison
                                            Minnesota


                                            --- USFamily.Net - $8.25/mo! -- Highspeed - $19.99/mo! ---

                                          • rickgaber
                                            ... SecretBallotReceiptsTrueVoterVerifiableElections.pdf I m not persuaded that precluding the danger of the selling of votes is worth such a
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                              --- In RLC-Action message 1562, "Chuck Moulton" <chuck@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Here is one technique (there are many others):
                                              > http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/voting/papers/Chaum-
                                              SecretBallotReceiptsTrueVoterVerifiableElections.pdf

                                              I'm not persuaded that precluding the "danger" of the "selling of
                                              votes" is worth such a highly-complicated, intensely high-tech
                                              system. Here's a MUCH, much
                                              simpler one:
                                              http://FreedomKeys.com/gabersystem.htm
                                            • Ray Holtorf
                                              I seem to remember Thommy Thompson as being ideal when Bush snapped him up for HHS. Does anyone know his pre-Bush administration record? There was also Tom
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                                I seem to remember Thommy Thompson as being ideal when
                                                Bush snapped him up
                                                for HHS. Does anyone know his pre-Bush administration
                                                record? There was
                                                also Tom Ridge, and a Governor from Michigan. I recall
                                                each had excellent
                                                libertarian-ish qualities, and then all were snapped
                                                up and placed in big
                                                government departments in the Bush administration. At
                                                first I thought it
                                                was a sign those departments would be reigned in - now
                                                it seems an effort
                                                to remove them from the race.

                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "George Blumel" <gblumel@...>
                                                To: RLC-Action@yahoogroups.com
                                                Cc: Jason Burkins
                                                Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:15:55 -0500
                                                Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to
                                                run for President!

                                                > We ARE in serious trouble. In this dearth of
                                                candidates that we have, Newt
                                                > is the best of a bad lot. So far. At least he knows
                                                all the issues and is
                                                > clear where he stands. I'm hoping for that Knight on
                                                the white horse.
                                                > Mark Sanford is a good man. Who else is even
                                                remotely possible out there?
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: Jason Burkins
                                                > To: RLC-Action@yahoogro ups.com
                                                > Cc: Jason Burkins
                                                > Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 10:27 PM
                                                > Subject: Re: [RLC-Action] Encourage Senator Hagel to
                                                run for President!
                                                >
                                                > If Newt is the best we can do, we're in serious
                                                trouble.
                                                >
                                                > Time for somebody new. Gingrich is too tainted in
                                                the public eye.
                                                >
                                                > Jason Burkins
                                                > jason@burkins. net
                                                > Libertas Consulting
                                                >
                                                > On Jan 7, 2007, at 10:14 PM, David Briggman wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I think Newt's about the best this party can hope
                                                for.
                                                >
                                                > Unless Ron Paul steps up, which is doubtful, I'll
                                                llikely work for Newt.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On 1/7/07, Bob White <oxanastapol-rlc@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > The best thing about Hagel running for President
                                                would be that he would
                                                > make the others look better by comparison.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

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                                              • Adrian Augustine
                                                Well I don t want to bash our former Governor, hes far better than our current Democratic one, but here s my analysis... a) the bad news Tommy never really was
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 9, 2007
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                                                  Well I don't want to bash our former Governor, hes far better than our current Democratic one, but here's my analysis...

                                                  a) the bad news
                                                  Tommy never really was a fiscal conservative on spending issues. Many Republicans secretly blame him for the large deficits his GOP successor inherited when the recession hit. After heading up HHS Tommy has also displayed some nanny state tendencies that are troubling.

                                                  b) neutral to positve
                                                  He was really good on tax cuts, but then again every GOP governor in the 90s was considering the overflowing tax revenue that was streaming in from the economy.

                                                  c) the good news
                                                  He was a pioneer when it came to reforming welfare and implementing school choice before it got traction in other states and at the federal level. Tommy never was much of a social conservative in the evangelical sense. For the lack of a better term I'll describe him as a secular traditionalist.

                                                  While Tommy may not be that impressive of a speaker, he is a really good retail politician. I don't know how his small town Wisconsin charm(population of Elroy, WI: 1,758) will work in other states but Iowa and New Hampshire seem like pretty good testing grounds.

                                                  Anyway, I think Tommy is like most GOP candidates for the nomination, some good, some bad...nothing perfect.

                                                  Adrian Augustine
                                                  Wisconsin

                                                  Ray Holtorf <rayholtorf@...> wrote:
                                                  I seem to remember Thommy Thompson as being ideal when
                                                  Bush snapped him up
                                                  for HHS. Does anyone know his pre-Bush administration
                                                  record? There was
                                                  also Tom Ridge, and a Governor from Michigan. I recall
                                                  each had excellent
                                                  libertarian- ish qualities, and then all were snapped
                                                  up and placed in big
                                                  government departments in the Bush administration. At
                                                  first I thought it
                                                  was a sign those departments would be reigned in - now
                                                  it seems an effort
                                                  to remove them from the race.

                                                  .


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